Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Actually, in terms of story we tend to think of the Earth as a place; an environment. Neither is it an object or a vehicle/base with powers that can be broken. (Aside: are you saying that if I break the Earth I won't die of old age? I don't have to buy Life Support? )

Well... if doing the Earths Body in damage leaves it "Broken", then I recon you would have to buy LS so you could eat and breathe

Don't know about the aging thing tho... that probably shouldn't be in the Earths Write up as a Base, but rather in the Universe write up

The joy and occasionall misery of this system is that it CAN do anything.

What's happening here is that every person has his own spin on the topic.

So we're devolving into semantics here.... the geek version of I've got a bigger **** than you do

I tend to agree that in most games the planetary scale really doesn't have much game effect, but in some genres (cosmic supers, Star Hero) it very well may. I think its a crying shame that Steve's responce to Zornwil's inquiry about this was basically "Don't worry, be happy"

[Warp9]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

The problem with an exponential progression is that it doesn't factor cumulative effect into the equasion. 2 hits from a 10d6 RKA are not equal' date=' in game terms, to one shot from a 10d6+1 RKA, even if the extra DC is supposedly roughly equal to the extra force needed to destroy the extra double mass.[/quote']

That is not a problem with an exponential progression.

 

I will agree that it is a problem with the way HERO handles exponential damage; damage on an exponential scale should not add up in a linear fashion. But I'd fix that before getting rid of the exponential scale.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

HERO does not have a "Volume Effect" Ad. HERO deals with volumes by pretending they are layers of areas. This works reasonably well as long as the layers total thickness is relatively thin. It breaks down otherwise.

I beg to differ. Hero's, "Area of Effect," actually represents volume if you choose to consider more than just the ground. Radial, "Area of Effects," are in fact spheres (although I sometimes interpret them as cylinders with height equal to diameter or radius for some effects--this isn't standard, but I like it). Cones are, well, cones. Lines are lines (well, cylinders/parallelpipids that are one hex by one hex by their length).

 

The earth masses 5.97x10^27 g and has a volume of 1.08 x 10^27 cm^3 and therefore has an average density of 5.52 g/cm^3. In game terms that means we need to do 5.5 Body per cm^3 to "break" a chunk of earth. 2x that to vaporize it. That attack "breaks" a specific cm^3 of earth.

Actually, because the scale is exponential, you can't just pick an arbitrary volume as representative. For example, if you were to say that the mass of one cubic centimeter is 5 g, and try to calculate its Body, you will actually get something negative, since 5g is approximately 100 kg times 2^-14.5. Likewise, if you try to consider the Earth as one object, you will get eighty-something Body, as someone pointed out. The problem is that either way, you are picking an arbitrary volume, and linearly multiplying the Body of that volume by the number of volumes in the whole you are discussing (one volume in the case of those considering the whole Earth, and a whole heck of a lot of volumes if you are considering one cubic centimeter).

 

I submit that a hex is probably the best volume to use for determining the Body of a test volume, and that the Earth is probably best represented as a crud-load of 1 hex volumes, some of which have more DEF and Body than others.

 

For those who wish to treat all objects, big an small, as simply an object, I say: fine. How about we just treat the Milky Way Galaxy as one big object on the galactic scale? It's mass is approximately 10^12 solar masses, or 1.4x10^42 kg. That's about 100 kg x 2^133. What's a 100 kg object supposed to be again? 5 Body? 20 Body? Oh well. Let's assume 20 Body. So the Milky Way has about 153 Body. That means we only have to do about 306 to completely destroy it. Now the Milky Way is a disc, approximately 120,000 lightyears across and 1000 lightyears thick. If we treat it as a cylinder, that means its volume is about 9x10^63 m^3. So its density is 1.5x10^-21 kg/m^3 = 1.5x10^-21 g/cm^3. Let's be generous and give it a DEF of 1. So all it takes is a 307 Body attack to destroy the galaxy. Isn't that about two Earth's worth?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

So all it takes is a 307 Body attack to destroy the galaxy. Isn't that about two Earth's worth?

 

Nice example. The problem is getting your head round exponential damage. Whilst it is all an interesting exercise to work out the big numbers you're never going to have an attack big enough to apply the damage in one single hit, so the point is utterly moot.

