Stat Inflation

[OddHat]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Maybe I am not sure how to explain my city guard post. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking that the city guard should be a challenge for my players.

 

I am not having a problem challenging my players. I have a lot of adventures to go through.

 

The question of whether the city guard should be a serous challenge for your players has a lot to do with play style, and with what sub-genre you're trying to simulate. In a "Druss the Legend" campaign (semi-realistic low fantasy), the characters are very unlikely to come into direct conflict with the city guard, and if they do, they're likely to need to flee. The characters will be built on far more points than the guards, but the guards will have greater numbers, the hit location charts will be in effect, no one is going to be strutting around in full plate armor in town, crossbows will be in use, etc. A young Druss may be a match for a half dozen or more guards face to face, but nothing is proteting him from a crossbow bolt in the back. In that kind of a campaign, tactics mean more than point totals.

 

In a D&D style high fantasy campaign, you might want to let your characters be completely immune to anything less than another party of adventurers of similar or higher level. Whatever way that you and your players want to handle it is "right".

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Similar here (although I'm 185 = 6'1").

 

But I would point out, that using the weapon was not that tiring - using a weapon AND wearing armour AND wielding a shield (or possibly ESPECIALLY the shield) is very tiring.

 

Waving an arm around holding a sword is not difficult. If that arm is covered with a kilogram or more of metal armour (ie mail), or the joints aren't fully articulated and you are constantly encountering the limits of your dexterity (ie plate) is a different matter.

 

Shields are worse, as you tend to keep them in constant position, away from you body (if you want them to be effective) - you can rest your weapon on your shield, but not vice versa.

 

Yeah...It took me a while to get used to my 25 pound, short sleeved knee length mail hauberk (1/4" I.D. 4 in 1),heavy leather & chain gorget and my plate gauntlets. And I still dislike fighting with a shield... mostly because I'm used to the reach and coverage I can maintain with a longer weapon. I am, however, very skilled in blocking with gauntlets. Little trick I discovered early on... the articulation of my gauntlets was such that I could flex my wrist back a bit and lock my lames in place, giving me a nice rigid bladetrap on the back of my hand... My gauntlets, alas, were in the car when it got ripped off, so I don't have the evidence to show anymore... I got used to the occasional question about why my left gauntlet was so beat up along the spine compared to my right. Well...the other reason I dislike sheilds is because, for theatrical reasons, I used a targe. The long adjustable strap that I used to sling it across my back for marching worked great crossbody to help support the sheild, but no matter what you do, a 20" round sheild leaves your off side open from about the knee down. As this is exactly where my mail stopped, I stopped fighting with it... I wear tough high boots, but even so, getting hit in the shins with a blunt steel blade HURTS.

 

EDIT: I stopped fighting in plate when I broke a strap on my right leg and had the whole leg slip down enough that my kneecap caught in the lames above the knee cop when my opponent slammed into me. That hurt WAY more than getting hit. Dropped me like a poleaxed steer. Feild plate... great protection, lousy mobility. One of the things I like about HERO is that really good armor has really good penalties... its quite true.

[Curufea]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

And I still dislike fighting with a shield... mostly because I'm used to the reach and coverage I can maintain with a longer weapon. I am' date=' however, very skilled in blocking with gauntlets. [/quote']

 

The importance of a shield can be easily realised if you do mass combat (ie lines vs lines) or if you face a spear. Especially a spear or polearm in a mass - "Where'd that hit come from?"

 

One of the things I like about HERO is that really good armor has really good penalties... its quite true.

 

Except for my pet peeve - mail should way more than plate. A better DEF (or higher AP) shouldn't mean a heavier armour. But you can house rule around that.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

The importance of a shield can be easily realised if you do mass combat (ie lines vs lines) or if you face a spear. Especially a spear or polearm in a mass - "Where'd that hit come from?"

Actually, the main times I used my bardiche was when we did "boars head" wedge formation charges against a formation of pike and bill hooks. Takes a LOT of practice, tho, and you REALLY have to be comfortable with an axe. And doing it without armor is suicide. I recomend a helmet as well. Galloglas were required by contract to have a helmet, but not docked pay if they were lacking... It was assumed that your decreased lifespan was sufficent penalty.

 

 

Except for my pet peeve - mail should way more than plate. A better DEF (or higher AP) shouldn't mean a heavier armour. But you can house rule around that.

I agree. This is an almost universal problem in RPG's tho.

That and the ubiqutous "My Ranger wears chain mail because its sneaky" crap

[arcady]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I HATE arbitrary limits so I don't want to just say' date=' no you can't have a 20 STR. So what are some other ways to prevent this from happening in the future.[/quote']Beat the -BLEEP- out them with characters that are themed with skills and skill levels but moderate stats, then pass out the character sheets of your thugs.

 

In a DnD game we learned to fear goblins with a few rogue levels - you can pull that trick in Fantasy Hero with the 'sneak attack' talent - Can't recall it's actual name, but its there.

 

It's also a lot of fun to built someone who can do ultra sweep manuevers with a polearm.

 

Or a low strength skill-leveled out archer.

 

Or just -flash- them with a low key mage, and then run in with the sneak attack goblins...

 

STR is not the only path to obscene min-maxing in Hero, and if you want to break them out of it, just make a party of NPCs that uses multiple other methods, none of which are based on STR.

 

Of course, they'll still min-max, but at least they might start doing it with variety.

[Foxx!]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

 

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.

I agree.

 

I don't use CHAR limits and everything is ok. Players usually spend points on Skills, Talents, etc. The only CHAR rule I use is that naturally a CHAR can be raised only 1 value each session, unless you have a special condition: a wish, etc.

 

Cheers!

[Agemegos]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

STR is not the only path to obscene min-maxing in Hero' date=' and if you want to break them out of it, just make a party of NPCs that uses multiple other methods, none of which are based on STR.[/quote']

 

True, but the thing is that STR 20 is hardly obscene min-maxing when you have a 150-point character to build. STR 20 is as cheap as chips, and just about any concept works better with STR 20.

 

What does a 350-point brick typically spend on STR? 50 points? 60 points? And he has multiple defenses to buy as well. These characters are spending a much lower proportion of their points on STR.

 

You really can't blame players. The rules make STR good and cheap. They give you every reason to buy it an non to refrain. Given 150 points to spend, building a fighting character without STR 20 is like going to work without pants.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

This is one thing that my STR 20 players haven't done. I am going to abuse them with STR 15 NPC's.

 

This is how I explain balance to my players.

 

"In this campaign, your average human is going to have an 8-10 str. Average heroes will have 13-15. Exceptionally strong heroes might have an 18. Now, what you're all starting here is a cold war. If you all want to go up to 20 Str then I just make my villains accordingly. Whereas they were Str 10 before with your 13s now they'll be 15-18 to your 20s. Would you rather spend the points elsewhere or start this vicious cycle?"

 

They invariably go for lower points. It's also important to ask why they all want 20 strengths and then try to come with a middle ground.

"Well, I want to do more damage with my broadsword."

"OK, how about taking combat levels and using them to increse your damage? Maybe your character has done extensive training on finding kill areas and chinks in armor?"

 

There are so many ways to achieve powers, don't be afraid to set up some limits and work with the characters to give them the characters they want to play.

[Ner0Sputnik]

Re: Yet more to think about

 

Third' date=' why do you want your average City Guard to be a match for your PCs? As someone else mentioned, this seems rather unheroic. If the City Guard are on par with the PCs why aren't [i']they[/i] tackling the missions the PCs are being sent on?

 

This is an excellent point. My players and I all agree that one on one the guard should be far less impressive and easy to defeat. Their strength should be their numbers and their teamwork. So, if you have your PC group of 3 run into 5 guards they should be able to overpower them... as long as none of them gets to his horn to call for backup.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

And your players want to play heroes' date=' so they want to wield common weapons [i']well[/i]. So naturally they buy strength.

 

Fantasy HERO has a bit of a problem jammed down in the lower end of a representation scale meant for Spiderman, the Hulk, and Superman. There are only five values for strength in the 'normal' range that are functionally different from one another. For heroic characters, HERO is a very low resolution character representation system.

 

Stength is very important (especially with HERO's ridiculously high strength minima in force). You can't expect people not to buy it at the price. If you won't raise the price, and won't bring in rationing, I am afraid that you are snookered.

 

The only out I can suggest is to raise the maximum normal strength to 25 or even 30. Otherwise you are going to have to tell you players to adapt tothe truth: STR is nothing very much in HERO System, it is cheap and effective and every combat character has it. If they want to characterise themelves as big strong guys, they will have to shell out for three or five points at double cost.

 

Well I think some of the problem isn't just with Hero, 1ed AD&D Str meant almost _nothing_ unless you had 8- or 15+ on a typically 3-4d6 bell curve, something like 60+% of rolls weren't spectacular.

Heck most Stats in 1st and 2nd AD&D meant little unless they were supernormal.

And yes it did lead to a wide swath of characters (and items) with supernormal stats

 

having said that I have a mageish character with 13 Str and 17 Dex, go from 150 points to 200ish(difficult keeping track at the moment) and only ever spend 3 points anywhere on stats to take the 17 Dex to 18, only for the Dex Skill benefits.

IMNSHO Once the Stats are "perfected" for the character most people leave well enough alone and go for other things to buy....

 

 

 

Heck just ask the guys to have one have 20 Str, and the rest have 18, the difference is pretty minimal.

 

Or even ask the Strong brick of the group go with 23 STR, whilist asking everyone else to go for a 20 Max.

 

23 Str however is not really worth it, but don't trell them I said that....

 

and actually Martial Arts with a low dex and high CSL's is a frightning thing.... (trade 20 dex for 11 dex and 9 CSL's w/ Martial Arts....)

[Krieghandt]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

One system I havent seen listed is the one I use. Characters cant always afford the stats they need at creation, so they suffer from "battle wounds" (str and con loss) or such, until they can buy up their stats, and find the needed healer/trainer to help them. After they hit their concept in a stat, I charge +1 pt for each increase, accumaltive. ie, dex 15 -16 is 4 pts, 16 - 17 is 5 pts, and I double the total cost at 20+. You can expect some increase in your players stats, but your academy mage wont be passing Conan in the str department any time soon. Nor will you need to be "the bad guy"; if your mage wants to be as strong as Ahnold, he'll pay through the nose to do it.

Krieghandt