Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

To allow for special conditions such as object with redundent systems to name but one example. We're not interested in special conditions, we're interested in a general rule.

 

And we have that general rule.

 

 

 

 

For Walls it much more than doubling, for dirt it's much less.

 

But again those rules are for affects on areas and thus beyond the scope of the question before us.

What is the general rule for mass destroyed by BOD damage?

 

You yourself indicated that in fact the rules against objects is really a squaring of mass destroyed below 0 BOD. And the rules themselves state a very different impact on humans/characters.

[Fox1]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

What is the general rule for mass destroyed by BOD damage?.

 

For a single target?

 

+1 body = 2x mass, if you want it completely dead/destroyed total damage must equal or exceed 2x Body.

 

 

You yourself indicated that in fact the rules against objects is really a squaring of mass destroyed below 0 BOD.

 

No, that the rule for affect an area of a wall.

 

And the rules themselves state a very different impact on humans/characters.

 

The long standing HERO system view on that is that objects don't have any method of damage control like living creatures- thus 0 body on a object is 'destroyed' while for living creatures it's only 'dying' (Can't provide a cite now, that will have to come later if you wish).

 

However...

 

Destroyed for an object only means unusable for it's intended purpose. It could be repaired or savaged by outside action. It takes the same amount of damage (x2) to completely destroy an object as it does to kill a person.

 

So they really aren't treated the same.

 

The only times a difference comes into play where we start talking not about objects or creatures, but about hexes of material be it lying there on the floor or part of a wall.

 

At that point HERO becomes confused because it's general rules produce unreasoned results and it tries to deal with it by exception.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

For a single target?

 

+1 body = 2x mass, if you want it completely dead/destroyed total damage must equal or exceed 2x Body.

 

 

No, that the rule for affect an area of a wall.

 

 

The long standing HERO system view on that is that objects don't have any method of damage control like living creatures- thus 0 body on a object is 'destroyed' while for living creatures it's only 'dying' (Can't provide a cite now, that will have to come later if you wish).

 

However...

 

Destroyed for an object only means unusable for it's intended purpose. It could be repaired or savaged by outside action. It takes the same amount of damage (x2) to completely destroy an object as it does to kill a person.

 

So they really aren't treated the same.

 

The only times a difference comes into play where we start talking not about objects or creatures, but about hexes of material be it lying there on the floor or part of a wall.

 

At that point HERO becomes confused because it's general rules produce unreasoned results and it tries to deal with it by exception.

Again, where do the rules state or where is it clear that +1 BOD of DAMAGE equals x2 mass? I understand there's a logical inference from the comments in the rule regarding the building of BOD for an object. Not trying to be contentious, but rather to be specific whether we're talking about an interpretation or an actual rule. I believe we're still in an interpretive phase here. I'll ask Steve - if he refuses to answer on the grounds it's a philosophy thing or such, I think it's not a rule, but if he says it's a rule, that's fine with me. Or if someone can point to a more clear cite.

[Fox1]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I believe we're still in an interpretive phase here. I'll ask Steve

 

If you're going to do that, you may was well bypass Body and get to the direct issue at hand.

 

Does +5 strength indicated that the damage being dealt out is 2x effect in the same way it indicates it's 2x lift?

 

I think we've reached an impasse at this point. I don't see this as a interpretive phase. I don't see any other possible answer to the question given the rules before us.

 

And frankly, I wouldn't necessary believe a counter statement by Steve Long. In addition to the fact I consider his judgements a little unsound at times (i.e. some of the 5th edition changes), I believe such answers are also subject more to needs of the company than they are to actual fact.

 

I would however believe Steve in that it is the official statement on the subject. So that has value to some.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

For this speculation' date=' I am assuming that somehow the hole remains open "somehow" - which would mean the magma just keeps flowing out onto the surface![/quote']That's a pretty big assumption there, z. It would take a tremendous amount of force to keep the hole open, as you've got almost immesurable pressures lower down trying to collapse that hole. Anything you could use to keep it open (like a hollow tube of force field) would also have to be permeable to magma, or the magma won't be able to flow up through the tube (because the force field, holding the hole open, would also prevent the magma from entering into the hole). And if it's permeable to magma, it's a pretty good bet that other material is going to be able to 'ooze' through that force field and thus collapse/plug the hole anyway.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Ok, let me throw my hat into the ring. Let's define what we mean by "Blowing up the Earth."

