New Power: Adjustment Reserve

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Oh' date='Hyper-Man,that was how Endurance Reserves worked back before 4th Edition,when they were called Endurance Batteries..[/quote']

 

Ah, just proof that I really have no original ideas!

I'll have to go dig those old rules up and compare.

 

I understand some of the reasons they scrapped an Advantage/Limitation Battery version for a Power Battery version in the first place but I think there is room in the system to support both methods now.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Zornwil's post has me thinking about the broken nature of Endurance Reserves. There are probably many older threads on this topic but I will weigh in with some thoughts here anyway.

 

Well, the main differing factor between Charges and an END Reserve is that even with a HUGE Resever, a REC of 1 will fill your Reserve in far less time that recovering Charges will take. A 300 END Reserve will be full in an hour with a 1 REC.To beat that with Charges you need to make them Recoverable (so you can get them back quicker) and even then, you might lose some, break some and no matter what you have to take the time to go get them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Keep in mind that Succor is not a Power unto itself, it's specifically designed variant of Aid, created for a specific purpose, to Aid powers/stat with and END cost instead of Fade Rate. It was never intended to purchased to Zero END. It's similar to how Regeneration became a variant of Healing.

 

So obviously, there is a problem with buy it to Zero END.

Well, I don't see any "problems" that are obvious, nor do I see anything that says or implies that Succor isn't meant to be 0 END (though I see many examples and inferrences that it can be). Maybe this is best left to a different thread and topic though.

 

Ok, and I'm not sure why I can't communicate this clearly, just like an END Reserve will run out of END Points, the Adjustment Reserve will run out of Adjustment Points. In both cases you have a few choices if you want the Reserve to last longer.

1) You can increase the size of the Reserve

2) You can buy a REC for the Reserve

3) You can feed the Reserve with another power

So if you want the Reserve to be more powerful, you going to have to spend more ponts.

 

The only difference between the two Reserves is that one is used to draw END to run powers, while the other is used to draw Active Points to boost powers.

 

And once again, it highlights the idea that the END Reserve could be replaced with a better construct called Reserve, where you could define it with different types of points to simulate different SFX. END points for an END Reserve, Active Points for Boosting Powers, etc...

 

Was my initial post that vague and/or misleading?

 

So your solution for the VPP won't work to match this mechanic.

There is no set time limit, since it totally depends on the powers that are boosted and at what level they boosted and this can change from phase to phase as the character changes his actions.

 

So were back to my question again, how do you propose to match this mechanic with the VPP?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Okay. I do see how it's different, but not necessary. I really can't offer any ideas on balance unless I mess around with the costs though. It does seem to have a questionable cost structure considering it's almost identical to that for a VPP (sorry to keep bringing that up, but it just sounds like a wonky mechanic for a VPP, and the cost just backs that up).

 

But, just to make sure that I've got this right on how it works, lets way I buy a 20 point Adjustment Reserve with a REC of 5 for 20 five points. What can I use it to boost?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Well' date=' the main differing factor between Charges and an END Reserve is that even with a HUGE Resever, a REC of 1 will fill your Reserve in far less time that recovering Charges will take. A 300 END Reserve will be full in an hour with a 1 REC.To beat that with Charges you need to make them Recoverable (so you can get them back quicker) and even then, you might lose some, break some and no matter what you have to take the time to go get them.[/quote']

 

That is quite correct if you assume that the time interval for a Figured End Reserve Recovery is automatically on a per Turn basis. Why not increase the default time interval to a per Hour basis which could then be bought up for a reduction of limitation or increase of advantage value?

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I would like to see someone challenge Christopher's build on whether it adequately works and is cost-balanced for what it's supposed to do, not whether other builds are better.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I would like to see someone challenge Christopher's build on whether it adequately works and is cost-balanced for what it's supposed to do' date=' not whether other builds are better.[/quote']

 

I agree. He's convinced me it's sufficently different that a VPP as to be called a different Power in it's own right. I just disagree with its necessity because it seems you can model it with existing Powers and Frameworks. I'm not entirely certain how it's used though and would like to exlore all of the possibilities and ramifications of it use.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Well' date=' I don't see any "problems" that are obvious, nor do I see anything that says or implies that Succor isn't meant to be 0 END (though I see many examples and inferrences that it can be). Maybe this is best left to a different thread and topic though.[/quote']

Agreed. Which is why I wanted to drop this a few posts ago.

