New Power: Adjustment Reserve

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Dust Raven, as to Succor, on page 134 of 5ER, it says "As long as he keeps succeeding with his Attack Rolls, the character can keep adding effect this way without worrying about the maximum effect rules for regular Aid."

 

The special rules for 0 END Succor are the same as those given for Suppress, it's indicated on that same page.

Oh my gosh! More exceptions?! New ones? Why?!?!? This is insane!

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Actually' date=' rereading your intent again, I realized this is not a 0 End Succor. It actually functions exactly like a Succor attached to an End Reserve with [i']exactly enough End to power the whole Succor once[/i].

Actually, no it doesn't, it kind of/sort of mimic the Construct in a similar manner. Obviously you don't see the difference between the two in actual use. Oh well, such is life. Obviously I've failed to communicate adequately how my construct actually works.

 

Therefore' date=' I would build it (or base the cost on, if you insist) as a Succor that can affect any power, one at a time, and a second Power that is an End Reserve with 1 End per 10 APs in the Succor (with included Advantages for affecting any Power). I [i']wouldn't[/i] increase the End cost of the Succor, as it is marked quite clearly to watch for Powers with Increased End Cost that are powered off an End Reserve.

Actually, I wasn't insisting on Succor for anything, everyone else who has tried to show a book legal way of doing this seemed to gravitate towards using it, except Dust Raven, who failed to match the pool mechanic with the VPP. And up to that point the VPP showed the most promise for matching the pool effect, but after we are left with Adjustment Powers and the only other pool construct available to us rules wise is END. So to show just how wacky the construct had to be to match the Adjustment Reserve, I built it with only the rules in the 5th Edition Revised. Now to match the mechanic of having the AP directly tied to the Drain Rate of the Pool, I had to equate the END with the Active Points of Succor would boost the stats/powers. This requires the x10 END modifier, there's not leaving it off, it must be there in order for the mechanic to match what the Adjustment Reserve does, and even with it, it still falls short of emulating the construct properly, but it comes closer than anything else. So no, you can't leave it out, if you do, your construct moves farther away from the intended goal. Since the book warns against this, obviously there is huge gaping hole in the rules for abuse in this area. Therefore, the problem would be the current rules, not the construct I using, since my construct is still in development and can't be evaluated as solid rule until this process is done.

 

So judging my construct now is like judging a cake that hasn't been baked yet. It might look like a mess, but if all the ingredients are properly added and mixed, the cake will still turn out fine. (8^D)

 

What I'm asking for is help in determing the right ingredients and method of mixing.

 

This will scale nicely' date=' as the amount of extra End needed will then be exactly proportional to any additional Advantages you place on the Succor.[/quote']What are you talking about? Advantages increase the Active Points and only the END by 1/10, In order to make END = AP directly your going to need to increase the END Limitation to match the Active Points. By not doing this, you lose granularity of the drain to the pool by factor of at least 10. You move further away from the mechnic being proposed.

 

Note that this works for your Persistent Power example as well' date=' as any Power fueled from an End Reserve will automatically keep drawing from it if you are Stunned or Knocked Out. However, I wouldn't make its application to a Persistent Power expend End every Segment. I would make it every Phase (or every Phase in which the character would normally act given his last active Speed) like every other application.[/quote']

Actually, I'm shocked that you would even think such a thing was possible with Persistent Powers. Persistent powers can't cost END, by the rules. Another point in favor of the Adjustment Reserve, it's independent of END and therefore isn't restricted in this manner. Thank you for pointing this out. But I will take note of the possible change from segment to phase, I thought segment would be more balancing, since a persistent power never stops. The boosted part of it would stop with my construct, but with yours, if you allowed it, would not be book legal.

 

I would then base the Advantages of applying the points to multiple powers at once on the amount the Succor (and necessary End Reserve) will increase in value when you apply like Advantages.

So forcing the same advantages on both, you can, but it's not by the book. Or perhaps you mean that at pont in time you would have to increase both to match. So? That's how all complex constructs work; EC, MP, VPP. And it doesn't scale nicely. Just my opinion.

 

I agree with Dust Raven that the construct (however built) should probably be SFX-restricted' date=' at least at base value.[/quote']

Totally agree. As I've said before. The question is should be further restricted, as I've proposed?