 

An EB with no adders, may be assumed to have an active area of effect of less than a hex, without an area effect advantage. This makes sense, since a standard EB hits a charcater standing in a hex, but does affect the desk, the wall, the telephone in the hex, without the area effect advantage.

 

So, a naked energy blast of sufficient power could blow a hole in the Earth. That would RESULT in the destruction of the Earth, very likely. But the EB would not affect all of the earth equally and simultaneously. It would 'kill' the Earth, however.

 

If you wanted to affect the entire Earth simultaneously, you would have to buy an EB with an Area Effect advantage sufficient to cover the diameter of the Earth. Then, the EB would be affecting the Earth simultaneuously over the entire covered area of effect, and that would allow the EB to blast the entire sphere into smithereens.

 

Either is "Blowing Up The Earth," I guess, but the second description is more accurate described what I think of when someone says "Blow up the Earth."

 

The next issue is one of thickness or depth. Let's say Earth averaged has a BODY of 15. You cannot just assume that the entire thickness of the Earth is 15--it has many, many, many thickness layers. I dont have the books in front of me, but I am sure there MUST be some rules about how thick a material is in order to have 'x' BODY. Once you know this, you divide total thickness by this number, and multiply the result by the BODY for the material. You need to know the DEF as well. Roll your damage. Subtract 'layer one' defense and body. Subtract layer 2 DEF, the Body. Proceed until it becomes clear that you blew the sucker up, or stopped somewhere. That's how you do it.

 

The basis for destroying the Earth can be found first by looking at the rule that 2 X mass = + 1 BODY. From this rule we can give the Earth a BODY rating based on its mass (thickness and other elements are irrelevant, all we need is its mass). The second rule we need to understand is that by doing 2 X the BODY to an object, we can totally destroy that object (and there is no size limit involved, it is only a question of BODY).

 

These statements lead us to the logical conclusion that (based on the HERO rules as written) a 200d6 EB would totally destroy the Earth.

 

(For more data--see Breaking Things FREd starting on page 302)

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

"As objects double in mass, they increase in Body by +1."

 

This, if true, is a terrible rule.

 

Let's say we have a wall that take 15 body (between BODY and DEF) to destroy.

 

So now, lets double the wall's thickness. With one more BODY rolled, we go thru both walls? And on and on? Terrible.

Are you saying that you'd rather have a system where 2 X Mass = 2 X Body instead of 2 X Mass = + 1 BODY?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Ah! I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that, no matter how much Body you do, you create a hole that is roughly the size of your character, or the "weapon" being used to create it. This may vary a bit, but you aren't going to create a hole that's as wide as your height MegaScaled up a level. Nope. For that, you're going to need a whole heck of a lot of Growth or a MegaScaled, Area of Effect Power. That's your size, and that's the "size" of your weapon, at least in order of magnitude. (Note that this would probably work decently for the Death Star, which might have an effect that's MegaScaled one level, but come on! It's the size of a moon!)

 

Now, in terms of doing the Earth's Body, fine. You do 86 Body or whatever, and you bore a hole in the Earth. I can see Superman doing this, can't you? Okay, so really that should probably be expressed through Tunneling, but let's ignore that for now.

 

For creatures and objects that have function, you can cause them to cease functioning by doing their Body in damage. If you do twice that, you can pretty much eliminate any possibility of their being "repaired." I don't really hold with the "completely destroyed as in there's nothing recognizable left of the thing except a little debris," aspect of "destruction." So: great! You've done twice the Earth's Body! You've completely "defeated" it! It's no longer doing...well, er, yeah. Good for you!

[Ki-rin]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Champsguy,

 

If you want to attack a hex rather than a object within a hex, or if you want to attack everything within a group of hexes, you have to have the appropriate level of Area Effect Ad. That's not my opinion. That's the rules.

 

Similarly, breaking the earth into asteriods means attacking the entire earth at once to some degree or another. IOW, attacking the earth as one object. IOW, you have to attack a significant _volume_ of the earth. HERO does not have a "Volume Effect" Ad. HERO deals with volumes by pretending they are layers of areas. This works reasonably well as long as the layers total thickness is relatively thin. It breaks down otherwise.

 

Systems designed to manipulate areas with tweaks for layering are not going to adequately handle the manipulation of volumes, particularly solid volumes. One has to go back to first principles and start talking about manipulating the actual masses involved while being as system-consistent as possible under such circumstances. I've tried to do that and make it clear both what the letter and spirit of HERO canon are under such circumstances. Let's try it again a slightly different way.