 

It's like the argument over how much damage a nuke should do. Some people want lots, some people want less (I'm in the 12-16 dice killing range, personally), but you don't set nukes off and work out the game effects unless you are a nutter. You'll never need stats for a nuke unless you are playing a very odd game or purely as an intellectual exercise. I've used one once in a game involving a villain who was supposed to be indestructible, and the villain survived, not becasue he had hundreds of points of resistant defence but because the story required that the nuke go off and he survived.

 

Anyway, fascinating as the big numbers are that's not where your problem is with the exponential scale - it's at the other end. Why? Because if you ever did roll 300d6 you'd get a Body result within a couple of percent of 300. If you roll 4d6 you can realistically get a result anywhere from 0 to 8: an enormous and unrealistic variation if the progression is exponential.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Does this strike anyone else as odd?

 

First we have a thread that was initially about how both a 43 STR character and a 13 STR Character with a 10 point Bo Staff and 10 points of Martial Arts can end up doing the exact same 8.5d6 damage.

 

Now we have people on the same thread contemplating how much body damage it would take to destroy the galaxy?!?

 

Did I miss the Rod Serling intro or something?

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

We have control of the vertical....

 

STR damage for punches doesn't make much sense anyway: damage is a function of momentum, so it is more a matter of how fast you can move your fist not how strong you are (although that does play a part).

 

That could explain why the guy with the stick can do as much damage as the guy with the muscles.

 

Perhaps it is a character design philosophy fault rather than a system fault. We assume that the amount of damage our strength allows us to do is the 'right' amount. We don't assume that the figured PD we get from STR is the 'right' amount - we add to it. If 'Mr STR of 100 Men' should be hitting harder, we should be spending points on HA.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

That's a pretty big assumption there' date=' z. It would take a tremendous amount of force to keep the hole open, as you've got almost immesurable pressures lower down trying to collapse that hole. Anything you could use to keep it open (like a hollow tube of force field) would [i']also[/i] have to be permeable to magma, or the magma won't be able to flow up through the tube (because the force field, holding the hole open, would also prevent the magma from entering into the hole). And if it's permeable to magma, it's a pretty good bet that other material is going to be able to 'ooze' through that force field and thus collapse/plug the hole anyway.

Oh, I know it's almost certainly not possible as far as we can see right now. It's just an idle musing.

[Solomon]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Caveat: I've only read the first 5 or so pages, I suppose the thread branched in some unforeseen direction but I can't read all this stuff tonight. So I'm getting back at the original question, I'll be catching up with the rest tomorrow.

 

So does the fact that a man with the Strength of 100 Men only hits as hard as a fairly athletic guy with a stick bug anyone else?

 

It doesn't bug me. For one thing, it has already been said that you don't get 8,5d6 damage out of a Bo stick with Heroic rules (damage caps and minimum STR). And if you're using Superheroic rules, you already threw "realism" (for all it's worth) out of the window.

 

Then, a 8,5d6 Martial attack is actually weaker than a 8,5d6 normal attack. It gets less Knockback and, as per Martial Arts rules, is limited in its ability to affect object. The STR 43 guy can rip a car in half. The guy with a Bo can smash the headlights and scratch the paint job.

 

Last but not least, I object to the notion that having Fast Strike represents "a year or so of training". HERO Characters with even the minimum 10 points in Martial Arts are accomplished, veteran fighter. They might as well have learned it overnight from an ancient master, if appropriate for the campaign, but that level of ability equates several years' worth of real-world training.

 

Let's take weapons and superpowers out of this: let's say an Olympic-level powerlifter has STR 25, for 5d6 damage, while a fairly fit (STR 15) veteran pugilist might do a 7d6 Offensive Strike. I don't find this hard to believe. Sure the lifter is much stronger, but the pugilist knows how to hurt you. Given the choice, I'd take a punch from the lifter over a hook from the pugilist any time.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

If you're going to do that, you may was well bypass Body and get to the direct issue at hand.

 

Does +5 strength indicated that the damage being dealt out is 2x effect in the same way it indicates it's 2x lift?

 

I think we've reached an impasse at this point. I don't see this as a interpretive phase. I don't see any other possible answer to the question given the rules before us.