 

Now' date=' as for the Succor argument, I don't think it is entirely unbalanced to buy a Succor at 0 End. I think of an Aid as basically a Succor built as Costs End Only to Activate (see below) and Uncontrolled (there is an extra +1/4 if you consider Costs End Only to Activate as a +1/4, but I'm sure someone who nitpicked the differences could come up with some difference that could make that up, or we could just be laid back and hand wave it away as a scaling balancer). The balancing factor for Uncontrolled is that the points must bleed off at a rate of 5 per Turn, and this can only be slowed through a greater Advantage value. Note that this is somewhat similar to the mechanic that is used in a lot of spell constructs in Fantasy Hero/Grimoire: the spell lasts a number of Turns/Hours/whatever based on the amount by which you succeed at a RSR.[/quote']

I'll ignore the comments on Succor Zero END. I've made my point, and not has to agree, but if you want to convince me otherwise, you'll have to come up with something a lot better than that.

 

Now you've proposed the Uncontrolled Advantage, which is intrigueing... one moment... okay reread that section. Sorry, it has problems, first the pool is based on END and I've already covered the problem with equating Active Points with END, second Uncontrolled requires a turn off switch, and third each use of an uncontrolled is self contained and therefore would turn the Succor into a unlimited max boost ability since you could max each power/stat out with each use.

 

Furthermore, if you are willing to hand wave away the existing rules to get what you want, why even bother telling me that my construct isn't needed because you can do it with the existing? Hmmm... seems a bit illogical to me. Plus, again, I never said that it could not be done with existing rules, just that it becomes overly complex. The current examples given so far have clearly shown, in my opinion, exactly how complex doing becomes. Thank you for highlighting that.

 

As for the use of Costs End Only to Activate' date=' you can keep arguing that this is an invalid construct, but that's the way the Aid works relative to Succor, and I don't particularly care if it is technically an illegal construct; so many people use Costs End Only to Activate as a +1/4 Advantage that I think the argument is moot, whatever is in the rulebook. Besides, the whole [i']intent[/i] of Costs End Only to Activate, as described in 5th ed., was to create an attack that you could spend End on once and then keep using for the rest of the battle.

Who's arguing? Hey, don't take it out on me for what Steve Long ruled in the FAQs for the 5th Edition and 5th Edition Revised. (8^D)

 

Go argue with him if you think he's wrong. Tell him to change it. I'll be waiting for that update to the "Official Rules". Won't bother me a bit. Someone used that Advantage in an example that was susposed to be using the current rules. Unfortunately, Steve Long said it's not a legal construct. (8^D)

 

There ARE NO ATTACKS THAT COST 0 END TO BEGIN WITH' date=' so if you argue that it can only be taken on a Power that costs 0 End naturally, THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS CONSTRUCT IS COMPLETELY LOST....[/quote']

Ahhh, I see what's happened, you've misread one my posts. My construct, that is the Adjustment Reserve, doesn't care if the power/stat costs endurance or not. Please check my initial post or the repost of it on this page. I don't think you'll find my construct says anything about Endurance for the Adjustment Reserve. I did use the "END Reserve" to extrapolate from to create the Adjustment Reserve, but the points inside are Active Points not END Points. So I'll ignore the rest of the paragraph, it has no meaning now since it's based on a false premise.

 

Okay. Sorry about the vehemence of my wording. That is the last time I am going to argue over that one. I am' date=' as always, willing to hear your arguments to the contrary, but I've stated my opinion and will leave it at that.[/quote']

What vehemence, you obviously thought I was off my gourd about something and was incredulous about it. Understandable. However, incorrect. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

By the way' date=' when considering new constructs, Modifiers, Powers, etc., I usually calculate Active Points, Real Points, End costs, etc. on real/rational numbers, rather than trying to do rounding on each die, buying some arbitrarily large version of the power and rounding, or whatever. It gives a better feel for the overall amortized cost, and is a good indicator anyway if you are just going to use it as a basis for a new cost.[/quote']

And that's exactly why I went back and redid the post. I did it just as you've suggested and gave the exact values to represent that.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

This will be a roadblock' date=' or at least a speedbump. We seem to agree on what the rules actually say, but completely disagree that it's some kind of a problem. I think the rules work fine like that, are perfectly reasonable and balanced. It seems you do not.[/quote']

I figured as much, which is why I didn't really want to get into it in too much depth, but unfortunately people just have to know why. (8^D)

 

I had no intention in making anyone agree with me on that, but I'm willing to listen if someone thinks they can persuade me otherwise.

 

I did not overlook anything. I simply do not have 5ER. I'm basing all of my agruements on 5E and the original FAQ.