 

The earth masses 5.97x10^27 g and has a volume of 1.08 x 10^27 cm^3 and therefore has an average density of 5.52 g/cm^3. In game terms that means we need to do 5.5 Body per cm^3 to "break" a chunk of earth. 2x that to vaporize it. That attack "breaks" a specific cm^3 of earth.

 

Puncturing a 1" hex (AKA 2 meter) hole through the earth with the rules requires the use of the Area Affect (One Hex) and Area Affect (Line) Ad to the appropriate depth of the earth. Attacking _all_ of the mass of the earth at once then requires that we widen that 1 Hex earth deep hole using Area Effect (Radius) to ~3,000,000 hexes so that we approximate the "Volume Effect" Ad.

 

Then we have to amp the attack up enough to overcome the Earth's DEF. DEF is an abstraction that represents the size, composition, and structural integrity of the inanimate object being attacked. There are no published HERO documents stating what Earth's DEF is. The best we can do is again try to figure it out from first principles given what we know DEF represents. DEF goes up as things get harder, bigger, and more structurally sound. The earth is _extremely_ structurally sound. The earth is _very_ big. The earth's average density is greater than that of Titanium. Hmmm. All of that argues for a high DEF. How high is certainly a valid discussion.

 

My guess given the HERO source material on terminal velocity and how DEF seems to increase with size, composition, and structural soundness is that Earth's DEF is probably between 60 and 75. Planets of earth size made of less dense materials (with therefore a lower gravitational constant) would have a lower DEF. Planets of earth size made of denser materials would have a higher DEF.

 

Thus we have, being careful to be "true" to system and using nothing but what we know about the actual physical object in question and the rules, created a plausible and logically consistent way to "break the earth" as one object. It's an attack powerful enough to overcome 60 to 75 DEF and still do 5.5 Body with the Area Effect (One Hex) Ad and that has enough both the Area Effect (Line) Ad and Area Effect (Radius) Ad to be deep enough and wide enough to attack the entire volume of the earth as one object. While the numbers may not be eactly right, the reasoning is completely consistent with both the letter and the spirit of the rules of the game.

 

The "200 Body destroys the Earth" example at best breaks a relatively thin Earth-sized area, not all the mass in an earth sized volume.

 

Oh, and it might be best to lose the "I'm the expert around here." Argument from Authority attitude. First, it doesn't change the logic or correctness of your argument in the least. Second, some of the people around here have been gaming longer than you've been alive. Some of us _know_ people like Jackson, and Patterson, and Sustarre, and Cole, and Perrin, and Arneson, and ... etc. If such people aren't making Arguments from Authority, perhaps you should not either?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

the big problem here is that we have a "never the twain shall meet" issue that CAN'T be resolved by rehashing the same arguements over and over and over.

If we go strictly by the rules, we have to think in terms of the earth following the double mass = +1 body progresion, or the wall body chart... both of which make (as proven ad nasueum in this and other threads) the earth pretty easy to destroy. If you approach it from a "hex by hex" basis, which there is ALSO systemic support for, tho not stated as clearly or uncompromisingly, it takes a alot more work, but approaches more realistic numbers. In erither case, its becoming a bit of a pointless arguement. The basic Hero exponential scale is broken in regards to real world mechanics, not suprising as it was originally written for supers to be able to pull tricks that you'd see in comics.

For creatures and objects that have function, you can cause them to cease functioning by doing their Body in damage. If you do twice that, you can pretty much eliminate any possibility of their being "repaired." I don't really hold with the "completely destroyed as in there's nothing recognizable left of the thing except a little debris," aspect of "destruction." So: great! You've done twice the Earth's Body! You've completely "defeated" it! It's no longer doing...well, er, yeah. Good for you!

Well.. on this one....letsee... if you consider X2 mass = +1 body, X2 an objects body reflects that it is "broken", "killed", or "Defeated", by the tropes of the system that means all powers are now non functional. So even if, by your reasoning, you haven't blown up the earth, just killed it. So you've removed its powers. like Movement (It spins, and rotates around the sun), Life support (breathing and eating, AOE megascale) for the atmosphere and biosphere, summon for the birthrate, attacks for the deathrate (continous small extra time transform living being to dead one, SFX time) and for natural disasters, I'm guessing the core stops being hot (no idea what game effect this is...REC on the Earths END reserve?)

thats just right off the top of my head

So it's no longer doing... well, er, yeah, quite a lot.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Ah! I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that, no matter how much Body you do, you create a hole that is roughly the size of your character, or the "weapon" being used to create it.

