New Power: Adjustment Reserve

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I understand completely. And splitting up the' date=' "dice pool," as we might call it ( ) to use on different powers would be [i']one[/i] use of the Aid/Succor. Repeating the use with the same split for more Charges/End/for free would boost the Powers even more, but only up to the limit that you can apply to those powers. In my example of 2d6 to Str, 2d6 to Dex, and 2d6 to Energy Blast, you could again apply the 2d6, 2d6, and 2d6, but only until each Power was at +12 APs.

I was referring to the restriction of using multiple Adjustment Powers on the same character. Adjustment Reserve does not have this restriction.

 

I'd still go with the Succor' date=' but, instead of buying it to 0 End, feed it off an End Reserve (or Charges, though this could get tricky if you are dividing up the dice; whatever).[/quote']

So we've hit the "Overly Complicated" critical mass criteria. Glad we agree. (8^D)

 

Eh. Semantics. You can activate an Aid/Succor as a free action' date=' so you can turn it on as you use the other Power.[/quote']

Actually, no, it's not semantics. Why? Because there are actual mechanics involved that make a difference here. Unless the rules state that you can Heal/Aid yourself or someone else instantly without taking a Half Phase action, there's a big difference on how these concepts will work.

 

Now if I've misunderstood your concept please correct me. Based on what you've told me, the dice sit there, as a pool of points. When you use them with a power, it takes no time for the points to be transferred to the power it's boostiing (dubious about this rule). After which, that power remains boosted until the Succor is turned off or a separate END Reserve for the powers runs out of END. This implies that the time frame is totally dependent on the END Reserve and not the Succor Pool. Then, once the Succor is turned off, the Succor Pool once again becomes available for use, instantly.

 

Now with the Adjustment Reserve, it has to be filled initially. Whether this is done with the REC option or for our example another Adjustment Power (Succor), this will take 1/2 Phase. Even if you allow it to take no time (dubious about this rule), unless the Succur is equal to the Reserve, it will take multiple phases for the Succor to fill it. To make the Succor equal to the Reserve you will have spend more points. So in both instances there is a balancing effect (One takes more time mechanically, the other more points). Once the Reserve is filled, it can be used by one or more powers, as defined. When a power that accessed the Reserve is used, there is a time limit on how long the boosted part of the power will last. The duration is completely dependent on the Reserve itself. The character might run out of END for the power in question, but that is totally independent of the restriction the Reserve itself imposes.

 

See the difference in application?

 

There's one thing more that Adjustment Reserve adds that your current concept does not. It makes it easier to simulate certain SFX and adds greater flexibility with certain SFX without becoming overly complciated.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

[Addendum]

The examples and discussion above are not meant to imply any restrictions as to when the Adjustment Reserve can be used concerning the level of points in the reserve. If it's partially filled, you can use it. If it's partially empty, you can fill it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Of course, what we're really doing here is talking about a new Power thingy that seems to be designed for a single application of a SFX/Character concept and really can't be made universal and still not fall short of fulfilling the inspiring concept. It seems to be a bit of a wasted excersize to me (well, it is fun to discuss, but that's about it).

 

I'd have to go back and reread the other post to offer suggestions for a specific build, but so far I can't see a use for Adjustment Reserve that either existing Adjustment Powers or a VPP doesn't already provide.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Good point, Dust Raven.

 

As for creating this new Power instead of using a combination of existing Powers and Modifiers, schir, ah, well, using combinations of Powers and Modifiers in this way is what the system is geared for. The Special Effects work because the Powers in no way limit the SFX with which you decide to justify them, and if in any way the mechanics of the Powers get in the way of the Special Effects, I suggest you consult with your GM (if applicable) to work around this, as Special Effects and concept are what it's all about.

 

"Filling the pool," sounds like filling and End Reserve to me, that can then be used to power the application of a Succor, which can Cost End or Cost End Only to Activate as you see fit to match the concept of the Power.

 

You can, by the way, Aid or Succor yourself as a free action at the beginning of your Phase or after your first Half Phase. You could also activate a Force Field, turn on a Sense, and a lot of other things. In general, you can activate any Power that does not require an attack roll as a free action (unless, of course, prevented by Limitations such as Extra Time, multiple powers with Gestures, Incantations, Concentration, etc.). You can also use any number of attack Powers at the same time, for that matter (see the rules for Multi-Power attacks).

 

By the way, I am not trying to imply you can't or shouldn't create a new Power to use. I am just saying that I think a combination of Aid/Succor and an End Reserve very much can be used to validly create the effects you are describing. It may take a tiny bit of tweaking, but tweaking is great unless you really need to re-use a construct over and over and over again (as Dust Raven pointed out).

