New Power: Adjustment Reserve

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve (Revision 1)

 

Hmmm... interesting. So AR is weaker than a comparable Aid. The determining factor appears to be that the Fade Rate mechanic is Turn based where the AR is based on power use.

 

Well this certainly qualms my fear of the AR being too powerful a construct.

Should the cost be reduced in some manner?

Should the mechanic be modified to work differently?

 

Opinions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I did not say AR was weaker. I said that option 1 of my example was weaker. Options 3,4 and 5 are actually more powerfull if taking active points into consideration. Assuming that the character with this power has a STR of X+10, AR option 5 could be used to boost the character's STR to 75+X for one phase. That may not seem troublesome on the surface but consider that any extra DC's above any established campaign limits on attacks and defenses functions virtually like NND damage.

 

BTW, here is another example to compare against:

 

Adjustment Pool: Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 15 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (135 Active Points); all slots Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per Minute; -2), Limited Class Of Powers Available Very Limited (Can only add to existing abilities; -1), Limited Special Effect Uncommon SFX (His own powers; -1) [Treat the Fuel as a built in Figured Endurance Reserve of very low recovery.]

 

HM

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Electrode

Electrode draws electrical energy around him to boost his electrical attacks. He must draw the electricty in first before he can deliver his massive electrical storm to stun the opponents around him. He has other powers but this is favorite.

 

Comparison

 

"By The Book Method"

 

Boost Electrical Attack

10d6 (30 Pt Pool Set Effect) Aid: Succor

- Any Power Of A Given SFX One At A Time +1/4

- x10 Increased END -2

- Maximum Effect -1

- Must Share Pool Points -1

- Draws END From END Reserve +0

Active Points: 62.5 Points

Real Cost: 15.625 Points

END: 36 (30 Set Effect) Points

 

Electricity Pool

END Reserve (62 Points)

Active Points: 62 Points

Real Cost: 6.2 Points

 

END Reserve Recovery (5 Pts)

- Linked to Electricity Siphon -1/2

Active Points: 5 Points

Real Cost: 3.33 Points

 

Electricity Siphon

1d6 (3 Points Set Effect) Drain

- Any Power Of Given SFX One At A Time +1/4

Active Points: 12.5 Points

Real Cost: 12.5 Points

END: 1 Point

 

Total Active Points: 142 Points

Total Real Cost: 37.655 Points

Total END: 31 Points

 

This is only way to create this and still be book legal and not require the GM Permission or GM to Hand-wave a rule.

1) Aid excerpt: "...points gained from an Aid fade at the rate of 5 Active Points per Turn, even if the Aided Charcteristic of Power was below it's starting level. (To restore lost Characteristics or Powers permanently, use Healing, ...)". GM has no other official option and would have hand-wave this rule.

2) END Reserve excerpt: "...Endurance Reserves cannot Recover more frequently than once per Turn..."

3) END Reserve excerpt: "...Unless the GM rules otherwise, characters cannot use Healing END to replenish the END in an Endurance Reserve..."

4) Aid: Succor excerpt: "...As long as he keeps succeeding with his Attack Rolls, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for regular Aid..."

 

 

"New Power Method"

 

Boost Electrical Attack

Adjustment Reserve (30 Pt Pool)

- Any Power Of A Given SFX One At A Time +0

Active Points: 30 Points

Real Cost: 30 Points

 

Adjustment Reserve Recovery (5 Pts)

1d6 (3 Pts Set Effect) Healing

- Linked to Electricity Siphon -1/2

Active Points: 10 Points

Real Cost: 6.66 Points

 

Electricity Siphon

1d6 (3 Points Set Effect) Drain

- Any Power Of Given SFX One At A Time +1/4

Active Points: 12.5 Points

Real Cost: 12.5 Points

END: 1 Points

 

Total Active Points: 52.5 Points

Total Real Cost: 49.16 Points

Total END: 1 Point

 

Comments

 

[Addendum]

Just realized that this concept can not be done legally with an END Reserve. Excerpt number two forbids an END Reserve from recovering more frequently than one Turn, and there is no other way to feed END into the pool that would be permanent.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve (Revision 1)

 

I did not say AR was weaker. I said that option 1 of my example was weaker. Options 3,4 and 5 are actually more powerfull if taking active points into consideration. Assuming that the character with this power has a STR of X+10, AR option 5 could be used to boost the character's STR to 75+X for one phase. That may not seem troublesome on the surface but consider that any extra DC's above any established campaign limits on attacks and defenses functions virtually like NND damage.

 

BTW, here is another example to compare against:

 

Adjustment Pool: Variable Power Pool, 60 base + 15 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (135 Active Points); all slots Fuel Dependent (fuel is Common; must refuel Once per Minute; -2), Limited Class Of Powers Available Very Limited (Can only add to existing abilities; -1), Limited Special Effect Uncommon SFX (His own powers; -1) [Treat the Fuel as a built in Figured Endurance Reserve of very low recovery.]

 

HM

Ah, I misunderstood then. So it varies depending on the power level.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

However' date=' there is one thing I'd like to clarify that you've misunderstood about my stance. If people want to hand wave rules, great, I don't have a problem with it. If they want to create thier own powers/systems/whatever, great, I don't have a problem with it. But when someone is willing to hand-wave away current rules, and then has a problem with my construct because it isn't using the existing rules, then I'm going view that as being somewhat hyprocritical and inconsistent from a logic point of view. It just doesn't make any sense. Especially since creating new mechanics is part of the existing rules. I just don't understand that.[/quote']

 

I don't see it as hypocritical. It's just a matter of interpretation. Using Healing for Regeneration for example. The mechanics are there as a guideline, not as a this means this structure. It's why you can write up a laser using EB, Flash and even Drain, even though we all know lasers are Killing Attacks.

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

The fact that Zornwil does is a pleasant change from the norm.

 

Well, I only did begrudgingly...

 

I think this is okay, as stated, but I think the REAL fix is to entirely rework Adjustment Powers. However, no great minds have been able to do so yet, so as an additional power, I think this works. I should say I stop short of endorsing it for inclusion in the real core rules until it's been tested/analyzed more. But it is a reasonable candidate - IMHO more reasonable than the existing build for END Battery.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

However' date=' there is one thing I'd like to clarify that you've misunderstood about my stance. If people want to hand wave rules, great, I don't have a problem with it. If they want to create thier own powers/systems/whatever, great, I don't have a problem with it. But when someone is willing to hand-wave away current rules, and then has a problem with my construct because it isn't using the existing rules, then I'm going view that as being somewhat hyprocritical and inconsistent from a logic point of view. It just doesn't make any sense. Especially since creating new mechanics is part of the existing rules. I just don't understand that.[/quote']

Well, my personal take on it is that making a small judgement call or mechanic change to existing rules is far easier and more straightforward than creating a whole new power that (as others have said) creates another level of complexity, since you have to worry about how it interacts with a whole ton of existing Powers and Modifiers.

 

On the other hand, perhaps I am a little hypocritical in this in that I tend to create Advantages and Limitations (or varients, or adjust the values of existing ones) pretty readily. I guess I see the Powers as being the foundation for everything, and creating quite well a basis for constructing just about anything. Advantages and Limitations are just the struts and beams you throw on top to get the structures you want. They tend to produce fewer (though admittedly still quite a few--especially of late) exceptions and complications. I view Advantages and Limitations as things that are meant to be played with frequently (I think the, "Limited Power," Limitation is a good indicator). You can and should do anything with them; what is left to be argued is the cost of the modifier. I view Powers as something that need to be changed very very rarely.

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

...IMHO more reasonable than the existing build for END Battery.

Ha! Well, I'll agree with you there...begrudgingly.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

So, it would seem that the AR Method is more Expensive than the Legal Method.

 

Does this say anything about the balance?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Ha! Well' date=' I'll agree with you there...begrudgingly. [/quote']

Okay, hypocrite.

 

(PS - I can be pretty liberal about modifiers, too, I agree it's basically a guideline)

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

So, it would seem that the AR Method is more Expensive than the Legal Method.

 

Does this say anything about the balance?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

What I came up with was very similar to your "by the rules" version.

 

Functionally, they are more or less identical. If you wanted to be able to boost more than one Power at a time (by dividing up the available points), it would cost more. I have no idea how it could be cleanly built, or even if it can be cleanly built, but it should cost more than this or else you are gaining more affect for fewer points.

 

That's a pretty big technical issue. How much is that worth? How can it be costed into the existing Adjustment Powers? Should it be costed into the existing Adjustment Powers?

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I had a thought with regard to the application of this proposed Power as a Zero-Phase action ("when the adjusted Power is used"). It probably shouldn't be allowed if other Adjustment Powers cannot be used this way, but I have thought of an Adder that could be applied to any beneficial Adjustment Power (Aid, Succor, Healing) to allow it to be used as a Zero-Phase action.

 

Start off assuming everyone has a Speed of 4 (high-end for Heroic games, typically low-end for Superheroic, but probably a good approximate average overall). In order to perform an "attack action as a Zero-Phase action," base it on +4 Speed, with some Modifiers. Use of the extra Speed will cost some End by default because it will be an adder on a Power that costs End, but it is nowhere near the amount a Costs End Speed would cost, so just consider it a balancing factor rather than applying a Limitation for this. Now, the extra Phases can be used only to apply the base Power, which is a very hefty Limitation (you cannot make offensive attacks, Recover, Recover from Being Stunned, move, it doesn't bump you earlier on the Speed Chart, etc.), so I think it merits a -2. Constant Powers will not have additional effect on these "extra Phases", but neither will you have to pay End for them or count them as Phases for Continuing Charges, so I think this merits a +/-0.

 

So here is what I propose to base the Adder on (as an Adder, Limitations on the base Power will decrease the cost, but so will Advantages increase it, so I think it balances out):

+4 Speed;

[40 Base, 40 Active]

 

Can only be used to apply specific beneficial Adjustment Power (-2);

Does not affect Constant Powers (-0);

 

[13 Real]

So I propose the following Adder for Adjustment Powers:

Zero-Phase Appliction

This +15 Adder can be applied to any beneficial Adjustment Power (e.g. Aid and Healing, but not Dispel, Drain, Suppress, or Transfer). When applied, it allows the modified Adjustment Power to be used as a Zero-Phase action, but the Adjustment Power may still only be used once per Phase.

Actually, that last about only activating the Power once per Phase is only for clarity. It is an, "official rule," anyway (I saw it in the FAQs, not sure if it is in the actual 5ER rulebook).

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I had a thought with regard to the application of this proposed Power as a Zero-Phase action ("when the adjusted Power is used"). It probably shouldn't be allowed if other Adjustment Powers cannot be used this way, but I have thought of an Adder that could be applied to any beneficial Adjustment Power (Aid, Succor, Healing) to allow it to be used as a Zero-Phase action.

 

Start off assuming everyone has a Speed of 4 (high-end for Heroic games, typically low-end for Superheroic, but probably a good approximate average overall). In order to perform an "attack action as a Zero-Phase action," base it on +4 Speed, with some Modifiers. Use of the extra Speed will cost some End by default because it will be an adder on a Power that costs End, but it is nowhere near the amount a Costs End Speed would cost, so just consider it a balancing factor rather than applying a Limitation for this. Now, the extra Phases can be used only to apply the base Power, which is a very hefty Limitation (you cannot make offensive attacks, Recover, Recover from Being Stunned, move, it doesn't bump you earlier on the Speed Chart, etc.), so I think it merits a -2. Constant Powers will not have additional effect on these "extra Phases", but neither will you have to pay End for them or count them as Phases for Continuing Charges, so I think this merits a +/-0.

 

So here is what I propose to base the Adder on (as an Adder, Limitations on the base Power will decrease the cost, but so will Advantages increase it, so I think it balances out):

+4 Speed;

[40 Base, 40 Active]

 

Can only be used to apply specific beneficial Adjustment Power (-2);

Does not affect Constant Powers (-0);

 

[13 Real]

So I propose the following Adder for Adjustment Powers:

Zero-Phase Appliction

This +15 Adder can be applied to any beneficial Adjustment Power (e.g. Aid and Healing, but not Dispel, Drain, Suppress, or Transfer). When applied, it allows the modified Adjustment Power to be used as a Zero-Phase action, but the Adjustment Power may still only be used once per Phase.

Actually, that last about only activating the Power once per Phase is only for clarity. It is an, "official rule," anyway (I saw it in the FAQs, not sure if it is in the actual 5ER rulebook).

Interesting adder, I see nothing inherently wrong with it. Not sure about he cost of the adder since it's hard to gage such things without testing it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Protec]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

The time I can see this new power being more powerful than standard adjustment powers is when applied to a framework slot.

 

Unless you have to boost the entire framework like you do with aid, a character can buy a ton of cheap magical spells in a multipower, then use the pool as a 'mana reserve' to add an extra 20-30 active points on to each spell, instead of dumping twice the number of points into an aid used to mimic the same ability

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

The time I can see this new power being more powerful than standard adjustment powers is when applied to a framework slot.

 

Unless you have to boost the entire framework like you do with aid, a character can buy a ton of cheap magical spells in a multipower, then use the pool as a 'mana reserve' to add an extra 20-30 active points on to each spell, instead of dumping twice the number of points into an aid used to mimic the same ability

Obviously you've missed some of the mechanic restrictions.

 

Yes, technically you could purchase a AR and use it to boost a bunch of spells in a Mulitpower. But there are couple of problems with that.

 

1) As far as I know, the slots of a Multipower aren't allowed to exceed the number of points in the Multipower. I'm not sure that Adjustment Powers allows you to circumvent that rule, unless of course as you suggest, you boost the Framework also. Even so, my AR isn't treated any different in that respect.

2) Allowing that boost the Framework, it would be a one shot deal, unless you pay the extra points to refill the AR pool, you've just used up a bunch of points and only got a single use out of it. Even with spending the points to refill the AR, that requires time, so again, you're really wasting a lot of points.

 

Unless I misunderstood your scenario, I think I've answered your question sufficiently.

 

BTW: I was really surprised to see this thread pop up again.

 

- Christopher Mullins