Ahhh, now the confusion makes sense. Just presume what I saying is true when I say certain rules are true and others are not. Zornwil and others will jump my case if I've make a grievous error concerning the book legal rules. I not only try go over them with a fine toothed comb, I also try to go over Steve Longs interpretation of those rules. (8^D)

 

I don't know about a +2 Advantage that allows an Adjustment Power to be used for anything' date=' nor do I know what you mean my "Max Effect -1" (I'm pretty sure you're not talking about a Limitation that allows for maximum effect against the target).[/quote']

Most adjustment powers have Maximum Effect of the Dice x 6 points. The Aid variant Succor was specifically given no maximum limit of effect, like Drain. So there's no upper limit to how much you can boost your powers/stat with Succor, they are cumlative by default, per the rules.

 

Actually' date=' I have done no such thing. If anything, you have proven that your new Power is absoslutely unecessary since the exact mechanic can be built using the existing rules (at least they way you use them). If the end result is overbalancing, it should tell you something about your own new Power and how balanced it really is.[/quote']

Actually, I try to make the most of the english language. I said it kind of / sort of simulated the mechanic and it comes closer to any of the other constructs to matching what mine does so easily. My examples cleary show how far you have to push the, book legal, rules in order to get close. And it's a simple concept and shouldn't be that difficult to come up with something that only gets close to what's wanted. So yes, in my opinion, you've helped show just how wacky the constructs can get and still not meet the required mechanics.

 

Equating END to AP creates a imbalance when tracking END. And if you happen to have a Naked Power Advantage that increases END on the boosted power, the Succor fails. However, the Adjustment Reserve works smoothly with it since it's not tied directly to END.

 

Now, back to the more elegant construct, Adjustment Reserve. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Schir1964' date=' I'm not so sure about "Variable Effect Advantage +2 to affect any power/stat one at a time" - where is that cite? I know you can buy +2 to affect all characteristics/powers "with related special effects" (top of p. 112). I know you can also purchase Multiple Special Effects for +1/4 to +2. It indicates that to affect multiple SFX, if you already are using Varying Effect, that you can affect the specific number powers and characteristics that you have already defined with Variable Effect for ANY SFX for a +2 additional advantage.[/quote']

Yeah, I knew someone would latch onto that. Ok, here we go... (8^D)

 

Instead of defining a Variable Effect power as affecting a pure special effect, a character can define it as working against any similiarly related Characteristics and/or Powers...

And an example is given of four powers at once for a +1 value. So if it follows that standard doubling for every +1/2 as shown, then a +2 would be 16 Powers/stats. Not enough you say?!!! Howabout +3 for 64 Powers/Stats. Ok, you caught me, I skimmed an advantage point. (8^D)

 

< Humble Bow To Zornwil >

 

PS - and as I stated in post 47' date=' I don't think you can say that what schir1964 wants can be built easily with the existing Succor or other applications. Please see that post for where the klooges come in.[/quote']Thank you! Someone understands!! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Oh my gosh! More exceptions?! New ones? Why?!?!? This is insane!

Perhaps you will be more circumspect before responding to my obvious insanity. (8^D)

 

And I'll say it again, the inconsistencies within the Adjustment Powers themselves, have convinced me that they can not be adequately evaluated for what benefits they give. And using them for a baseline comparison for balance is an exercise in folly. (8^D)

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Therefore' date=' the problem would be the current rules, not the construct I using, since my construct is still in development and can't be evaluated as solid rule until this process is done.[/quote']

If you want to read the rules like a legally binding document, yes. But in that case very little can be done with them. Hence the, "Limited Power," Limitation.

 

So judging my construct now is like judging a cake that hasn't been baked yet. It might look like a mess, but if all the ingredients are properly added and mixed, the cake will still turn out fine.

So in asking us to judge how balanced you construct is, we are not allowed to compare it to how existing Powers and Modifiers might be used to do the same thing, and if we do we are all in the wrong because your idea is half-baked and shouldn't be judged? I think I'm a little confused.

 

Actually, I'm shocked that you would even think such a thing was possible with Persistent Powers. Persistent powers can't cost END, by the rules.

No, but Adjustment Powers that modify them definitely can, and are Constant, not Persistent, in the cases of Succor and Suppress. These Powers, when fed off an End Reserve, continue to function if you are Stunned or Knocked Out.

 

I'll ignore the comments on Succor Zero END. I've made my point, and not has to agree, but if you want to convince me otherwise, you'll have to come up with something a lot better than that.