 

Okay. I do see how it's different' date=' but not necessary. I really can't offer any ideas on balance unless I mess around with the costs though. It does seem to have a questionable cost structure considering it's almost identical to that for a VPP (sorry to keep bringing that up, but it just sounds like a wonky mechanic for a VPP, and the cost just backs that up).[/quote']

Actually, from my viewpoint, it's the VPP that looks like a wonky mechanic in trying to fit the elegant mechanic of the Adjustment Reserve. Just opinion though.

 

And there is one Major big difference between the VPP construct and the Adjustment Reserve construct.

 

A VPP will allow each power boosted to be maxxed out Active Point wise, since it require that real cost of all powers are not to exceed the VPP Pool. Each power is allowed to max out at the AP Pool limit. So in essence, you've simply recreated the Succor Power with a VPP at this point. Obviously the costs won't be the same. And there is still no way to limit how long the pool lasts based on Active Points! You can kind of, sort of, limit it by using an END Reserve, but that's not going to reflect using up the pool properly, unless you force all Boosted Portion of the powers to have a x10 END Cost. Hmmm, suddenly the cost skyrockets. And we come back full circle to why I started to this thread to begin with. Too many wonky advantages/limitations/constructs just to mirror a pool mechanic, not to mention what happens when the power grows or how easy it is to use. Why bother to go to all that effort when simpler mechanic is available (via the rules of creating a new power).

 

The Adjustment Reserve has a pool of points (Active Points in this case) to draw from. Period. Either a power draws from the pool or it doesn't. It's no more complicated than how an END Reserve works.

 

But' date=' just to make sure that I've got this right on how it works, lets way I buy a 20 point Adjustment Reserve with a REC of 5 for 20 five points. What can I use it to boost?[/quote']

Correction to your costs: 20 Point Reserve (20 Point Cost), 5 REC (10 Point Cost) = 30 Points Real Cost

For your specific example, they use those 20 Active Points to increase one power at time. Period. How many Active Points they choose to use from the pool is decided when they choose to boost the power. For a constant power they could use 5 Active Ponts for 4 phases or 10 Active Points for 2 phases, etc...

 

How much the power is "effectively" boosted completely depends on that power, since you simply adding Active Points. If you tons of advantages on a power, it's going to lessen the "effective" boost from the Reserve.

 

Examples:

10d6 EB. 5 Per 1d6 [14d6 Boosted] (4 Phases to refill Reserve)

10d6 EB, 5 Per 1d6 [11d6 Boosted] (1 Phase to refill Reserve) You've paid 30 Points to effectively have an 11d6 EB

 

10d6 EB Armor Piercing, 7.5 Per 1d6 [12d6 EB AP Boosted] (5 Points remaining in Reserve and 3 Phases to refill Reserve)

10d6 EB Armor Piercing, 7.5 Per 1d6 [11d6 EB AP Boosted] (6-7 Phases before Reserve is exhausted completely)

 

5" Flight, 2 Per 1" [15" Flight Boosted] (4 Phases to refill Reserve)

5" Flight, 2 Per 1" [7" Flight Boosted] (1 Phase to refill Reserve) You've paid 30 Points to effectively have 7" Flight perpetually

 

Does this make things clearer?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Adjustment Reserve Special/Persistent [sop Sign]

This power allows the character to create a pool of points that can be used to increase powers. The points in the pool are used up each time a power is used to increase it's ability. How many points a power draws from the pool is based on the Active Points that power is currently using. Instant Powers draw from the pool each time they are used. Constant powers draw from pool when it is used and at the beginning of each phase that the power remains in use. Persistent Powers draw points from the pool each segment and turn off once the pool is exhausted.

 

The character may choose a method to refill the Pool, if not the character will be not have any points until another character or power refills it for them.