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Of course, what we're really doing here is talking about a new Power thingy that seems to be designed for a single application of a SFX/Character concept and really can't be made universal and still not fall short of fulfilling the inspiring concept. It seems to be a bit of a wasted excersize to me (well, it is fun to discuss, but that's about it).

 

I'd have to go back and reread the other post to offer suggestions for a specific build, but so far I can't see a use for Adjustment Reserve that either existing Adjustment Powers or a VPP doesn't already provide.

Actually, could you expound on this for further clarification.

 

As far as I can tell, the Adjustment Reserve is a universal power, as I've defined it. It allows the concept SFX to be met with minimal changes, and allows for even more SFX to be equally created with as much ease. With Advantages/Limitations even more complicated SFX can be simulated easier.

 

The whole point is, both END Reserve and Ajustment Reserve use a unique construct to achieve it's goal. The Pool of Points. You could argue that END Reserve should be made more generic and just called Reserve, with special adders/advantages/limitations to allow for the creation of different types of pools. Which is not without merit, but the current cost of END Reserve would have to be modified to fit more generally than what it is.

 

And again I ask, do you think END Reserve shouldn't be a separate power?

Since it can be achieved with standard Adjustment Powers and VPPs.

I'm having trouble with your logic here, not your opinion.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Good point, Dust Raven.

 

As for creating this new Power instead of using a combination of existing Powers and Modifiers, schir, ah, well, using combinations of Powers and Modifiers in this way is what the system is geared for.

Also, the system is specifically geared for creating new Skills, Perqs, Talents, Powers, Adders, Subtractors, Advantages, and Limitations. If it weren't, then you'd have exactly the same Skills, Perqs, Talents, Powers, Adders, Subtractors, Advantages, and Limitations in 5th as you did 4th, and 3rd, etc...

 

However, since that's not the case... (8^D)

 

So, this argument has no meaning when you try to use it as evidence that current methods are better than a New Power construct.

 

The Special Effects work because the Powers in no way limit the SFX with which you decide to justify them' date=' and if in any way the mechanics of the Powers get in the way of the Special Effects, I suggest you consult with your GM (if applicable) to work around this, as Special Effects and concept are what it's all about.[/quote']

I can see from the last part of this, that you're not familiar with my posting here. (8^D)

Now for the first part, you don't really believe that the power mechanics don't limit the SFX at all do you. Surely, you don't the power Desolidfication doesn't limit the SFX. It's quite obvious that it does limit severly what SFX you can use for it.

However, if you really do believe this, then let's not discuss that idea, since we obviously won't agree. And any argument using this as evidence is bound to fail. (8^D)

 

But that doesn't mean we can discuss the Adjustment Reserve and it's usefulness or balance issues. (8^D)

 

"Filling the pool' date='" sounds like filling and End Reserve to me, that can then be used to power the application of a Succor, which can Cost End or Cost End Only to Activate as you see fit to match the concept of the Power.[/quote']

Well of course it does, that's the power I used to extrapolate from! (8^D)

However, there's a big difference between END usage and AP usage. And see above my point on that a more Universal Power: Reserve might be more appropriate since it would add more flexibility with same type of construct, however, many don't like the cost structure of END Reserve as it is, so that would have to be overhauled. That idea has great merit, but since it would in essence still be creating a new power per se, I would suspect that you'd reject that also, true?

 

Note: Cost END Only To Activate is restricted to "Body Affecting" powers only by default, GM permission required otherwise.

 

You can' date=' by the way, Aid or Succor yourself as a free action at the beginning of your Phase or after your first Half Phase.[/quote']

Sorry, going to have to call you on that one. No, GM permission is specifically required to override the default of using a Half Phase action with thoses powers.

Hero 5th Edition Revised, Page 103, Second Column, Section: Attack Actions

This sections mentions specifically that Aid and Healing require Attack Actions and therefore must take a Half Phase. GM Permission might forego this, but by default, per the rules, these take a Half Phase action.

 

By the way' date=' I am not trying to imply you can't or shouldn't create a new Power to use. I am just saying that I think a combination of Aid/Succor and an End Reserve very much [i']can[/i] be used to validly create the effects you are describing. It may take a tiny bit of tweaking, but tweaking is great unless you really need to re-use a construct over and over and over again (as Dust Raven pointed out).

Ok, perhaps I still haven't made myself clear, I've never claimed that you couldn't do with existing rules. Dust Raven's idea would probably work best since the VPP construct is the closest to of what is available within the current rules.

There are reasons new powers are created in Hero, and there are plenty, just look at the new powers created by Steve Long in the Hero Glyphs column in Digital Hero. Some of these will probably end up in a new version of Hero in the future.

 

But let me ask you the same question.

Do you think END Reserve shouldn't be a separate power, given that you can achieve the same thing with Adjustment Powers and VPP?