 

Now you've proposed the Uncontrolled Advantage, which is intrigueing... one moment... okay reread that section. Sorry, it has problems, first the pool is based on END and I've already covered the problem with equating Active Points with END, second Uncontrolled requires a turn off switch, and third each use of an uncontrolled is self contained and therefore would turn the Succor into a unlimited max boost ability since you could max each power/stat out with each use.

 

Furthermore, if you are willing to hand wave away the existing rules to get what you want, why even bother telling me that my construct isn't needed because you can do it with the existing? Hmmm... seems a bit illogical to me. Plus, again, I never said that it could not be done with existing rules, just that it becomes overly complex. The current examples given so far have clearly shown, in my opinion, exactly how complex doing becomes. Thank you for highlighting that.

...

Who's arguing? Hey, don't take it out on me for what Steve Long ruled in the FAQs for the 5th Edition and 5th Edition Revised. (8^D)

 

Go argue with him if you think he's wrong. Tell him to change it. I'll be waiting for that update to the "Official Rules". Won't bother me a bit. Someone used that Advantage in an example that was susposed to be using the current rules. Unfortunately, Steve Long said it's not a legal construct. (8^D)

...

Ahhh, I see what's happened, you've misread one my posts. My construct, that is the Adjustment Reserve, doesn't care if the power/stat costs endurance or not. Please check my initial post or the repost of it on this page. I don't think you'll find my construct says anything about Endurance for the Adjustment Reserve. I did use the "END Reserve" to extrapolate from to create the Adjustment Reserve, but the points inside are Active Points not END Points. So I'll ignore the rest of the paragraph, it has no meaning now since it's based on a false premise.

...

What vehemence, you obviously thought I was off my gourd about something and was incredulous about it. Understandable. However, incorrect.

Again, not going to re-argue this, but I will say that from the dividing line below I was saying absolutely nothing about your construct at all. It was purely about 0 End Succor and Costs End Only to Activate. I did not think you were off your gourd, nor was I attempting to take any official ruling out on you. I am more disgusted with an insistence on word-for-word interpretation of all rules (as if that were even possible) and the direction the FAQs/Revised is taking the system; it is becoming so full of exceptions and sub-clauses that it lacks the simple elegance of the Hero I know and love. That kind of thing can make me vehement, and it is nothing personal.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

If you want to read the rules like a legally binding document' date=' yes. But in that case very little can be done with them. Hence the, "Limited Power," Limitation.[/quote']

Obviously, you are still misreading me. That's ok, it usually happens when I start one of these threads. (8^D)

 

I'm not saying you can't follow the rules, which is what you statement seems to imply, but if the rules (Book & FAQs) specifically say one thing or another is invalid or illegal, the it's invalid/illegal to use. And all I was doing was clarifying what things were invalid/illegal per the rules.

 

To use you reference above, it would be ludicrous for me to tell you that any limitation you came up with was invalid/illegal, but it would make perfect sense for me to challenge any value you assigned to said limitation, if it could be shown, by the guidelines in the book, that the value was incorrect.

 

So you've misread what I've been doing in my posts. If someone says they can do something with the existing rules, I believe them and will question them when they deviate from the existing rules. No harm, no foul. That's why I haven't taken any offense to any of the things posted about my construct. I expect everything I've defined to be challenged and since I'm not a number cruncher and balance in the Hero System is so complex, I realize that my construct may need to change in order to make it something usable by anyone who would want to.

 

So in asking us to judge how balanced you construct is' date=' we are not allowed to compare it to how existing Powers and Modifiers might be used to do the same thing, and if we do we are all in the wrong because your idea is half-baked and shouldn't be judged? I think I'm a little confused.[/quote']

< Grin > Understandable. It's ok. I'm saying that using mechanics that are inconsistent and has some evident internal balance problems, would not be the best choices to use as a baseline to compare my construct against. It would be like letting someone taste an orange and ask them how an apple tastes when they haven't tasted either. What good would the answer be?

 

No' date=' but Adjustment Powers that modify them definitely can, and are Constant, not Persistent, in the cases of Succor and Suppress. These Powers, when fed off an End Reserve, continue to function if you are Stunned or Knocked Out.[/quote']

Ok, so the only useful application I could see this being used for, would be defenses.

 

Hmmm....

 

Okay!! Good point, thanks for bringing that out. It's a nice side point, but doesn't really address the other major problems I've already listed.