Is this simply your opinion, or are you contending that is actually what the HERO rules state?

 

 

It clearly states (FREd page 304) in the rules that a hole in a wall will double in size for each + 1 BODY. It does not state anything about size limitations on that hole.

 

Now, in terms of doing the Earth's Body, fine. You do 86 Body or whatever, and you bore a hole in the Earth. I can see Superman doing this, can't you? Okay, so really that should probably be expressed through Tunneling, but let's ignore that for now.

 

For creatures and objects that have function, you can cause them to cease functioning by doing their Body in damage. If you do twice that, you can pretty much eliminate any possibility of their being "repaired." I don't really hold with the "completely destroyed as in there's nothing recognizable left of the thing except a little debris," aspect of "destruction." So: great! You've done twice the Earth's Body! You've completely "defeated" it! It's no longer doing...well, er, yeah. Good for you!

The book uses the term "destroy fully." (FREd page 302)

 

Which sounds like the same thing as complete destruction to me.

 

Can you back up your opinion with some actual quote from the book?

 

Basically it sounds to me like what you want to say is that you disagree with the book. In that you would not let a character "destroy fully" the Earth, no matter how much damage was done.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

The basic Hero exponential scale is broken in regards to real world mechanics, not suprising as it was originally written for supers to be able to pull tricks that you'd see in comics.

Are you saying that exponential scales are not suited to real world mechanics?

[austenandrews]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I usually rule that large objects (bigger than a couple of hexes) can only be destroyed by AE attacks. Otherwise you've got crossbow bolts taking apart galleons. I never really codified it, though (except in passing in FHC2).

[atlascott]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Are you saying that you'd rather have a system where 2 X Mass = 2 X Body instead of 2 X Mass = + 1 BODY?

 

In this context, yes. It makes absolutely no sense for a 10' thick brick wall to be only slightly less difficult to breach than a 3' brick wall. No sense.

 

In the 'real world' if you give a man a pick, he can perhaps dig through the 3' wall in 20 minutes of swinging the pick. It will take him more than an hour to get thru 10 feet of wall. But, according to this application of her HERO system, he can plow thru the wall 10' wall in about--I dont know--22 minutes.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Well.. on this one....letsee... if you consider X2 mass = +1 body, X2 an objects body reflects that it is "broken", "killed", or "Defeated", by the tropes of the system that means all powers are now non functional. So even if, by your reasoning, you haven't blown up the earth, just killed it. So you've removed its powers. like Movement (It spins, and rotates around the sun), Life support (breathing and eating, AOE megascale) for the atmosphere and biosphere, summon for the birthrate, attacks for the deathrate (continous small extra time transform living being to dead one, SFX time) and for natural disasters, I'm guessing the core stops being hot (no idea what game effect this is...REC on the Earths END reserve?)

thats just right off the top of my head

So it's no longer doing... well, er, yeah, quite a lot.

No. My judgements are based on the specific words: "fully destroyed" (FREd page 302)

 

(As in, if you do more than 2 X BODY to an object it will be "FULLY DESTROYED")

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Are you saying that exponential scales are not suited to real world mechanics?

No, in general I like exponential scales, but at the higher power levels it begins to get very counter intuitive and becomes logically broken. its not the exponential nature of hero that bugs me, its the way it is applied in many circumstances without more rules specifically addressed to the topic. What originally got me thinking about this recently was actually the hero system bestiary. It was the second 5th edition book I picked up, and the write up for the Engine of Destruction spurred me to begin thinking about scale issues. That and the fact that it is specifically written up as a "planet destroying" antagonist. The multipower is called "Planet-Destroying Cannon" and is written as a 10d6 AP rka, megascale on range. Which, to my mind, should do exactly f**k-all to a Earth sized target. For that matter, on the same scale, big frellin lizards are pretty easy to kill as well. The problem with an exponential progression is that it doesn't factor cumulative effect into the equasion. 2 hits from a 10d6 RKA are not equal, in game terms, to one shot from a 10d6+1 RKA, even if the extra DC is supposedly roughly equal to the extra force needed to destroy the extra double mass.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

No. My judgements are based on the specific words: "fully destroyed" (FREd page 302)

 

(As in, if you do more than 2 X BODY to an object it will be "FULLY DESTROYED")

I can read too, and know what the book says...

I was simply pointing out to prestidigitator that even by his opinion that double a targets body = dead, not destroyed, a dead planet has a lot more effects in game terms than just, well, being there. (Which is what he seemed to be implying)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

In this context, yes. It makes absolutely no sense for a 10' thick brick wall to be only slightly less difficult to breach than a 3' brick wall. No sense.