 

Just Curious

 

BTW: I'll gladly listen to any argument given if you want to try to convince why using your method is better than my method. But please don't use "Because it uses the Current Rules", since that will obviously be ineffective based on my statement above. If you have other arguments to sway me, I'm all ears. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

By the way, Christopher, this thread inspired a thread I just started, http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30085 - it's theoretical and abstract, not like this one, but the general issue of power construction got me to thinking and...

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

(complete tangent)

Do you think END Reserve shouldn't be a separate power, given that you can achieve the same thing with Adjustment Powers and VPP?

 

Or even just END bought with some appropriate modifiers...

 

Personally, no, I don't! I think it overcomplicates the game as a standard rule and isn't needed anyway as each situation should be built as needed. But that's a total tangent. I have nothing against the idea of power creation in general, and I don't house rule at all against END Reserve, it's just my opinion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

And again I ask, do you think END Reserve shouldn't be a separate power?

Since it can be achieved with standard Adjustment Powers and VPPs.

I'm having trouble with your logic here, not your opinion.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

END Reserve specifically does a number of things that END and REC (those it's modled after) can't and don't do, and there is no applicable Modifier to apply to either to allow it. The first is to keep the END when knocked to 0 STUN, the other is to continue to REC lost END while at or under 0 STUN. It does something that END and REC themselves can't do.

 

The Adjustment Reserve does exactly what Aid and/or Succor as well as a VPP can do. Nothing more, nothing less. All that's needed is the application of the appropriate modifiers. Sure, Adjustment Reserve would look nicer on the character sheet, but that's not why you make a new power, otherwise we'd have to make a new Power for Hand Cuffs.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

END Reserve specifically does a number of things that END and REC (those it's modled after) can't and don't do' date=' and there is no applicable Modifier to apply to either to allow it. The first is to keep the END when knocked to 0 STUN, the other is to continue to REC lost END while at or under 0 STUN. It does something that END and REC themselves can't do.[/quote']

Actually, I based the Adjustment Reserve off of the END Reserve, and I see no reason by both these attributes wouldn't also apply to the Adjustment Reserve. Only instead of END Points, it's Adjustment Points. So it offers the same type of unique ability here.

 

The Adjustment Reserve does exactly what Aid and/or Succor as well as a VPP can do. Nothing more' date=' nothing less. All that's needed is the application of the appropriate modifiers. Sure, Adjustment Reserve would look nicer on the character sheet, but that's not why you make a new power, otherwise we'd have to make a new Power for Hand Cuffs.[/quote']

Actually, you're only half right. Nothing Less, but does something more.

Adjustment Powers have a Fade Rate and VPP doesn't change this.

Adjustment Reserve has no Fade Rate.

Restrictions on using Multiple Adjustment Powers on the same character. Adjustment Reserve has no restriction in this respect.

Succor is extricably bound to END. But if you purchase it without END, it creates problems with it's functionality.

Adjustment Reserve doesn't suffer from this restriction or problem.

 

I can understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion. Thanks for the input. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Actually, I based the Adjustment Reserve off of the END Reserve, and I see no reason by both these attributes wouldn't also apply to the Adjustment Reserve. Only instead of END Points, it's Adjustment Points. So it offers the same type of unique ability here.

 

 

Actually, you're only half right. Nothing Less, but does something more.

Adjustment Powers have a Fade Rate and VPP doesn't change this.

Adjustment Reserve has no Fade Rate.

Restrictions on using Multiple Adjustment Powers on the same character. Adjustment Reserve has no restriction in this respect.

Succor is extricably bound to END. But if you purchase it without END, it creates problems with it's functionality.

Adjustment Reserve doesn't suffer from this restriction or problem.

 

I can understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion. Thanks for the input. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I think this is our bump. Maybe we interpret things differently or something, but...

 

Succor does not have a fade rate, and isn't bound by END if bought to 0. I know of no funcionality problems it has at this point. There might be some balance issues concerning multiple uses of the same Succor, but technically it's not illegal.

 

By using the Adjustment Reserve in the way you've described, you've basically have nothing but a Cosmic VPP. All the VPP would need is a Limitation that states it can only add to existing Powers, and there are even examples of that floating around I think.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I think this is our bump. Maybe we interpret things differently or something, but...

 

Succor does not have a fade rate, and isn't bound by END if bought to 0. I know of no funcionality problems it has at this point. There might be some balance issues concerning multiple uses of the same Succor, but technically it's not illegal.

Maybe I'm just not be clear, since I feel like I'm repeating myself. I never said Succor specifically had Fade Rate. I said it costs END and had some problems when bought to Zero END. I also mentioned that problem with applying multiple times to the same thing. So yes, it has problems. If you want problems with application specifically when bought to Zero END, see my posts above discussing it.

 

By using the Adjustment Reserve in the way you've described' date=' you've basically have nothing but a Cosmic VPP. All the VPP would need is a Limitation that states it can only add to existing Powers, and there are even examples of that floating around I think.[/quote']

Except for the problems with Fade Rate with Adjustment Powers in General, and the specific problems already discussed when trying to use Succor.

 

Don't know what else to say to clarify things.

 

[Addendum]

Just wanted to add the clarification that, per the rules, each adjustment power use will take a Half Phase, and will Fade independent of each other. Adjustment Reserve eliminates this complication completely.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Also, the system is specifically geared for creating new Skills, Perqs, Talents, Powers, Adders, Subtractors, Advantages, and Limitations. If it weren't, then you'd have exactly the same Skills, Perqs, Talents, Powers, Adders, Subtractors, Advantages, and Limitations in 5th as you did 4th, and 3rd, etc...

 

However, since that's not the case... (8^D)

 

So, this argument has no meaning when you try to use it as evidence that current methods are better than a New Power construct.

Sure, but why create a new power construct when you don't have to? Especially when the power construct is specifically for a particular character concept. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm saying I wouldn't, and it seems a little like wasted energy (not that we haven't wasted quite a bit of energy discussing it ).

 

...many don't like the cost structure of END Reserve as it is, so that would have to be overhauled.

True. I myself make End Reserve cost the same amount as normal End/Rec as soon as it extends past 20 End/4 Rec.

 

Cost END Only To Activate is restricted to "Body Affecting" powers only by default, GM permission required otherwise.

Well, actually, I was going by 5ed. (I don't have revised yet), where it talks about costing End only to activate under Endurance Limitations (pg. 185). It also lists it as an Advantage under Body-Affecting Powers (pg. 76). So I suppose you would technically have to buy Costs 0 End (+1/2), then Costs End Only to Activate (-1/4), but I think it's less hassle just to call it a +1/4 Advantage. Of course, Revised might have changed that, so whatever.

 

Sorry, going to have to call you on that one. No, GM permission is specifically required to override the default of using a Half Phase action with thoses powers.

Hero 5th Edition Revised, Page 103, Second Column, Section: Attack Actions

This sections mentions specifically that Aid and Healing require Attack Actions and therefore must take a Half Phase. GM Permission might forego this, but by default, per the rules, these take a Half Phase action.

Huh. Again, I was going by 5ed., which mentions under "Zero Phase Actions" (pg. 233) "activating a Power, turning off a Power..." and under, "Attack Actions," (pg. 234), "Actions which require of involve any kind of Attack Roll...." Using a Power on yourself doesn't require an attack roll (though you could argue using it on a comrade, even a willing one, requires a roll, even if they are 0 DCV and it is hand-waved). But I guess this, too, could have been FAQed or changed in Revised. If so: lame! But anyway....

 

Do you think END Reserve shouldn't be a separate power, given that you can achieve the same thing with Adjustment Powers and VPP?

I think it is interesting that End Reserve, Leaping, Running, and Swimming are all listed as separate powers, given that they are really just the same as some Characteristics (and could thus, I suppose, be covered under the "Characteristics" Power ). That End Reserve has a special cost and a few mechanics that could be dealt with using Modifiers has always been incredibly funny to me. I see a need for a separate pool for End, but not a really, really cheap one that employs whole different mechanics. Why not just allow another instance of the same Characteristics (End and Rec)?

 

BTW: I'll gladly listen to any argument given if you want to try to convince why using your method is better than my method. But please don't use "Because it uses the Current Rules", since that will obviously be ineffective based on my statement above. If you have other arguments to sway me, I'm all ears. (8^D)

Again, I wasn't saying mine is better than yours. I was saying mine can be used for the same thing. If you want to create a whole new Power, do so. I just see no need in the standard system for it, and I would see no need to do so myself, since it can be done in a way that, "uses Current Rules."

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Sure' date=' but [i']why[/i] create a new power construct when you don't have to? Especially when the power construct is specifically for a particular character concept. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm saying I wouldn't, and it seems a little like wasted energy (not that we haven't wasted quite a bit of energy discussing it ).

Normally, I include in the following statement in the very first post when I start this type of thread.

 

Please don't post how this Power isn't needed or wouldn't be used. I'm needing help ironing out the details for balance and flexibility.

It keep the thread from being dominated with the back and forth thing. Should have included with this one too. (8^D)

 

Obviously, I disagree that this is specific to a particular concept, at least not any more than an END Reserve is specific to a particular concept.

 

True. I myself make End Reserve cost the same amount as normal End/Rec as soon as it extends past 20 End/4 Rec.

But why bother wasting time constructing a new power "END Reserve" when you can do this with existing powers? (8^D)

Sorry, just had to say that. Just poking the bear with a twig. (8^D)

 

Well' date=' actually, I was going by 5ed. (I don't have revised yet), where it talks about costing End only to activate under Endurance Limitations (pg. 185). It also lists it as an Advantage under Body-Affecting Powers (pg. 76). So I suppose you would technically have to buy Costs 0 End (+1/2), then Costs End Only to Activate (-1/4), but I think it's less hassle just to call it a +1/4 Advantage. Of course, Revised might have changed that, so whatever.[/quote']

Umm, should I tell him? yeah, I better

Actually in the FAQs for 5th Edition, Steve Long clarified that information about Costs END Only To Activate. He also said it was illegal to combine that limitation with Costs Zero END advantage. So even in 5th both your ideas are not book legal.

 

Huh. Again' date=' I was going by 5ed., which mentions under "Zero Phase Actions" (pg. 233) "activating a Power, turning off a Power..." and under, "Attack Actions," (pg. 234), "Actions which require of involve any kind of Attack Roll...." Using a Power on yourself doesn't require an attack roll (though you could argue using it on a comrade, even a willing one, requires a roll, even if they are 0 DCV and it is hand-waved). But I guess this, too, could have been FAQed or changed in Revised. If so: lame! But anyway....[/quote']

Yes, is was.

 

I think it is interesting that End Reserve' date=' Leaping, Running, and Swimming are all listed as separate powers, given that they are really just the same as some Characteristics (and could thus, I suppose, be covered under the "Characteristics" Power ). That End Reserve has a special cost and a few mechanics that could be dealt with using Modifiers has always been incredibly funny to me. I see a need for a separate pool for End, but not a really, really cheap one that employs whole different mechanics. Why not just allow another instance of the same Characteristics (End and Rec)?[/quote']

Again, this begs the question, why do you "see a need for a separate pool for END"?

Why not just use what currently available?

 

This lends more credibility to the idea that instead of an END Reserve, just a Reserve Power is needed. It could be defined as END Points or Adjustment Points, etc... as the SFX would dictate.

 

Again' date=' I wasn't saying mine is better than yours. I was saying mine can be used for the same thing. If you want to create a whole new Power, do so. I just see no need in the standard system for it, and I would see no need to do so myself, since it [i']can[/i] be done in a way that, "uses Current Rules."

And again, I never said it couldn't be done with existing rules, just that it was overly complex for the SFX that was described.

 

I've said before in this thread, I don't expect anyone who doesn't like it, to use it. Was just wanting some feedback on balance issues and application problems.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've really appreciated many of the things you brought out. Some of them helped me refine the mechanics involved and define it's purpose. For that, thank you. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

LOL. Man! I so hate a lot of the errata/FAQ crap that's come out since 5th ed. I think I'll just ignore it all, as it makes things so much more complicated and so much less intuitive. That's one less person who will buy Revised.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

LOL. Man! I so hate a lot of the errata/FAQ crap that's come out since 5th ed. I think I'll just ignore it all' date=' as it makes things so much more complicated and so much less intuitive. That's one less person who will buy Revised. [/quote']

One last thing before I hit the hay. Getting a bit punchy, it's 3:00 AM here.

 

The reason I know all this picky little stuff is that I created the Hero 5th Edition Template for character Generation for Metacreator. I had to go through each thing in the book and reference the FAQs over and over again as it grew.

 

Ta Ta!

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Maybe I'm just not be clear' date=' since I feel like I'm repeating myself. I never said Succor specifically had Fade Rate. I said it costs END and had some problems when bought to Zero END. I also mentioned that problem with applying multiple times to the same thing. So yes, it has problems. If you want problems with application specifically when bought to Zero END, see my posts above discussing it.[/quote']

I feel like you are repeating yourself as well. You keep saying it has problems but you are saying what those problems are. I don't see any problems.

 

 

Except for the problems with Fade Rate with Adjustment Powers in General, and the specific problems already discussed when trying to use Succor.

 

Don't know what else to say to clarify things.

 

[Addendum]

Just wanted to add the clarification that, per the rules, each adjustment power use will take a Half Phase, and will Fade independent of each other. Adjustment Reserve eliminates this complication completely.

 

- Christopher Mullins

What do fade rates have to do with a VPP. VPPs don't have fade rates.

 

Are you thinking I'd waste my time using a VPP to make an Adjustment Power that only affects myself? No. I'd just use the VPP to add to the Powers directly, which is exactly what your Adjustment Reserve does.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I feel like you are repeating yourself as well. You keep saying it has problems but you are saying what those problems are. I don't see any problems.

Alright, let me go through this again.

 

Succor costs END to maintain, therefore, once used you continue to spend Endurance to maintain the boosted effect and that boost will stay until you actively turn it off. You can use it again, but only with another expenditure of END to maintain. Now if you buy the Succor to Zero END, you now have a power that can give unlimited number of boosts without any clear rules as how this works. Obviously, Succor was never intended to be used at the Zero END level, especially since it's given as a variant of Aid. Therefore, to remove the END component is to break the very mechanic that was used to define it as a variant of Aid.

 

If you don't see an Unlimited Boost power as a problem, then we probably shouldn't continue down this path of discussion.

 

What do fade rates have to do with a VPP. VPPs don't have fade rates.

 

Are you thinking I'd waste my time using a VPP to make an Adjustment Power that only affects myself? No. I'd just use the VPP to add to the Powers directly, which is exactly what your Adjustment Reserve does.

Well, you never said that before. Do tell!

Exactly how would you stack additional AP to existing Powers/Stats with a VPP?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

If you don't see an Unlimited Boost power as a problem' date=' then we probably shouldn't continue down this path of discussion.[/quote']

What are you calling an unlimited Boost? You can't keep reapplying it to the same Characteristic or Power and getting more from it (you'd need Cumulative for that). You could just keep applying it to anything other Characters or Powers it applies to, well, until you ran out of things to apply it to, but you still only get to apply it once to each thing.

 

 

Well, you never said that before. Do tell!

Exactly how would you stack additional AP to existing Powers/Stats with a VPP?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Example Powers:

 

Super Pushing: VPP 20 + 20, Cosmic (+2), Only To Increase Existing Powers & Characteristics(-1/2)

 

Elementalism: EC 60 point powers

Elemental Blast: EB 10d6 Variable SFX (elemental effects, +1/4)

Elemental Movement: Flight 20" Variable Advantage +1/4 (+1/2), Variable Limitation -1/2 (-1/4)

 

The VPP can be used to add up to 20 Active Points to any Power the character has. For example it can add 3d6 to the Elemental Blast (19 AP), or 6" to the Flight (18 AP). Alternately, it can add 20 points to STR. or 6 points of DEX, or even a bonus of +20 STUN.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

What are you calling an unlimited Boost? You can't keep reapplying it to the same Characteristic or Power and getting more from it (you'd need Cumulative for that). You could just keep applying it to anything other Characters or Powers it applies to' date=' well, until you ran out of things to apply it to, but you still only get to apply it once to each thing.[/quote']

Exactly! I've now increased every single power/stat/etc... and they are, for all pratical purposes, permanently boosted. And they are all boosted simultaneously with no effect on each other.

 

Don't bother mentioning being stunned, knocked out, etc... In essence they are permanent boosts. Again, if you don't see this as problem, then we should just let it go.

 

Example Powers:

 

Super Pushing: VPP 20 + 20, Cosmic (+2), Only To Increase Existing Powers & Characteristics(-1/2)

 

Elementalism: EC 60 point powers

Elemental Blast: EB 10d6 Variable SFX (elemental effects, +1/4)

Elemental Movement: Flight 20" Variable Advantage +1/4 (+1/2), Variable Limitation -1/2 (-1/4)

 

The VPP can be used to add up to 20 Active Points to any Power the character has. For example it can add 3d6 to the Elemental Blast (19 AP), or 6" to the Flight (18 AP). Alternately, it can add 20 points to STR. or 6 points of DEX, or even a bonus of +20 STUN.

Hmmm... this the pool aspect, but still doesn't meet the requirement of having the pool run out. How would fix that with this construct?

Also, this also seems to have permanant boost aspect to it without the pool running out of points.

 

So how do you fix this?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Exactly! I've now increased every single power/stat/etc... and they are, for all pratical purposes, permanently boosted. And they are all boosted simultaneously with no effect on each other.

 

Don't bother mentioning being stunned, knocked out, etc... In essence they are permanent boosts. Again, if you don't see this as problem, then we should just let it go.

Well, since applying a Succor, even to yourself, counts as an Attack Action, pumping up everything that you can could take a while. Or you could just put the +2 on it and do it all at once. There is no problem with it, as far as the rules are concerned, but I definately agree there might be a balance issue about such a build and how it would be used. Could say the same thing about yours.

 

 

Hmmm... this the pool aspect, but still doesn't meet the requirement of having the pool run out. How would fix that with this construct?

Also, this also seems to have permanant boost aspect to it without the pool running out of points.

 

So how do you fix this?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Okay, explain to me again what you mean by "run out" of points. Is this like, you apply a boost to something, it lasts for a single Phase and then you have to wait for the pool to recharge? You can handle that easily enough by putting a 1 Recoverable Charge on the VPP. It recovers after a specified amount of time agreed upon by the player and GM.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Well' date=' since applying a Succor, even to yourself, counts as an Attack Action, pumping up everything that you can could take a while. Or you could just put the +2 on it and do it all at once. There is no problem with it, as far as the rules are concerned, but I definately agree there might be a balance issue about such a build and how it would be used. Could say the same thing about yours.[/quote']

Keep in mind that Succor is not a Power unto itself, it's specifically designed variant of Aid, created for a specific purpose, to Aid powers/stat with and END cost instead of Fade Rate. It was never intended to purchased to Zero END. It's similar to how Regeneration became a variant of Healing.

 

So obviously, there is a problem with buy it to Zero END.

 

Now if you could please check the first few posts, you'll see that the one of the reasons for this thread was to help reveal any possible Balance problems with the Adjustment Reserve. And yet, so far, no seems to think it has balance problem. The Reserve itself has built in balancing factors, one, it has to be filled, and two, the Reserve will run out. But Succor as you have agreed has a definate balance issue.

 

Okay' date=' explain to me again what you mean by "run out" of points. Is this like, you apply a boost to something, it lasts for a single Phase and then you have to wait for the pool to recharge? You can handle that easily enough by putting a 1 Recoverable Charge on the VPP. It recovers after a specified amount of time agreed upon by the player and GM.[/quote']

Ok, and I'm not sure why I can't communicate this clearly, just like an END Reserve will run out of END Points, the Adjustment Reserve will run out of Adjustment Points. In both cases you have a few choices if you want the Reserve to last longer.

1) You can increase the size of the Reserve

2) You can buy a REC for the Reserve

3) You can feed the Reserve with another power

So if you want the Reserve to be more powerful, you going to have to spend more ponts.

 

The only difference between the two Reserves is that one is used to draw END to run powers, while the other is used to draw Active Points to boost powers.

 

And once again, it highlights the idea that the END Reserve could be replaced with a better construct called Reserve, where you could define it with different types of points to simulate different SFX. END points for an END Reserve, Active Points for Boosting Powers, etc...

 

Was my initial post that vague and/or misleading?

 

So your solution for the VPP won't work to match this mechanic.

There is no set time limit, since it totally depends on the powers that are boosted and at what level they boosted and this can change from phase to phase as the character changes his actions.

 

So were back to my question again, how do you propose to match this mechanic with the VPP?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I have studied this and I really think Christopher is right - nothing in the system does this very well, not directly that is, right now. And even doing so at all requires a number of odd Limitations that there are few precedents for (e.g., "Fades in One Phase and Completely" isn't known as a Lim and is buried as such, it exists as a feature of Succor, but it's unclear how it was applied to make Aid into Succor, and also this does not apply with a 0 END Succor, so it's an unclear trade-off).

 

Whether that means it should be a new power is another matter, one I'm not going to address in this post.

 

But taking at face value that there's not a straightforward build, here's my attempt at doing so using the "standard" rules just for a cost comparison:

 

Succor, +1/4 Varying Effect, any one power at a time of special effect, special effect being smply "own character's powers" (essentially declaring the special effect is self only, no self only Limitation then), -0 Limitation Only for Self, -0 Standard Effect, Powered by END Battery

 

END Battery, standard 1/10 END, 1/1REC

 

A "perishable" Succor of this nature for 1 CP is 4 AP/CP plus 1 AP/CP, so 5 CP/AP.

 

In the method proposed, it'd be 2 CP/AP, 1 for the point, +2 for the 1 REC.

 

But of course it will scale very differently. Let's look at that:

 

# CP, # Rec - Succor with END Reserve - Adjustment Reserve

10 CP, 2 Rec - 24 - 14

20 CP, 4 Rec - 47 - 28 (NB - added a non-standard additional +1 PIP for 2 points)

30 CP, 6 Rec - 71 - 42

40 CP, 8 Rec - 93 - 56

80 CP, 16 Rec - 185 - 116

 

Note we still have a problem because the END expenditure versus granting granular bits of the Succor just don't work the same, as flexibly, as Christopher's suggestion. But if anything this would seem to be ANOTHER advantage. Which is a good point to state that this comparison says one of three things:

 

1 - it's simply a bad build in simulating what the power desired is, and thus apples to oranges

2 - it suggests that Adjustment Reserve is too cheap

3 - it suggests that this build is too unfair to the player and is over-costed, even if "accurate"

 

The 1st of these should prompt suggestions to fix the Succor build - they're welcome. The 3rd of these suggests further that a different construction is in order. So let's try VPP:

 

VPP - -1 only to boost existing powers of player; -1/2 each power constructed must have 1 Charge, Recoverable (normally -1 1/4, knocked down as "Recoverable" is normally only after combat or such), "Recoverable" defined as linked to END Battery with REC only (+1/1 REC)

 

Then for each power we define them when built as "1 Charge, Recoverable" with a value of (IMHO) -3/4 given they are easily recoverable even if one charge - I derived this as 1/2 (rounded in player's favor though) of the -1 1/4 value normally associated with 1 Charge, Recoverable.