 

Again' date=' not going to re-argue this...[/quote']

Agreed, just didn't realize that you didn't have all the information concerning the Adjustment Powers. Glad to be of help. (8^D)

 

- Chirstopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I think this whole discussion, start to finish, is a direct result of the lack of elegance in and outright broken nature of Adjustment Powers. I surely hope that this is addressed in 6th edition in a decade or whatever. The idea of adding points to powers in this fashion just shouldn't be an issue, it should be an obvious and simple component of the very existence of Adjustment Powers, it is, after all, the very basis for their existence.

 

Yeah, I know... :deadhorse:

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve (Revision 1)

 

Adjustment Reserve Special/Persistent [Caution Sign]

Definition

This power allows the character to create a pool of Active Points that can be used to increase a power of a given SFX. The power and SFX must be decided when the pool is purchased. The pool can be expanded to allow more powers or SFX that can be increased by applying Advantages (see below).

 

Pool

The points in the pool are used up each time a power is used to increase it's ability. How many points a power draws from the pool is based on the Active Points that power is currently using. Instant Powers draw from the pool each time they are used. Constant powers draw from pool when it is used and at the beginning of each phase that the power remains in use. Once the pool is empty, no powers can be increased until it has recovered some active points.

 

Pool Recovery

Internal Recovery: Recovery Points can be purchased for the pool. These points are added back into the pool at the end of each turn. This recovery is automatic.

External Recovery: Points can be fed into the pool by another power. The frequency and conditions that the points are fed is determined by the power being used. Usually this method is not automatic.

 

Costs No Endurance

 

Reserve Cost: 1 Pt / 1 Active Point (One Power Of Given SFX At A Time)

REC Cost: 2 Pts / 1 REC

 

Advantages

2 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1/2

4 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1

8 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1 1/2

All Powers of Given SFX Simultaneously: +2

x2 Number Of SFX: +1/2

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I think this whole discussion, start to finish, is a direct result of the lack of elegance in and outright broken nature of Adjustment Powers. I surely hope that this is addressed in 6th edition in a decade or whatever. The idea of adding points to powers in this fashion just shouldn't be an issue, it should be an obvious and simple component of the very existence of Adjustment Powers, it is, after all, the very basis for their existence.

 

Yeah, I know... :deadhorse:

Well, it looks like it's up to me to determine if this construct is balanced or not. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Well, it looks like it's up to me to determine if this construct is balanced or not. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Unfortunately that's what it looks like.

 

What is this supposed to simulate anyway? I can't think of any source material that has an ability like this (or that has to work this way and not another way).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve (Revision 1)

 

Adjustment Reserve Special/Persistent [Caution Sign]

Definition

This power allows the character to create a pool of Active Points that can be used to increase a power of a given SFX. The power and SFX must be decided when the pool is purchased. The pool can be expanded to allow more powers or SFX that can be increased by applying Advantages (see below).

 

Pool

The points in the pool are used up each time a power is used to increase it's ability. How many points a power draws from the pool is based on the Active Points that power is currently using. Instant Powers draw from the pool each time they are used. Constant powers draw from pool when it is used and at the beginning of each phase that the power remains in use. Once the pool is empty, no powers can be increased until it has recovered some active points.

 

Pool Recovery

Internal Recovery: Recovery Points can be purchased for the pool. These points are added back into the pool at the end of each turn. This recovery is automatic.

External Recovery: Points can be fed into the pool by another power. The frequency and conditions that the points are fed is determined by the power being used. Usually this method is not automatic.

 

Costs No Endurance

 

Reserve Cost: 1 Pt / 1 Active Point (One Power Of Given SFX At A Time)

REC Cost: 2 Pts / 1 REC

 

Advantages

2 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1/2

4 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1

8 Powers Of Given SFX Simultaneously: +1 1/2

All Powers of Given SFX Simultaneously: +2

x2 Number Of SFX: +1/2

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Let's compare an extremely simple application of this vs. Aid.

 

Aid 6d6 Variable Effect: 1 power Of Given SFX (+1/4)

75 real points

standard effect would give a character +18 active points to any one power or characteristic with the standard fade rate of -5/turn.

 

Adjustment Reserve with no advantages.

Possible configurations of Reserve+Recovery:

1. 25+25
   
2. 35+20
   
3. 45+15
   
4. 55+10
   
5. 65+5
   

75 real points

Option 1 is probably the closest to the Aid but is still weaker in the long run assuming a SPD higher than 3. Option 5 would blow away any reasonable application of campaign active point limits.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Unfortunately that's what it looks like.