 

There are two methods of Pool Recovery: Internal and External

Internal Recovery requires the player to purchase REC for the Pool. Internal Recovery occurs once a turn. (Standard advantages apply)

External Recovery requires that the pool be fed by another power (Usually requires player to purchase an adjustment power)

 

Costs No Endurance

 

Reserve Cost: 1 Pt / 1 Active Point (One Power At A Time)

REC Cost: 2 Pts / 1 REC

 

Advantages

Two Powers Simultaneously: +1/4

Four Powers Simultaneously: +1/2

Eight Powers Simultaneously: +1

 

For easy reference by Dust Raven (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I would like to see someone challenge Christopher's build on whether it adequately works and is cost-balanced for what it's supposed to do' date=' not whether other builds are better.[/quote']

And to make this clear once more. One of the reasons for this thread is to make sure the cost reflects properly the benefits granted by the power.

 

So the cost I have now is subject to change if necessary to help balance the power.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Adjustment Reserve Special/Persistent [sop Sign]

This power allows the character to create a pool of points that can be used to increase powers. The points in the pool are used up each time a power is used to increase it's ability. How many points a power draws from the pool is based on the Active Points that power is currently using. Instant Powers draw from the pool each time they are used. Constant powers draw from pool when it is used and at the beginning of each phase that the power remains in use. Persistent Powers draw points from the pool each segment and turn off once the pool is exhausted.

 

The character may choose a method to refill the Pool, if not the character will be not have any points until another character or power refills it for them.

 

There are two methods of Pool Recovery: Internal and External

Internal Recovery requires the player to purchase REC for the Pool. Internal Recovery occurs once a turn. (Standard advantages apply)

External Recovery requires that the pool be fed by another power (Usually requires player to purchase an adjustment power)

 

Costs No Endurance

 

Reserve Cost: 1 Pt / 1 Active Point (One Power At A Time)

REC Cost: 2 Pts / 1 REC

 

Advantages

Two Powers Simultaneously: +1/4

Four Powers Simultaneously: +1/2

Eight Powers Simultaneously: +1

 

For easy reference by Dust Raven (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Ok, so say I have a 30 point Adjustment Reserve with a 5 point Recovery that is Usable to affect Two Powers Simulatneously (+1/4). It costs me 50 Real points. If I use the reserve to increase my STR and DEX by 30 points and then punch somebody using that higher STR to I have to pay the 3 extra END for the punch too?

 

HM

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Ok, so say I have a 30 point Adjustment Reserve with a 5 point Recovery that is Usable to affect Two Powers Simulatneously (+1/4). It costs me 50 Real points. If I use the reserve to increase my STR and DEX by 30 points and then punch somebody using that higher STR to I have to pay the 3 extra END for the punch too?

 

HM

Yes. Remember, this construct gives you Active Points to boost power/stats. If said stats/powers cost end then you need to pay the END base on the total Active Points you are using in the power.

 

Actually, I've revising my one post to Dust Raven, because I have a better way to handle the Active Point drain on the pool.

 

But for example sake, I was rounding up the AP per 1d6, etc...

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Thanks for the updated version of the Power. Must appreciated.

 

 

However, I still don't understand what the restrictions are (if any). If I buy a 20 point Reserve with a 5 recovery, what I can add those 20 points to? Anything? One thing, two if I buy an Advantage?

 

I'm not asking about when I use it, I'm asking about when I buy it. Is the pool itself able to add to anything? So without an Advantage I can, for a single Phase increase by STR to 10 points and add 10 AP to my Damage Shield? And at the end of the Turn I have 5 points back I can then use to boost my EB by 1d6? And say that my Damage is defined as Spiked Armor and my EB is a Blue Light Blast, will that matter? What if my EB is a gun with rubber bullets? Could I still use the Adjustment Reserve to add to it or any of these things, so long as I still have points in it to use?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Thanks for the updated version of the Power. Most appreciated.

No problem. (8^D)

 

However' date=' I still don't understand what the restrictions are (if any). If I buy a 20 point Reserve with a 5 recovery, what I can add those 20 points to? Anything? One thing, two if I buy an Advantage?[/quote']

This is clarify the original intent.

I extrapolated from the END Reserve. Any Power that costs END to use can draw from it, the player just has to specify that at the beginning.

Therefore, any power that has Active Points can draw from the Adjustment Reserve, the player just has to specify that at the beginning.

 

I'm not asking about when I use it' date=' I'm asking about when I buy it. Is the pool itself able to add to anything? So without an Advantage I can, for a single Phase increase by STR to 10 points and add 10 AP to my Damage Shield? And at the end of the Turn I have 5 points back I can then use to boost my EB by 1d6? And say that my Damage is defined as [i']Spiked Armor[/i] and my EB is a Blue Light Blast, will that matter? What if my EB is a gun with rubber bullets? Could I still use the Adjustment Reserve to add to it or any of these things, so long as I still have points in it to use?

Ok, now were getting down to the things I wanted this thread to focus on. What I have defined and whether or not it's balanced.

 

This specifically, I wanted to get advice on. Someone already mentioned that instead of basing it by power that it should be based on SFX. Which has merit, and almost triggers my "Rant On Adjustment Powers" psych lim. But I won't be side tracked.

 

Perhaps the following would be more balanced.

By default the player must specify the SFX that the Adjustment Reserve is based on. Therefore only powers/stats with those SFX may draw from the pool.

2 SFX +1/4

4 SFX +1/2

8 SFX +1

 

The values are just guesses of course, but what are your comments about the innate SFX restriction?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

So the Reserve is by default unlimited as to the types of Powers that it can fuel? You mentioned how it's used to fuel Persistant Powers so there seems to be no restrictions based on END usage. Though I'm wondering how it functions when boosting a Power that uses Charges or has the Uncontrolled Advantage...

 

But we can get to those in a while. First, being unlimited has three flaws. One, it makes the construct too powerful. Having a reserve of points you can use for ANYTHING, even if only for an instant, is a bit overboard. Two, it tends to fly in the face of everything else Hero. VPPs and Elemental Controls are restricted by SFX. Adjustment Powers are restricted to a single Power by default, and at best can affect a group of similar SFX. Three, there isn't a single instance of anything in any piece of source material that has something that boosts whatever it pleases without regard to SFX or similar issues.

 

For example: with your Adjustment Reserve I can buy a 20 point Reserve and a 5 point Recovery (30 points) with an Advantage so that it applies to four Powers (+1/2) for a total Cost of 45 Points (I won't get into how Limitations make this worse). Now, for 45 points, I can simultaneously boost 4 completely different and unrelated Powers of my choice (with the only restriction be that they are my powers and not someone elses). I can have a 2 Phase boost of 10 AP on 4 different powers once every 4 Turns. Or a 1 Phase boost every 2 Turns. Or a 1 Phase boost of 20 points every 4 Turns. It's nasty. I can increase by STR by 10 points, my Colt. 45 by 2 DC, my magic amulate of Armor by 3 DEF (for a full Phase because it's bought as a FF) and boost my leap by +10", all at the same time, and then do it again the next Phase with 4 completely different Powers/Characteristics. Maybe next Phase I'll just fire up my DEX, STR, Running and HA and do a Move Through on some poor sucker.

 

Sorry about such a long complaint, but I didn't realize until just now this wasn't restricted in any way.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Perhaps the following would be more balanced.

By default the player must specify the SFX that the Adjustment Reserve is based on. Therefore only powers/stats with those SFX may draw from the pool.

2 SFX +1/4

4 SFX +1/2

8 SFX +1

 

The values are just guesses of course, but what are your comments about the innate SFX restriction?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Ah, well crud. Sorry about the previous post, as I didn't see this yet.

 

Basing it on a single SFX would be a step in the right direction, but allowing additional SFX is just off in my opinion. Why would it be allowed for this and not any other Power in the Hero System?

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

So the Reserve is by default unlimited as to the types of Powers that it can fuel? You mentioned how it's used to fuel Persistant Powers so there seems to be no restrictions based on END usage. Though I'm wondering how it functions when boosting a Power that uses Charges or has the Uncontrolled Advantage... later discussion

Okay!

 

...Sorry about such a long complaint' date=' but I didn't realize until just now this wasn't restricted in any way.[/quote']

Hey, I'm just happy that we're actually to the point of evaluating the construct itself. (8^D)

 

I was already leaning to changing it to an SFX base, but wanted to discuss more on if this is limited enough. Starting it out with any power with SFX might not be enough.

 

Another alternative...

By default: One Power of SFX

Advantages: x2 Powers +1/2, +1 SFX +1/4

 

Also, perhaps I need to change the costs of the pool and REC option.

Pool Cost: 2 Pts / 1 Active Point

REC Cost: 5 Pts / 1 REC

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Ah, well crud. Sorry about the previous post, as I didn't see this yet.

 

Basing it on a single SFX would be a step in the right direction, but allowing additional SFX is just off in my opinion. Why would it be allowed for this and not any other Power in the Hero System?

Have you ever read in detail the Adders/Advantages/Limitation in the Adjustment Powers section. I was basing my limitations off those. (8^D)

 

Every Adjustment Power can be increased to affect multiple SFX, and by default a straight Adjustment Power without any advantages/limitations affects an infinite number of SFX!!! [MUST RESIST PSYCH LIM!!]

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Ah, well crud. Sorry about the previous post, as I didn't see this yet.

 

Basing it on a single SFX would be a step in the right direction, but allowing additional SFX is just off in my opinion. Why would it be allowed for this and not any other Power in the Hero System?

Okay, to delve a little more into what I think your are pointing out....

 

Adjustment powers have always been unique in that they could actually have two SFX simulateously defined for them. Very odd, but it makes sense.

 

Example:

The Power's SFX of itself

+10 Aid to STR: SFX = Drawing upon the power of the LEY!!

 

The SFX of the powers being Affected

+10 Aid, +1/4 Fire SFX: SFX = Drawing upon the power of the LEY to augment any of my Fire Blasts of DEATH!!!

 

Technically STR could be considered an SFX also, but Drain is one that tends to break the rule of requiring two SFX.

 

Anyway, I understand where you coming from with the Adjustment Reserve needing more than one SFX. That's why we're discussing it. (8^D)

 

- Chrstopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I'm not sure if we are on the same wavelength concerning Adjustment Powers and SFX. From my understanding, an Adjustment Power only affects a single Power or Characteristic (regardless of SFX, typically simulating a universal change that affects a mechanic rather than dealing with SFX; Example: Drain STR can be used to simulate a concentrated gravity increase in a target so that his STR is less effective, but will reduce STR regardless of the STR's SFX). With an Advantage, an Adjustment Power can affect any Power of a specified SFX (fire powers, psionic powers, light powers, etc.). This would simulate a control over a particular aspect of reality, rather than a universal change. In some cases, I might allow a slightly "universal" change to cross over the SFX bountries if the Adjustment Power represented a particular SFX that would logiclly affect many Powers/Characteristics regardless of SFX (such as a Drain Abilities That Can Be Affected By A Fluctuation In Gravity, which would include STR and most Movement Powers, and possibly other Powers as well if they depended on some sort of force that acted against gravity to function... an EB that simulates a thrown weapon for instance). In each case though, you can still think of the Adjustment Power being limited to a single SFX. That SFX is either defined by the "element" the Adjustment Powers alters or by the "element" that the Adjustment Power uses to cause an alteration.

 

[inhale]Okay, that was long...[/exhale]

 

The Adjustment Reserve should probably be considered an Adjustment Power, and follow those guidelines on how it can be applied. The basic Reserve should only affect a single Power, but can affect any Power (one at a time, or simultaneously if the points are split up) of a specific SFX for a +1/4. +1/2 to use the entire reserve to affect two Powers of the same SFX simultaneously. +1 to affect four and +2 to affect all Powers simulatneously.

 

A decision would also need to be made (or simply specified) if the Adjustment Reserve is a Self Only Power, or can be used on others, and if it can be used on others, whether or not it can do so at range. If it can not be used on others, the UBO Advantage should be looked at (it should not be disallowed) to compare and balance the final construct.

 

At this point, the Adjustment Reserve is looking more like a wacko Aid or Succor, but don't let that derail it again. Technically, Ego Attack is a wacko EB, but we can still compare the two. We should compare this Power to Aid/Succor mainly for determing the cost. Should we find that one works much more efficiently than the other, it will indecate a balance issue.

 

I do hope this is helping... I don't necessarily mean to completely tear down your creation or anything. It does sound interesting.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I'm not sure if we are on the same wavelength concerning Adjustment Powers and SFX. From my understanding' date=' an Adjustment Power only affects a single Power or Characteristic (regardless of SFX...[/quote']

Okay, I'm going to try to say this in one or two sentences (not going to rant, nope, not going to do it).

 

How many SFX are there for Energy Blast, or STR, an infinite number obviously so a Drain EB or Drain STR covers an infinite number SFX by default. This is inconsistent with all other powers in the book and makes no sense when you have to apply an advantage to affect one SFX over a finite number of powers.

 

That's it, I'm done, I've confirmed this with Steve, but he doesn't intend to change it. So it's over. No one has to agree with me or not.

 

Now to address the one specific thing you might have overlooked in the rules of the Adjustment Powers.

At the GM's option, a character who's bought Variable Effect at the +1/2 or greater level can buy a separate Advantage, Multiple Special Effects, to increase the number of special effects he can affect...

 

The Adjustment Reserve should probably be considered an Adjustment Power' date=' and follow those guidelines on how it can be applied...[/quote']Which is what I did, see above.

 

A decision would also need to be made (or simply specified) if the Adjustment Reserve is a Self Only Power' date=' or can be used on others, and if it can be used on others, whether or not it can do so at range. If it can not be used on others, the UBO Advantage should be looked at (it should not be disallowed) to compare and balance the final construct.[/quote']

By default, only yourself. So UBO would need to be applied.

 

At this point' date=' the Adjustment Reserve is looking more like a wacko Aid or Succor, but don't let that derail it again. Technically, Ego Attack is a wacko EB, but we can still compare the two. We should compare this Power to Aid/Succor mainly for determing the cost. Should we find that one works much more efficiently than the other, it will indecate a balance issue.[/quote']

Umm, I just reread the rules about Succor... and this construct is seriously broken at the Zero END level. Why? Two reasons.

1) You can keep boosting the power/stat with additional attack rolls. (Yes, it specifically says this)

2) It has no maximum effect like Aid. (Yes, it specifically says this)

Now, it does say there are special rules that must be applied if bought to Zero END. Hmmmm... why special rules when applying a standard advantage. Probably because it's totally whacked out balance wise and wasn't intended to be purchased to Zero END... but's that just my humble opinion.

 

However, if we are to use this for comparison, it'll need to have maximum effect (breaking it's defined mechanic), be tied to an END Reserve (1 Per 10, 1 Per REC), need to have the x10 END Limitation to simulate the pool drain properly, and Variable Effect Advantage +2 to affect any power/stat one at a time (yes, you can do this).

Succor (5 Pts/1d6), All Powers/Stats +2, x10 END -4, Max Effect -1 = 2 Pts per 1d6 (Set Effect for up to 20 Point Boost = 14 Points)

END Reserve (1 Per 10, 1 Per REC): 20 Point Reserve, 5 Recovery = 7 Points

So, for 21 Points you can kind of do the same thing mechanic wise. Hmmm... I'd buy that in a heart beat. (8^D)

 

I do hope this is helping... I don't necessarily mean to completely tear down your creation or anything. It does sound interesting.

See above, you're really proving my point that this is much better mechanic than what currently exists, and only highlights the inconsistencies with the Adjustment Powers. But I'm still listening if you think current existing mechanics are better. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Actually, rereading your intent again, I realized this is not a 0 End Succor. It actually functions exactly like a Succor attached to an End Reserve with exactly enough End to power the whole Succor once. Therefore, I would build it (or base the cost on, if you insist) as a Succor that can affect any power, one at a time, and a second Power that is an End Reserve with 1 End per 10 APs in the Succor (with included Advantages for affecting any Power). I wouldn't increase the End cost of the Succor, as it is marked quite clearly to watch for Powers with Increased End Cost that are powered off an End Reserve. This will scale nicely, as the amount of extra End needed will then be exactly proportional to any additional Advantages you place on the Succor. Note that this works for your Persistent Power example as well, as any Power fueled from an End Reserve will automatically keep drawing from it if you are Stunned or Knocked Out. However, I wouldn't make its application to a Persistent Power expend End every Segment. I would make it every Phase (or every Phase in which the character would normally act given his last active Speed) like every other application.

 

I would then base the Advantages of applying the points to multiple powers at once on the amount the Succor (and necessary End Reserve) will increase in value when you apply like Advantages.

 

I agree with Dust Raven that the construct (however built) should probably be SFX-restricted, at least at base value.

 

--------

 

Now, as for the Succor argument, I don't think it is entirely unbalanced to buy a Succor at 0 End. I think of an Aid as basically a Succor built as Costs End Only to Activate (see below) and Uncontrolled (there is an extra +1/4 if you consider Costs End Only to Activate as a +1/4, but I'm sure someone who nitpicked the differences could come up with some difference that could make that up, or we could just be laid back and hand wave it away as a scaling balancer). The balancing factor for Uncontrolled is that the points must bleed off at a rate of 5 per Turn, and this can only be slowed through a greater Advantage value. Note that this is somewhat similar to the mechanic that is used in a lot of spell constructs in Fantasy Hero/Grimoire: the spell lasts a number of Turns/Hours/whatever based on the amount by which you succeed at a RSR.

 

As for the use of Costs End Only to Activate, you can keep arguing that this is an invalid construct, but that's the way the Aid works relative to Succor, and I don't particularly care if it is technically an illegal construct; so many people use Costs End Only to Activate as a +1/4 Advantage that I think the argument is moot, whatever is in the rulebook. Besides, the whole intent of Costs End Only to Activate, as described in 5th ed., was to create an attack that you could spend End on once and then keep using for the rest of the battle. There ARE NO ATTACKS THAT COST 0 END TO BEGIN WITH, so if you argue that it can only be taken on a Power that costs 0 End naturally, THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS CONSTRUCT IS COMPLETELY LOST. Imagine, say, Wolverine, who might spend End to produce his claws, but then just uses them as weapons. Imagine a lightsaber like weapon that only uses power when it is activated. Sorry. This kind of thing should be able to be built in the system. End of story.

 

Okay. Sorry about the vehemence of my wording. That is the last time I am going to argue over that one. I am, as always, willing to hear your arguments to the contrary, but I've stated my opinion and will leave it at that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

By the way, when considering new constructs, Modifiers, Powers, etc., I usually calculate Active Points, Real Points, End costs, etc. on real/rational numbers, rather than trying to do rounding on each die, buying some arbitrarily large version of the power and rounding, or whatever. It gives a better feel for the overall amortized cost, and is a good indicator anyway if you are just going to use it as a basis for a new cost.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Okay' date=' I'm going to try to say this in one or two sentences ([i']not going to rant, nope, not going to do it[/i]).

 

How many SFX are there for Energy Blast, or STR, an infinite number obviously so a Drain EB or Drain STR covers an infinite number SFX by default. This is inconsistent with all other powers in the book and makes no sense when you have to apply an advantage to affect one SFX over a finite number of powers.

 

That's it, I'm done, I've confirmed this with Steve, but he doesn't intend to change it. So it's over. No one has to agree with me or not.

This will be a roadblock, or at least a speedbump. We seem to agree on what the rules actually say, but completely disagree that it's some kind of a problem. I think the rules work fine like that, are perfectly reasonable and balanced. It seems you do not.

 

Now to address the one specific thing you might have overlooked in the rules of the Adjustment Powers.

I did not overlook anything. I simply do not have 5ER. I'm basing all of my agruements on 5E and the original FAQ.

 

Umm, I just reread the rules about Succor... and this construct is seriously broken at the Zero END level. Why? Two reasons.

1) You can keep boosting the power/stat with additional attack rolls. (Yes, it specifically says this)

2) It has no maximum effect like Aid. (Yes, it specifically says this)

Now, it does say there are special rules that must be applied if bought to Zero END. Hmmmm... why special rules when applying a standard advantage. Probably because it's totally whacked out balance wise and wasn't intended to be purchased to Zero END... but's that just my humble opinion.

Again, this information must be in 5ER, since I can't find it in 5E. I happen to completely disagree with points one and 2, but without a way for me to reference the same rules you are using I can't debate the issue.

 

However, if we are to use this for comparison, it'll need to have maximum effect (breaking it's defined mechanic), be tied to an END Reserve (1 Per 10, 1 Per REC), need to have the x10 END Limitation to simulate the pool drain properly, and Variable Effect Advantage +2 to affect any power/stat one at a time (yes, you can do this).

Succor (5 Pts/1d6), All Powers/Stats +2, x10 END -4, Max Effect -1 = 2 Pts per 1d6 (Set Effect for up to 20 Point Boost = 14 Points)

END Reserve (1 Per 10, 1 Per REC): 20 Point Reserve, 5 Recovery = 7 Points

So, for 21 Points you can kind of do the same thing mechanic wise. Hmmm... I'd buy that in a heart beat. (8^D)

Again, I don't have access to the rules you are using. Even so, I have no idea why you constructed this as you did. I don't know about a +2 Advantage that allows an Adjustment Power to be used for anything, nor do I know what you mean my "Max Effect -1" (I'm pretty sure you're not talking about a Limitation that allows for maximum effect against the target).

 

 

See above, you're really proving my point that this is much better mechanic than what currently exists, and only highlights the inconsistencies with the Adjustment Powers. But I'm still listening if you think current existing mechanics are better. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

Actually, I have done no such thing. If anything, you have proven that your new Power is absoslutely unecessary sence the exact mechanic can be built using the existing rules (at least they way you use them). If the end result is overbalancing, it should tell you something about your own new Power and how balanced it really is.

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Dust Raven, as to Succor, on page 134 of 5ER, it says "As long as he keeps succeeding with his Attack Rolls, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for regular Aid."

 

The special rules for 0 END Succor are the same as those given for Suppress, it's indicated on that same page.

 

Schir1964, I'm not so sure about "Variable Effect Advantage +2 to affect any power/stat one at a time" - where is that cite? I know you can buy +2 to affect all characteristics/powers "with related special effects" (top of p. 112). I know you can also purchase Multiple Special Effects for +1/4 to +2. It indicates that to affect multiple SFX, if you already are using Varying Effect, that you can affect the specific number powers and characteristics that you have already defined with Variable Effect for ANY SFX for a +2 additional advantage.

 

PS - and as I stated in post 47, I don't think you can say that what schir1964 wants can be built easily with the existing Succor or other applications. Please see that post for where the klooges come in.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Okay, to delve a little more into what I think your are pointing out....

 

Adjustment powers have always been unique in that they could actually have two SFX simulateously defined for them. Very odd, but it makes sense.

 

Example:

The Power's SFX of itself

+10 Aid to STR: SFX = Drawing upon the power of the LEY!!

 

The SFX of the powers being Affected

+10 Aid, +1/4 Fire SFX: SFX = Drawing upon the power of the LEY to augment any of my Fire Blasts of DEATH!!!

 

Technically STR could be considered an SFX also, but Drain is one that tends to break the rule of requiring two SFX.

 

Anyway, I understand where you coming from with the Adjustment Reserve needing more than one SFX. That's why we're discussing it. (8^D)

I have no idea what you mean by, "having two SFX simultaneously." We can count the Special Effects of a single Power? I don't think so. Special Effects is a term that refers to the story concept behind how the Power works. It is not definable as one thing, or two things, or any number of them. For example, how about I define an EB that shoots a tangled stream of fire, ice, and acid? I wouldn't say that is against the rules, or that it requires a Multi-Power Attack. Those are the Special Effects of my Power, and how they figure into the equation when other Powers deal with Special Effects that overlap with the Special Effects of this Power is up to the GM.

 

I could define an EB that draws geothermal energy from the earth and uses it to create so much static electricity in the air that sparks erupt and everything is scorched. By your definition, that would be two Special Effects in one Energy Blast. Hmm.

 

What we are talking about is the ability to affect Powers with similar Special Effects, and how many kinds of non-overlapping Special Effects you can manipulate with your Adjustment Power. Whether two or more Powers' Special Effects overlap enough to group them together for purposes of Adjustment Powers, Frameworks, etc., is completely up to the GM (and righly so).