 

So to scale as above, and assume that the Pool costs are always as "1 Charge Recoverable"; I called it "Effective CPs" assuming the points in the VPP get the auto-Limitation applied of -3/4 so they really always get more points - and to make this a more liberal build for comparison, let's just waive the whole issue of AP > Control Cost:

 

Effective CPs, REC - VPP method - Adjustment Reserve - VPP construction notes

 

10 CP, 2 REC - 9 - 12 - VPP = 6 real points for 10 CP (-3/4), 3 Control => 1 real point, +2 REC in END Battery of +1 point for each REC

 

20 CP, 4 REC - 17 - 28 - VPP = 11 real points for 20 CP (-3/4), 5 Control => 2 real points, +4 REC in END Battery of +1 point for each REC

 

30 CP, 6 REC - 26 - 42 - VPP = 17 real points for 30 CP (-3/4), 8 Control => 3 real points, +6 REC in END Battery of +1 point for each REC

 

40 CP, 8 REC - 35 - 56 - VPP = 23 real points for 40 CP (-3/4), 12 Control => 4 real points, +8 REC in END Battery of +1 point for each REC

 

80 CP, 16 REC - 71 - 56 - VPP = 46 real points for 80 CP (-3/4), 23 Control => 9 real points, +16 REC in END Battery of +1 point for each REC

 

This is a fairly liberal, but I don't think over-the-top, VPP build. Many GMs would probably not allow it but some would. However, it isn't too far off from the Adjustment Reserve proposal, and suggests this construct is probably in the right ballpark, as many GMs might not accept what I posted for this VPP build but likely lesser Limitations or other hand-waving would achieve a point construction only somewhat higher, I think.

 

This was posted only in the effort to validate the points cost for the structure proposed, not to judge if it's so-called right or wrong. I think it suggests that it MAY be balanced, but it also suggests it has a lot to do with how GMs feel about Adjustment power approaches, and I think we know that whole topic is fraught with controversy. Given all this, I do consider this to be an interesting and fair build on the whole, probalby not far off if it is off.

 

I would add that close inspection of this does help us challenge what Adjustment Powers do and why they seem wonky in so many instances. I think we should be considering the effects of these powers in light of requests like this, because we SHOULD be able to elegantly and easily do what Christopher suggests. But we cannot, because neither the existing Adjustment Powers help us easily nor does the system suggest other straight-forward avenues.

 

I know this is a tangent, but...

 

I suggest this is clearly another indicator, another proof that Adjustment Powers are a weak part of HERO and must be overhauled.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Zornwil's post has me thinking about the broken nature of Endurance Reserves. There are probably many older threads on this topic but I will weigh in with some thoughts here anyway.

 

Endurance Reserves are like Charges except they always COST points whereas Charges can be either an Advantage or a Limitation depending on the utility. It seems like End Reserves should be available as a type of Limitation as long as they are below a certain threshold of utility (just like charges; maybe less than or equal to the character's personal REC and END?!). The problem then becomes an imbalanced costing for the Advantaged version which is currently costed almost like an adder. One solution would be to, either as a replacement or in addition to the existing End Reserves as a seperate power, offer them as a alternative base line "Figured Power-Characteristic" that could then be either increased as an Advantage or decreased as a Limitation both using the same scale.

 

Like a lot of things in the HERO SYSTEM, where the line is actually drawn for such a change is almost not as important as just getting an Official Line drawn. Maybe this is just one more thing to add to the wish list of major changes for any future 6E.

 

HM

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I have studied this and I really think Christopher is right - nothing in the system does this very well' date=' not directly that is, right now....[/quote']

Wow, I appreciate the comparison you did.

 

When I got into the whole comparison costing of the Damage Shield Power, I soon realized that the Adjustment Powers were completely inconsistent with the other standard powers. And even within the Adjustment Powers themselves they were inconsistent with costing and structure. I eventually gave up just because there was no way to evaluate Adjustment Powers effectively.

 

I could created an entirely new thread on the inconsistencies of Adjustment Powers, but there wouldn't be any constructive point in doing so.

 

Thank you for pointing out clearly the problem, the problem that I have been trying to resolve with a new power.

 

And I'm going to point it out again, I think that replacing END Reserve with a more generic Reserve, that isn't tied to small number SFX, would enhance the system overall.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Southern Cross]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Oh,Hyper-Man,that was how Endurance Reserves worked back before 4th Edition,when they were called Endurance Batteries..