 

What is this supposed to simulate anyway? I can't think of any source material that has an ability like this (or that has to work this way and not another way).

Source material-wise, I could see it as good for any characters who seem to have sudden surges of power that can't be explained away with just push or VPP. Naturally we're also falling into plot-device land, but I think ways to emulate certain common plot device tricks is okay, depending on how well it can be done and whether it wrecks the game of course.

 

It could also be a good way to handle where you want to add to powers without fudging via VPP or doing MP, so a sort of substitute framework. However, it would need to be balanced against those.

 

I also would say that really the idea of just putting points into different powers and going over a maximum should be something easy to extrapolate if we really handled the whole Adjustment concept well enough. I know we have arguments even on basics like damage, but I think those discussions are much more consistent and better informed than these Adjustment arguments.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Unfortunately that's what it looks like.

 

What is this supposed to simulate anyway? I can't think of any source material that has an ability like this (or that has to work this way and not another way).

Funny you should ask that...

 

I was thinking of different ways this mechanic could be applied and realized that it might make Mimic SFX much easier to handle.

 

Mimics SFX are near impossible to handle with just Adjustment Powers and a I've heard numerous complaints about using a VPP being too cumbersome.

 

You'd have to House Rule away one rule in the Hero 5th Edition Revised in order to make it work, but based on the posts so far, it seems it's common place to do so.

 

House Rule: Mimic Advantage +2, Adjustment Reserve can be used to mimic another character's power (even if said power doesn't exist in the characters own powers).

 

Just throwing out numbers for balance, but the mechanic I think is sound. Could be much more straight forward way to handle a Rogue-like character.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve (Revision 1)

 

Let's compare an extremely simple application of this vs. Aid.

 

Aid 6d6 Variable Effect: 1 power Of Given SFX (+1/4)

75 real points

standard effect would give a character +18 active points to any one power or characteristic with the standard fade rate of -5/turn.

 

Adjustment Reserve with no advantages.

Possible configurations of Reserve+Recovery:

1. 25+25
   
2. 35+20
   
3. 45+15
   
4. 55+10
   
5. 65+5
   

75 real points

Option 1 is probably the closest to the Aid but is still weaker in the long run assuming a SPD higher than 3. Option 5 would blow away any reasonable application of campaign active point limits.

 

HM

Hmmm... interesting. So AR is weaker than a comparable Aid. The determining factor appears to be that the Fade Rate mechanic is Turn based where the AR is based on power use.

 

Well this certainly qualms my fear of the AR being too powerful a construct.

Should the cost be reduced in some manner?

Should the mechanic be modified to work differently?

 

Opinions?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

This is starting to sound like Transform on a bad day...

 

Using a VPP for a Mimic Pool is just one method of mimicing things, and there aren't any rules that have to be waved for it to work. Adding in "gets powers from nowhere" is just making this Adjustment Reserve too powerful, if it isn't already.

 

What can it really do though? If all it can really simulate is a mimic ability you've constructed it all wrong.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

This is starting to sound like Transform on a bad day...

 

Using a VPP for a Mimic Pool is just one method of mimicing things, and there aren't any rules that have to be waved for it to work. Adding in "gets powers from nowhere" is just making this Adjustment Reserve too powerful, if it isn't already.

 

What can it really do though? If all it can really simulate is a mimic ability you've constructed it all wrong.

Okay, guess you forgot the original SFX that caused me to create this construct in the first place.

 

Any SFX, that would entail a pool of energy to boost ones abilities and where the drain on the pool of energy it directly matched by the ability that draws on that pool. Also, the mere fact that this pool of energy sticks around if not used and requires a specific method to refill it.

 

Now if you are asking for specific SFX that would need this, then that's not a fair question, to you. I couid take an hour and come up with SFX after SFX after SFX that would need the criteria mentioned. But that's not what you want either, so I can only conclude that you want examples from comics, movies, or shows where this mechanic would fit the SFX described. Sorry, I don't read comics, so I'm at a disadvantage, most of comic type movies I've seen use standard archetype powers. But even if I gave you example like Star Wars, since no one really knows how the mechanics of the force actually work, there's no way for me say it's applicable here, and yet there's no way anyone can say it's not applicable either.

 

So I'm left with only the game itself for examples. I can give Electrode, a character design to be played by me. He siphons electrical energy around him and uses that energy to power his Electrical Bolts etc...