 

In the 'real world' if you give a man a pick, he can perhaps dig through the 3' wall in 20 minutes of swinging the pick. It will take him more than an hour to get thru 10 feet of wall. But, according to this application of her HERO system, he can plow thru the wall 10' wall in about--I dont know--22 minutes.

 

First off, this addresses a number of the points, I'm just hanging it on an atlascott quote, not having a go at anyone in particular This is the new, nice me, after all. Having said which.....

 

No. You're working under a misconception. If it takes 20 minutes to get through 3' of wall it will take 3.333 times longer to get through 10'

 

If you are able to apply twice as much energy in the swinging of your pick (i.e. increase the BODY each swing does) then you'll get through significantly quicker, taking into consideration DEF and BODY of the wall. A little bit more damage has a substantially increased effect. The point is the damage all has to be applied in one go, you can't just add up smaller chunks to make a big (w)hole: you need bigger individual hits.

 

The man with the pick can't simply up his damage though: he'd need to re-design himself with more strength or a better pick, or both.

 

Incidentally using the wall method, and assuming that the Earth is a stone wall, you'd need to do 177 Body to knock a man sized hole through the planet. For another 25 BODY you could knock a planet sized hole through the planet, i.e. destroy it, that's a little over 200 BODY. Point is that has to eb in ONE HIT, so, trust me, the Earth is not easy to destroy.

 

Name one character with a 200d6 EB, or a STR of 1000; go on.

 

Oh, and a planet with a planet sized hole in it is destroyed. Maybe not vapourised, but destroyed, all right.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

No' date=' in general I like exponential scales, but at the higher power levels it begins to get very counter intuitive and becomes logically broken. its not the exponential nature of hero that bugs me, its the way it is applied in many circumstances without more rules specifically addressed to the topic. What originally got me thinking about this recently was actually the hero system bestiary. It was the second 5th edition book I picked up, and the write up for the Engine of Destruction spurred me to begin thinking about scale issues. That and the fact that it is specifically written up as a "planet destroying" antagonist. The multipower is called "Planet-Destroying Cannon" and is written as a 10d6 AP rka, megascale on range. Which, to my mind, should do exactly f**k-all to a Earth sized target. For that matter, on the same scale, big frellin lizards are pretty easy to kill as well. The problem with an exponential progression is that it doesn't factor cumulative effect into the equasion. 2 hits from a 10d6 RKA are not equal, in game terms, to one shot from a 10d6+1 RKA, even if the extra DC is supposedly roughly equal to the extra force needed to destroy the extra double mass.[/quote']

 

 

The 10d6megascaleRKA would certainly kill everything on the planet, bar a few superheroes. Near enough for government work.

 

It depends how you apply the damage: if you consider that area effects apply full damage to each hex the fill, bye-bye planet. I'd probably let it char the crust but not any deeper than a couple of metres: the planet would still survive, even if life on it did not.

 

OTOH a single 200d6 EB probably wouldn't destroy a planet either: it may have the energy but it isn't going to do a good job of transferring it to a target that large - there's going to be blow-through.

 

You want a planet destroyer, I'd want you build it with a huge amount of damage causing capacity and a massive area effect.

 

Anyway, if you want silliness in the exponential application of the system, consider this:

 

There is a portaloo, consisting of a prefab wooden hut with four cubicles inside. The walls are DEF4, BODY 3 (7 BODY damage to penetrate), the cubicle walls are DEF 3, BODY 2 (5 BODY damage to penetrate) and there are three of them. Each cubicle is about a metre wide.

 

To blow a hole right through the portaloo you'd need to do 29 BODY (7x2+5x3).

 

Now if you fill the entire thing with concrete and treat it as a single wall four metres thick, you can blow a hole through it with 21 BODY (concrete is DEF 6 and a 4 metre thich stone wall requires 15 BODY to knock a hole through).

 

Odd, that.

 

The exponential system works fine IMO, even at very big number level, but like any system, you need to apply a bit of common sense. I don't have any, so if you see some lying around, email it over.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Sean, I'm with you on this one...except that the planetbuster isn't writen as a megascale AOE... only megascale range, so it can hit from across the solar syatem, but its still only a standard 10d6 AP RKA. which lets it take out a few hexs worth of stone in my way of thinking.

More fun/silly examples....

 

I think, in my quick responces earlier, I may have stumbled on the crux of the problem....

 

for the exponential mass/damage/body scale to really work right, no attack should ever do additional rolled body after the first attack. To inflict more Body damage on the target with subsequent shots, you should have to hit the target with an exponentially increasing number of shots for each additional pip of Body damage.

This would make high mass targets appropriately difficult to take out, and would be completly counter to the rest of the game system as well as the "is it fun?" litmus test. It would however be the only way to model inflicting damage that follows the same rules as the current ones for determining damage absorbtion.

And while we're bouncing things around...why are living targets harder to break than inanimate ones? Complex systems are easier to foul up than simple ones, which is reflected already, but biological systems are some of the most complex. hell...a failure in a square millimeter of artey wall can be fatal in the wrong location... but living things are still generically tougher than inanimate solid objects?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

At the risk of being obvious, HERO system Area Effect Ads affect _Area_. Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

 

Best way I know to do that system-wise is to buy both the appropriate amount of the Area Effect (Line) and Area Effect (Radius) and/or Area Effect (Hex) Ads.

 

Figuring the proper DEF for a reasonably solid or solid volume when the game system is geared for Areas is more difficult.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

At the risk of being obvious, HERO system Area Effect Ads affect _Area_. Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

 

Best way I know to do that system-wise is to buy both the appropriate amount of the Area Effect (Line) and Area Effect (Radius) and/or Area Effect (Hex) Ads.

 

Figuring the proper DEF for a reasonably solid or solid volume when the game system is geared for Areas is more difficult.

 

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, AOE attacks are not 2 dimensonal, but 3. Can't give a revised Ed page page ref, but in Fred its on page 159

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Well.. on this one....letsee... if you consider X2 mass = +1 body, X2 an objects body reflects that it is "broken", "killed", or "Defeated", by the tropes of the system that means all powers are now non functional. So even if, by your reasoning, you haven't blown up the earth, just killed it. So you've removed its powers. like Movement (It spins, and rotates around the sun), Life support (breathing and eating, AOE megascale) for the atmosphere and biosphere, summon for the birthrate, attacks for the deathrate (continous small extra time transform living being to dead one, SFX time) and for natural disasters, I'm guessing the core stops being hot (no idea what game effect this is...REC on the Earths END reserve?)

thats just right off the top of my head

So it's no longer doing... well, er, yeah, quite a lot.

Actually, in terms of story we tend to think of the Earth as a place; an environment. Neither is it an object or a vehicle/base with powers that can be broken. (Aside: are you saying that if I break the Earth I won't die of old age? I don't have to buy Life Support? )

 

Is this simply your opinion, or are you contending that is actually what the HERO rules state?

 

It clearly states (FREd page 304) in the rules that a hole in a wall will double in size for each + 1 BODY. It does not state anything about size limitations on that hole.

It is mostly my opinion, but I would prefer to call it my use of a little common sense and reasonableness to address an issue of scale that really isn't handled (well?) in the explicit rules. It is how I would handle the situation if I were GMing.

 

The book uses the term "destroy fully." (FREd page 302)

 

Which sounds like the same thing as complete destruction to me.

 

Can you back up your opinion with some actual quote from the book?

 

Basically it sounds to me like what you want to say is that you disagree with the book. In that you would not let a character "destroy fully" the Earth, no matter how much damage was done.

A quote from the book. Nope. Not at all. I am completely aware of the use of the term, "destory fully," that the book uses. I am also not necessarily saying that I disagree with the book. I am merely interpreting, "destroy," in a way that again, seems reasonable to me. I just don't think that, according to the way we typically think about and deal with the Earth in most stories and most games, destroying it functionally achieves any great result. Hence the Body given for a hex of dirt. So you destroyed a hex of dirt? It's not an opponent. It's not an opponent's equipment. You could view it as an obstacle, but you don't have to smash it completely into little bitty bits in order to get through that obstacle.

 

Remember that Hero is a system about function, not about specific interpretations. The system is there to support your interpretations. Hence Special Effects.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

Now all you have to do is give a specific page number where the book actually makes this statement.

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

A quote from the book. Nope. Not at all. I am completely aware of the use of the term, "destory fully," that the book uses. I am also not necessarily saying that I disagree with the book. I am merely interpreting, "destroy," in a way that again, seems reasonable to me.

It seems to me that you'd have to take that kind of thing into account on a character by character basis.

 

So what if I have a character whose power is defined as a "Disintegration Beam." How much damage would my character have to do to disintegrate the Planet? Or are you going to tell me it can't be done in HERO?