 

And frankly, I wouldn't necessary believe a counter statement by Steve Long. In addition to the fact I consider his judgements a little unsound at times (i.e. some of the 5th edition changes), I believe such answers are also subject more to needs of the company than they are to actual fact.

 

I would however believe Steve in that it is the official statement on the subject. So that has value to some.

I often don't agree with Steve, either, but he IS the man.

 

As to the basic matter, depends what you mean by x2 effect. Each DC of course does not double damage in actual BOD or STUN deducted, of course, we all know that. But as a theoretical principle of energy? Heck, I don't know and frankly I just don't see a value in knowing, I don't see a fundamental need in a heroic game system to suss out theoretical physics principles so much as replicate how damage "seems" to work in both the genre and in a general sort of tactical wargaming way. In wargaming damage is replicated by studying damage effects from various levels of weaponry and manpower. So the basis, to me, is how the system replicates that sort of thing based on that general sort of data as in THIS regard our heritage is very much wargaming.

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

We have control of the vertical....

 

STR damage for punches doesn't make much sense anyway: damage is a function of momentum, so it is more a matter of how fast you can move your fist not how strong you are (although that does play a part).

 

That could explain why the guy with the stick can do as much damage as the guy with the muscles.

 

Perhaps it is a character design philosophy fault rather than a system fault. We assume that the amount of damage our strength allows us to do is the 'right' amount. We don't assume that the figured PD we get from STR is the 'right' amount - we add to it. If 'Mr STR of 100 Men' should be hitting harder, we should be spending points on HA.

Actually, I was about to say something similar as I was getting to your post - this "confusion" may be a feature, not a bug. You can do it a few different ways depending on genre and level of realism, without having to rescale characters for different genres. If you want Superman in "Silver Age World" to break the planet, as well as all those pesky villains to be scary and capable of the same, just go with the simplest "it's a wall" version and no area requirement and BANGO! If you want Superman in "Realism World" to break the planet, make it AoE and all that and now he's going to have to work at it.

 

On my other note, Steve's answer was understandably not an answer, exactly, but I think it betrays at the least that there's definitely no canonical obvious ruling on this. Aside from that, I do wish to say to Fox1 that by all means I'm not going to say that Steve's answer indicates he's wrong - it just indicates he might be. Just as I might be - although I don't think hell froze over... (only kidding on that last phrase!)

[Fox1]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

On my other note' date=' Steve's answer was understandably not an answer, exactly, but I think it betrays at the least that there's definitely no canonical obvious ruling on this. Aside from that, I do wish to say to Fox1 that by all means I'm not going to say that Steve's answer indicates he's wrong - it just indicates he might be. [/quote']

 

It was the answer I expected given some past experience. Steve Long isnt one to give answers that is likely to upset people, given a choice he'll leave any such questions up to players. Vague is to his taste in many things.

 

He's a fine editor however if not designer, and the system is likely lucky to have him whatever his other faults are. Without him the books just wouldn't have gotten written.

 

So, we have an offical answer. Do it how it best fits your campaign and call it good.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Champsguy,

 

If you want to attack a hex rather than a object within a hex, or if you want to attack everything within a group of hexes, you have to have the appropriate level of Area Effect Ad. That's not my opinion. That's the rules.

 

Funny, I've never seen that rule. Got a page cite? I happen to disagree with you, and I'd like you to show me specifically where I'm wrong.

 

Similarly, breaking the earth into asteriods means attacking the entire earth at once to some degree or another. IOW, attacking the earth as one object. IOW, you have to attack a significant _volume_ of the earth. HERO does not have a "Volume Effect" Ad. HERO deals with volumes by pretending they are layers of areas. This works reasonably well as long as the layers total thickness is relatively thin. It breaks down otherwise.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about here. You've completely lost me. I see nothing in the rules about "layers of areas". Again, I want to see what page you're pulling that from.

 

Systems designed to manipulate areas with tweaks for layering are not going to adequately handle the manipulation of volumes, particularly solid volumes. One has to go back to first principles and start talking about manipulating the actual masses involved while being as system-consistent as possible under such circumstances. I've tried to do that and make it clear both what the letter and spirit of HERO canon are under such circumstances. Let's try it again a slightly different way.

 

Okay, maybe a different way will work, because now I'm so lost it's not even funny. You're talking about manipulation of solid volumes, and manipulation of actual masses, and I've got no idea where you're getting this.

 

The earth masses 5.97x10^27 g and has a volume of 1.08 x 10^27 cm^3 and therefore has an average density of 5.52 g/cm^3. In game terms that means we need to do 5.5 Body per cm^3 to "break" a chunk of earth. 2x that to vaporize it. That attack "breaks" a specific cm^3 of earth.

 

But this does not match up with the game stats that are given for hexes of earth.

 

Puncturing a 1" hex (AKA 2 meter) hole through the earth with the rules requires the use of the Area Affect (One Hex) and Area Affect (Line) Ad to the appropriate depth of the earth.

 

No, it doesn't. I refer you again to page 304 of 5th Edition. You can destroy multiple hexes of an object without using an Area Effect advantage. It's right there in the rules. Please show me where the rules state that I need Area Effect. I've looked, and can't seem to find it anywhere. I'd like a specific page number, please.

 

Attacking _all_ of the mass of the earth at once then requires that we widen that 1 Hex earth deep hole using Area Effect (Radius) to ~3,000,000 hexes so that we approximate the "Volume Effect" Ad.

 

Again, I'd like a page number on this, because page 304 says that I can double the size of the hole I've just blown through the earth by adding +1 Body per doubling. It makes no mention of Area Effect or "Volume Effect" being needed.

 

Then we have to amp the attack up enough to overcome the Earth's DEF. DEF is an abstraction that represents the size, composition, and structural integrity of the inanimate object being attacked. There are no published HERO documents stating what Earth's DEF is. The best we can do is again try to figure it out from first principles given what we know DEF represents. DEF goes up as things get harder, bigger, and more structurally sound. The earth is _extremely_ structurally sound. The earth is _very_ big. The earth's average density is greater than that of Titanium. Hmmm. All of that argues for a high DEF. How high is certainly a valid discussion.

 

We've got defenses listed for materials. None of the naturally occuring elements rise above 8. Diamond has an 8 Def. The Ultimate Brick, pg 104. Titanium has a 7 Def. The Ultimate Brick, pg 105. In my example, I granted the Earth a Def of 16.

 

My guess given the HERO source material on terminal velocity and how DEF seems to increase with size, composition, and structural soundness is that Earth's DEF is probably between 60 and 75. Planets of earth size made of less dense materials (with therefore a lower gravitational constant) would have a lower DEF. Planets of earth size made of denser materials would have a higher DEF.

 

I have no idea where you're getting 60 or 75. No idea at all. None of the materials listed anywhere have anywhere close to that Def. Most don't even have a tenth of that Def.

 

Thus we have, being careful to be "true" to system and using nothing but what we know about the actual physical object in question and the rules, created a plausible and logically consistent way to "break the earth" as one object. It's an attack powerful enough to overcome 60 to 75 DEF and still do 5.5 Body with the Area Effect (One Hex) Ad and that has enough both the Area Effect (Line) Ad and Area Effect (Radius) Ad to be deep enough and wide enough to attack the entire volume of the earth as one object. While the numbers may not be eactly right, the reasoning is completely consistent with both the letter and the spirit of the rules of the game.

 

You've quoted no rules at all, which makes me believe that it's NOT in keeping with either the letter or the spirit of the rules of the game. I've just seen you pull out numbers out of thin air. I've provided page citations, and you've avoided them.

 

The "200 Body destroys the Earth" example at best breaks a relatively thin Earth-sized area, not all the mass in an earth sized volume.

 

No, I showed that 104 Body blows an Earth-sized hole through a billion mile wide, 16,000 mile thick vault door. This is not a "relatively thin Earth-sized area".

 

Oh, and it might be best to lose the "I'm the expert around here." Argument from Authority attitude. First, it doesn't change the logic or correctness of your argument in the least. Second, some of the people around here have been gaming longer than you've been alive. Some of us _know_ people like Jackson, and Patterson, and Sustarre, and Cole, and Perrin, and Arneson, and ... etc. If such people aren't making Arguments from Authority, perhaps you should not either?

 

I don't care how long you've been gaming, or who you know. You might have been playing games for longer than my 26 years of life. That just makes you old. My grandma is in her 80s, but she's senile as can be and thinks that Bugs Bunny is President.

 

Do you have any page cites for any of the things you're talking about, or are you just pulling them out of thin air? Can you point me to anything, any printed material in any editions of the rules? Can you show me something written on the back of a cocktail napkin that was written by George MacDonald while he was in a drunken rage at GenCon? Anything???

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

At the risk of being obvious, HERO system Area Effect Ads affect _Area_. Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

 

Best way I know to do that system-wise is to buy both the appropriate amount of the Area Effect (Line) and Area Effect (Radius) and/or Area Effect (Hex) Ads.

 

Figuring the proper DEF for a reasonably solid or solid volume when the game system is geared for Areas is more difficult.

 

Oh, hell no. Are you THAT GUY??? There was some jackass on here several years ago who was going on about Area Effect only being 2 dimensional. You aren't him, are you?

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Now all you have to do is give a specific page number where the book actually makes this statement.

 

He doesn't do page cites. I've asked him numerous times.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Originally Posted by Ki-rin

Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

 

Now all you have to do is give a specific page number where the book actually makes this statement.

 

To expect that something is correct only if it is explicitly written is silly. That's like saying that unless the Bible specifically forbids lying then it's OK to lie. Or to be married to multiple people at once (I'm talking the ladies get multiple mates as well, guys). Etc, etc.

 

While there is not one rule, there is what the Law calls "a preponderance of evidence.":

 

The HERO "bible" clearly states that if you want to hit everything within a HEX, you must make an Area Effect Attack. It is also clearly stated that the default is that you attack a specific part of a hex (something in it), not a hex itself, and not an area.

 

The HERO "bible" calls it an "Area Effect Attack", not a "Volume Effect Attack".

 

In the HERO "bible" Attacking increased thickness in walls is treated seperately and in addition to attacking increased area of walls.

 

The HERO "bible" states that each 2x of mass is +1 Body for objects.

 

Mass of a solid goes up as r^2 in an area. This means that to affect an area of 2r we need to affect 4x as much Body, or +2 Body for each doubling of r in an area (exact match to the "bible's" Breaking Objects rules). Mass of a solid goes up as r^3 in a volume. This means to affect a volume of 2r we need to affect 8x as much Body, or +3 Body for each doubling of r in a volume.

 

QED. to attack A) a specific part of an area, an area, and C) a volume are distinctly different kinds of attacks and must be built accordingly, and the HERO "bible" tells us so.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

To expect that something is correct only if it is explicitly written is silly. That's like saying that unless the Bible specifically forbids lying then it's OK to lie. Or to be married to multiple people at once (I'm talking the ladies get multiple mates as well, guys). Etc, etc.

 

While there is not one rule, there is what the Law calls "a preponderance of evidence.":

 

The HERO "bible" clearly states that if you want to hit everything within a HEX, you must make an Area Effect Attack. It is also clearly stated that the default is that you attack a specific part of a hex (something in it), not a hex itself, and not an area.

 

snipped blah blah blah

 

QED. to attack A) a specific part of an area, an area, and C) a volume are distinctly different kinds of attacks and must be built accordingly, and the HERO "bible" tells us so.

 

Man, you've again provided no page cites, and you've gotten the rules WRONG. You don't know the rules. I don't care if God himself is in your roleplaying group, you're doing it wrong and you don't know the rules.

 

Hero 5th Edition, page 159, second column, paragraph 2, entitled: Area of Effect (Radius):

 

"The area is 1" in all three dimensions for every 10 Character Points in the Power not counting the Area of Effect Advantage."

 

 

You've just, AGAIN, proved that you don't know how the rules work. I don't care if you've been playing for a thousand years. You've been playing wrong all this time. My argument from authority is that I KNOW THE FKCUING RULES!!!!!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

At the risk of being obvious, HERO system Area Effect Ads affect _Area_. Solid objects of equi-dimensional measurement need to have their _Volume_ attacked. Particularly large (>= 1 Hex) equi-dimensional solids.

 

Best way I know to do that system-wise is to buy both the appropriate amount of the Area Effect (Line) and Area Effect (Radius) and/or Area Effect (Hex) Ads.

If that were the case, then Area of Effect attacks would only ever blow off people's feet, since the people are 3D objects and quite obviously if they're standing up the vast majority of their volume is not going to be in the 2D area you're claiming an Area of Effect attack hits.

 

 

Or, if you're really stuck on the 2D area thing, I suppose an Area of Effect attack would only blow off the bottom layer of molecules of their shoes -- but I'm not paying points for that...

[zornwil]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Just for additional clarity, for other reasons I just ran across this and I think it should be noted - 5ER, page 250, there's an additional modifier called "Two-Dimensional", it reduces the AoE Advantage by 1/4, and says "An Area of Effect that normally covers three dimensions (such as Radius or Cone) can be made only 1" high..." It indicates this can also be a 1/4 Limitation for inherent AoE powers (CE, Darkness, etc.).

[atlascott]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

Funny' date=' I've never seen that rule. Got a page cite? I happen to disagree with you, and I'd like you to show me specifically where I'm wrong.[/quote']

 

FRED p 159 "Powers with Area of Effect affect all targets in an area...Area of Effect (One Hex)This Area of Effect covers a single target hex..."

 

 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about here. You've completely lost me. I see nothing in the rules about "layers of areas". Again' date=' I want to see what page you're pulling that from.[/quote']

 

Check out the chart in FREd p. 304 for wall thicknesses. Depending on the material, BODY either adds 1 or 2 BODY for each doubling of thickness, so treating te Earth as "layers" is wrong if you go by the chart, but may be correct, if you heed the dicsussion on page 303, where it says "iF THE FUNCTION COMES FROM MANY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE OBJECT, THEN FIGURE OUT EACH PART SEPARATELY." But this refers to machinery, so it would appear that for each doubling of thickness, 23 should add 2 body, as the rule book chart does for stone, metal and plastic (but only adds 1 BODY for wood).

 

The Earth's diameter is 12756 km. Let's assume Body of 17 for 1 m of metal is comparable for the aggregate planet. About 113 thickness doublings x 2 for each thickness doubling gets us 226, plus 17 Body for the first meter of thickness, is 243 BODY for the entire equitorial thickness of the Earth. It would appear that DEF is unrelated to volume or thickness (FRED p. 303 "...the DEF of an object depends primarily on the material its made from."). SO Earth probably gets an overall DEF of something like an armored wall, or 13. So in a single roll, 256 BODY destroys the earth.

 

And for the record, again, it makes no sense for the second volume of material you are cutting through to cost only 2 body when the first thickness of the exact same material may have cost you 30 BODY.

 

 

 

 

No' date=' it doesn't. I refer you again to page 304 of 5th Edition. You can destroy multiple hexes of an object without using an Area Effect advantage. It's right there in the rules. Please show me where the rules state that I need Area Effect. I've looked, and can't seem to find it [i']anywhere[/i]. I'd like a specific page number, please.

 

FRED p 159 "Powers with Area of Effect affect all targets in an area...Area of Effect (One Hex)This Area of Effect covers a single target hex..."

 

Again' date=' I'd like a page number on this, because page 304 says that I can double the size of the hole I've just blown through the earth by adding +1 Body per doubling. It makes no mention of Area Effect or "Volume Effect" being needed.[/quote']

 

A fairer reading is that you can double a human sized hole IN A HEX for +1 Body. You dont need a full sized hex hole to fit a human body thru. Otherwise, AOE One Hex has no value. So unless you want to concede that AOE One Hex has no purpose...but again, the fiarer reading is that AOE DOES serve a game purpose, and you can double a hole in the wall you just made by doing an additional point of BODY.

 

But then again, maybe the rules DO allow an unlimited doubling of holew size for 1 extra BODY per doubling. Is any of this clarified in 5ER?

[atlascott]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

ANd as to the Bible analogy--yeah, but htis is not Bible study or Church. This is a GAME with RULES. There is nothing wrong with asking for page cites to confirm/deny disparate understandings of the rules. Therer is a speed chart in the HERO system. If you say there isn't, referring to the page discussing the Speed Chart clarifies things quick without alot of subjective, vague understandings of imprecise rules, correct?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I've been quoting from the HERO "bible" all through this thread. Specific page numbers wouldn't add a thing to the discussion. Case in point:

 

Hero 5th Edition, page 159, second column, paragraph 2, entitled: Area of Effect (Radius):

 

"The area is 1" in all three dimensions for every 10 Character Points in the Power not counting the Area of Effect Advantage."

 

Now look at how Area of Effect (Radius) is increased. Each doubling doubles the radius in map hexes, NOT in all three dimenstions. The _Area_, not the _Volume_. Else it would be called "Volume Effect (Radius)".

 

So just buying Area Effect (Radius) to earth size would result in a cylinder 1" high for every 10 AP in the Power with a circumference of earth size, NOT a sphere of earth size. To do that, you have to grow the volume in height in addition to the map hex radius increase.

 

The fairest way to do that would be to create a specific "Volume Effect (Radius)" Ad which had the appropriate cost for 8x the volume affected for every 2x in r. Since we 4x the area for each 2r at a cost of (+1/4), 8x the volume for each 2r should have a cost of something like (+1/2).

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

FRED p 159 "Powers with Area of Effect affect all targets in an area...Area of Effect (One Hex)This Area of Effect covers a single target hex..."

 

Yes, but this says nothing about needing an AE: Hex attack to harm a hex of a substance. This merely says that an AE: Hex attack fills the whole hex. It doesn't say what you want it to say.

 

Check out the chart in FREd p. 304 for wall thicknesses. Depending on the material, BODY either adds 1 or 2 BODY for each doubling of thickness, so treating te Earth as "layers" is wrong if you go by the chart, but may be correct, if you heed the dicsussion on page 303, where it says "iF THE FUNCTION COMES FROM MANY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE OBJECT, THEN FIGURE OUT EACH PART SEPARATELY." But this refers to machinery, so it would appear that for each doubling of thickness, 23 should add 2 body, as the rule book chart does for stone, metal and plastic (but only adds 1 BODY for wood).

 

Yeah, that's the chart I was using.

 

The Earth's diameter is 12756 km. Let's assume Body of 17 for 1 m of metal is comparable for the aggregate planet. About 113 thickness doublings x 2 for each thickness doubling gets us 226, plus 17 Body for the first meter of thickness, is 243 BODY for the entire equitorial thickness of the Earth. It would appear that DEF is unrelated to volume or thickness (FRED p. 303 "...the DEF of an object depends primarily on the material its made from."). SO Earth probably gets an overall DEF of something like an armored wall, or 13. So in a single roll, 256 BODY destroys the earth.

 

No, you got your doublings wrong. You've got too many in there.

 

1 meter of material is 17 Body.

1000 meters (1 km) is 10 doublings. +20 Body

1000 km is 10 more doublings. +20 Body

12,756 km will need 4 doublings (16,000 km). +8 Body

 

That total is 63 Body.

 

And for the record, again, it makes no sense for the second volume of material you are cutting through to cost only 2 body when the first thickness of the exact same material may have cost you 30 BODY.

 

Yes, it does, because damage in Hero isn't linear. A 9mm handgun is listed as about a 1D6 RKA (or thereabouts). A tank cannon is a 8D6 RKA. A nuclear bomb is a 20D6 RKA. Nukes are more that 20 times as powerful as a 9mm pistol. Damage isn't linear, it's exponential. You can debate exactly how much more powerful +1 DC makes an attack (in fact, much of this thread is consumed by it), but the basis of the game is an exponential damage system. A 32 Body attack is supposed to be a lot more powerful than a 30 Body attack.

 

 

FRED p 159 "Powers with Area of Effect affect all targets in an area...Area of Effect (One Hex)This Area of Effect covers a single target hex..."

 

Again, so? This doesn't say that I need AE: Hex to blow up an area sized object. Cars are bigger than one hex, but I don't need Area Effect to blow them up.

 

A fairer reading is that you can double a human sized hole IN A HEX for +1 Body. You dont need a full sized hex hole to fit a human body thru. Otherwise, AOE One Hex has no value. So unless you want to concede that AOE One Hex has no purpose...but again, the fiarer reading is that AOE DOES serve a game purpose, and you can double a hole in the wall you just made by doing an additional point of BODY.

 

Area Effect: Hex was not designed to blow holes in walls. AE: Hex was designed so you can shoot at a DCV of 3.

 

But then again, maybe the rules DO allow an unlimited doubling of holew size for 1 extra BODY per doubling. Is any of this clarified in 5ER?

 

Don't know. Didn't buy 5ER. Not gonna waste 50 bucks when I've got two editions of the rules that both still work well.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

If that were the case' date=' then Area of Effect attacks would only ever blow off people's feet, since the people are 3D objects and quite obviously if they're standing up the vast majority of their [b']volume[/b] is not going to be in the 2D area you're claiming an Area of Effect attack hits.

No, the rules clearly state there's a minimum _volume_ that is affected by a AoE Att. (1" per 10 AP. Most games I've played in treat this as real inches rather than map inches)

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

I've been quoting from the HERO "bible" all through this thread. Specific page numbers wouldn't add a thing to the discussion. Case in point:

 

There's no such thing as a Hero "bible". You're making crap up.

 

You know what? Hero Jesus talked to me and told me that you're wrong. Hero Jesus wrote the Hero Bible. In fact, page 452 of the Hero Bible says "And behold, Ki-Rin is always wrong. And the Lord sayeth, thou shalt listen to Champsguy and be sore afraid, for he is the Munchkin King, and as he holds true on the Champions boards, I shalt hold true in My campaign."

 

It's right there. I've even given a page cite.

 

Hero 5th Edition, page 159, second column, paragraph 2, entitled: Area of Effect (Radius):

 

"The area is 1" in all three dimensions for every 10 Character Points in the Power not counting the Area of Effect Advantage."

 

Now look at how Area of Effect (Radius) is increased. Each doubling doubles the radius in map hexes, NOT in all three dimenstions. The _Area_, not the _Volume_. Else it would be called "Volume Effect (Radius)".

 

So just buying Area Effect (Radius) to earth size would result in a cylinder 1" high for every 10 AP in the Power with a circumference of earth size, NOT a sphere of earth size. To do that, you have to grow the volume in height in addition to the map hex radius increase.

 

The fairest way to do that would be to create a specific "Volume Effect (Radius)" Ad which had the appropriate cost for 8x the volume affected for every 2x in r. Since we 4x the area for each 2r at a cost of (+1/4), 8x the volume for each 2r should have a cost of something like (+1/2).

 

My god you're a jackass. You ARE the guy who was on here before.

 

I'm quoting directly from the book now. Listen and know how wrong you are.

 

"The area is 1" in radius in all three dimensions for every 10 character points in the Power not counting the Area of Effect Advantage. A 1" radius is thus one hex, a 2" radius has a 7-hex "footprint", a 3" radius has a 19-hex footprint, and so on. An Area of Effect (Radius) is spherical, reaching "up" and "down" in addition to the four cardinal directions.

 

Area of Effect (Radius) is a +1 Advantage; you can double the radius for an additional +1/4 Advantage." (emphasis added)

 

You're so wrong that you can't ever be right. Even Hero Jesus says you're wrong.

[atlascott]

Re: Strength Damage: Pathetic or what?

 

If your brick punches someone in the face, do their kneecaps get bruised?

 

If the answer is no, then, a non-area-affect power only affects a small area where it is applied.

 

If you energy blast someone in a hex, do you also energy blast everything else in the hex?

 

Same thing--since it is not area affect, it only hits your target.

 

If you energy blast a car's gas tank, and it explodes, does the whole car become non-functional, or just the gas tank?

 

The whole car because it is an explosion. that ends up affecting the whole car. Your energy blast didnt hit every square inch of the car.

 

If your brick punches a normal surrounded by a group of super villans, and you do +8 Body beyong what you need to take the normal to -10 BODY, do you hit all the surrounding supervillans too?

 

If you shoot your energy blast at a wall and exceed it's BODY and DEF by +4 BODY, do you cause damage to some guy standing 10' away, leaning up against the wall?

 

Can you just shoot your non AE energy blast at the ground where the supervillans are standing, and roll enough body so that it creates a 5" hole that swallows all the villans? If they are standing there, right wherer the EB is affecting the ground they are standing on, shouldnt they take the EB damage too?

 

Under the rules, some of these silly effects may apply. Yuk.