 

When I built him, I ended up using combination of Adjustment Powers and an END Reserve. Guess what, the mechanics were just kludge of what I really wanted, and the GM had to house rule some tihngs to make work closer to what I wanted. I was never really satisfied with how it worked, and actually using it was cumbersome. Funny how I didn't think of this construct at the time when I trying to create that character. Oh well...

 

The other thread that got me thinking described pretty much the same thing except the SFX was different. SFX doesn't matter as long as you can get the mechanics to work behind what you envisioned the SFX to do.

 

I'm fairly sure that all this really won't make much of difference to you Dust Raven, since you think the Succor/END Reserve is good enough. And that's ok, because I don't care if you agree with me on this or not, I'm just asking for help with balancing and modifying it to be consistent and usable.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Using a VPP for a Mimic Pool is just one method of mimicing things' date=' and there aren't any rules that have to be waved for it to work. Adding in "gets powers from nowhere" is just making this Adjustment Reserve too powerful, if it isn't already.[/quote']

Ok, since you don't have 5th Edition Revised, I'm going to let you know that the concept of "Adding Something From Nothing" is not without precedent. In the Adjustment Powers section, there another exception, and an "Official" Advantage, that allows a character to add/remove "Adders" to/from the character or someone else. The GM is warned against allowing this due to possible balance problems, but it is there, officially.

 

And I might as well do this now for those who don't have 5th Edition Revised.

 

Adjustment Powers

 

BASIC EFFECTS AND GUIDLINES

One exception to the rules listed in this section.

Increasing Expendable Abilities

Special rules for Adjusting Stats (END, STUN, & BODY).

One exception to the rules listed in this section.

Maximum Effect

one exception to rules listed.

Adjusting Powers With Advantages/Adders

One exception to the rules listed in this section.

Hit Locations

Special rules.

The Source Of A Power Versus The Effects Of A Power

Special rules.

 

SPECIAL EFFECTS

Standard rules as you know them.

 

AFFECTING INCREMENTAL CHARACTERISTICS AND POWERS

Special rules.

 

REGAINING LOST POINTS; LOSING GAINED POINTS

Two exceptions to the rules listed in this section.

 

POWER FRAMEWORKS

The following are special rules specific to frameworks.

Adjustment Powers Bought In Power Frameworks

One exception to the rules listed in this section.

Postively Adjusting Power Frameworks

Where's Einstein when you need him!

Negatively Adjusting Power Framworks

Two exceptions to the rules listed in this section.

 

CHARACTERISTICS

The following have special rules.

Body

Comliness

Speed

Endurance

Stun

 

POWERS

Attack Powers

Standard rules.

Defense Powers

Special rules.

Movement Powers

Standard rules.

Characteristics

Special rules.

Duplication

Clarification.

Flash

Clarification.

 

ADVANTAGES AND ADDERS

The following have clarifications.

Area Of Effect, Explosion

Special rules.

One exception to the rules listed in this section.

Can Apply (Remove) Adders

Continuous

Cumulative

Delayed Return Rate

Trigger

Special rules.

Variable Effect

Special rules.

Variable Effect -- Multiple Special Effects

Special rules.

 

LIMITATIONS

Clarification follow.

Charges

Special rules.

Gradual Effect

Special rules.

Increased Return Rate

Special rules.

Limited Special Effect

One Use At A Time

Only Restores To Starting Values

Special rules.

Self Only

 

DISADVANTAGES

Normal Characteristic Maxima

Special rules.

 

And this doesn't cover any additional rules that might be included in the powers themselves. This is the general overview of the rules.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Funny you should ask that...

 

I was thinking of different ways this mechanic could be applied and realized that it might make Mimic SFX much easier to handle.

 

Mimics SFX are near impossible to handle with just Adjustment Powers and a I've heard numerous complaints about using a VPP being too cumbersome.

 

You'd have to House Rule away one rule in the Hero 5th Edition Revised in order to make it work, but based on the posts so far, it seems it's common place to do so.

 

House Rule: Mimic Advantage +2, Adjustment Reserve can be used to mimic another character's power (even if said power doesn't exist in the characters own powers).

 

Just throwing out numbers for balance, but the mechanic I think is sound. Could be much more straight forward way to handle a Rogue-like character.

 

- Christopher Mullins

I think, as discussed elsewhere, that a "Bestow" Adjustment Power really needs to be created or handled as a modification to Aid. It makes no sense that we have Transformation and Aid and all that with no ability to create a power in a more straightforward fashion (to my knowledge, to do it on someone else requires Transformation while doing so for oneself requires VPP).

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

I think' date=' as discussed elsewhere, that a "Bestow" Adjustment Power really needs to be created or handled as a modification to Aid. It makes no sense that we have Transformation and Aid and all that with no ability to create a power in a more straightforward fashion (to my knowledge, to do it on someone else requires Transformation while doing so for oneself requires VPP).[/quote']

 

Well, there's always UBO...

[Dust Raven]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Christopher,

 

I think we're both getting a bit too worked up over thing. You're just trying to make it work, and I'm just trying to help. I'm sorry if I really haven't been helping so much as poking holes. I'll blame my recent cold.

 

I have gotten a bit lost on why this is being created in the first place. I remember the other character character from the other thead that inspired it. I guess we just disagree on what is kludgy. You think handwaving a rule you don't link for an Adjustment Power is kludgy; I think creating an entirely new Power with it's own set of rules and rules exceptions is kludgy. Maybe I'm not the best to help you with this because I really don't think it'll work or is necessary to enhance the game or anyone's game play. That's just my opinion though. Also because you're basing your need for this Power and the rules for it on rules I haven't read, which kinda makes me more than unqualified.

[zornwil]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Well' date=' there's always UBO...[/quote']

Good catch. I didn't mean there weren't other ways. Just that Transform (for adding an ability) and VPP seem to be the "regular" answers to this - particularly as the rules for adding powers are quite detailed now under Transform. BTW, I've even used those rules, as I wanted to ensure I understood how a particular Megascale mutation Transform would work mechanically, even though it was largely a plot device/"GM power" anyway.

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Christopher,

 

I think we're both getting a bit too worked up over thing. You're just trying to make it work, and I'm just trying to help. I'm sorry if I really haven't been helping so much as poking holes. I'll blame my recent cold.

 

I have gotten a bit lost on why this is being created in the first place. I remember the other character character from the other thead that inspired it. I guess we just disagree on what is kludgy. You think handwaving a rule you don't like for an Adjustment Power is kludgy; I think creating an entirely new Power with it's own set of rules and rules exceptions is kludgy. Maybe I'm not the best to help you with this because I really don't think it'll work or is necessary to enhance the game or anyone's game play. That's just my opinion though. Also because you're basing your need for this Power and the rules for it on rules I haven't read, which kinda makes me more than unqualified.

Dust Raven, relax, I'm not worked up. When I see the same argument being used over and over again, I just sigh, and repeat myself again. Or try to come up with some way better to explain myself. (8^D)

Please don't take that as making me angry or anything.

 

You don't have to agree with what I'm doing. I never expected anyone to agree with this. The fact that Zornwil does is a pleasant change from the norm.

 

I'm fairly sure that Hyper-man doesn't agree with me and will never use this construct, but he did run some numbers for me, and for that, I'm grateful. It gives me a better perspective on what might be too undercosted or too overbalanced.

 

However, there is one thing I'd like to clarify that you've misunderstood about my stance. If people want to hand wave rules, great, I don't have a problem with it. If they want to create thier own powers/systems/whatever, great, I don't have a problem with it. But when someone is willing to hand-wave away current rules, and then has a problem with my construct because it isn't using the existing rules, then I'm going view that as being somewhat hyprocritical and inconsistent from a logic point of view. It just doesn't make any sense. Especially since creating new mechanics is part of the existing rules. I just don't understand that.

 

Anyway, no hard feelings on my part, just sorry if I've aggravated or frustrated you. (8^D)

 

And just so you know, I go through this every single time I suggest a new construct. So I'm pretty used to it now. (8^D)

 

Hyper-man thinks it's too overpriced, you think it's too overbalanced, why?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: New Power: Adjustment Reserve

 

Good catch. I didn't mean there weren't other ways. Just that Transform (for adding an ability) and VPP seem to be the "regular" answers to this - particularly as the rules for adding powers are quite detailed now under Transform. BTW' date=' I've even used those rules, as I wanted to ensure I understood how a particular Megascale mutation Transform would work mechanically, even though it was largely a plot device/"GM power" anyway.[/quote']

Yep, I knew I shouldn't have mentioned. I said it the AR "might" or "could" be used that way. I never meant it "should" be used that way. Forget I mentioned it.

 

I would just hand-wave the rule that said that Adjustment Powers can't be used to add powers. Simpler and easier to do that, unless you want some additional mechanic that the current Adjustment Powers don't possess.

 

See! I don't have problem with hand-waving rules... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins