Stat Inflation

[Herolover]

Hello all.

 

I am running a Fantasy Campaign with the characters purchased on 75+75 points. I have 3-5 players depending upon what all is going on.

 

My problem is that I am running into stat inflation where everyone wants a 20 STR. Now, I admit that the party is fighter heavy (I don't have a problem with this part). However, I have the brick of the group that has a 20 STR, the quick agile fighter has a 20 STR, and now I am going to have another player with a 20 STR.

 

I HATE arbitrary limits so I don't want to just say, no you can't have a 20 STR. So what are some other ways to prevent this from happening in the future.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

The more I think about it, the more I want to import Amber "ranks" into HERO games. Once someone's "schtick" is determined, no one can get as good or better at it than them.

 

Big Strong Fighter w/20 Str: Until he buys Str up, best anyone else can have is 19.

 

Super dexy thief w/20 Dex: Until he buys Dex up, best anyone else can have is 19.

 

Etc. It's arbitrary, but linked to the other PC's.

 

Could also say "all stat increases cost triple" or somesuch.

[Vondy]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I would tell them they have to build their character to concept and that you will enforce concept. Then, require each character to have their own concept with their own schtick. You might also adjust the stat benchmarks for your campaign.

 

Just an example:

 

6-10: Average

11-13: Skilled

14-18: Competent

19-20: Heroic

21+: Legendary!

 

In such a case you could tell players they can only have 1 or 2 stats in the "Heroic" range (just as an example), and require they fit the concept. You could just as easily let them all march up to twenty, but only allow one stat to reach into the legendary range. Where you place the benchmarks, and the limits, is dependent on the style of play and genre you are trying to simulate.

[nelay]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I tried control stats somewhat by having a large minium number of non-combat related skills. This helped round out the characters a bit, but I still saw an awful lot of 20 STR mages and clerics.

For the last campaign I went a step further and reduced the starting points to 25 base + 50 disadvs. Now each character pretty much has 1 or 2 decent stats and nobody is buying a stat just to use points. I give decently generous XP but I dont let them randomly buy up stats without some sort of in story explaination.

[Nevenall]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I tried control stats somewhat by having a large minium number of non-combat related skills. This helped round out the characters a bit, but I still saw an awful lot of 20 STR mages and clerics.

For the last campaign I went a step further and reduced the starting points to 25 base + 50 disadvs. Now each character pretty much has 1 or 2 decent stats and nobody is buying a stat just to use points. I give decently generous XP but I dont let them randomly buy up stats without some sort of in story explaination.

This has worked for me too.

[OddHat]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Bring a live rattlesnake (in an aquarium), a box of matches, and a bottle of rum to your next gaming session. At the start of the session, take a swig of rum, and then (using the matches and as much of the rum as you declined to swallow) spray liquid fire over the gaming table. Now, ask your players who wants to be the first to dangle his private parts in the aquarium.

 

None of them will ever ask for another 20 STR character again.

[Rick]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I'm the GM, erol flyn doesn't get to have a 20str, Conan does get to have a 23str...PERIOD. Arguing gets you the look, continue to argue and you get the hook (rhym not intended, but all the same fun).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Thus far I've been blessed with regular players that build their characters to concept. Though, oftentimes the concepts themselves are overpowered, but they stick to them!

 

Though I like the method of adjusting the "benchmarks" then telling everyone only 1 or 2 of their stats should be on the "Herioc" level and only 1 at the "Legendary" level (and it must be the stat that is most important for the characters concept, of course)

[OddHat]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Thus far I've been blessed with regular players that build their characters to concept. Though, oftentimes the concepts themselves are overpowered, but they stick to them!

 

Though I like the method of adjusting the "benchmarks" then telling everyone only 1 or 2 of their stats should be on the "Herioc" level and only 1 at the "Legendary" level (and it must be the stat that is most important for the characters concept, of course)

 

Yup. This is a good method, espescially if you play up Character A's "Legendary Speed", character B's "Legendary Strength", etc, out of combat.

[Storn]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I charge 2 pts for STR (in HD I create Generic/Custom Power and charge the same amount of points the STR is.).

 

I also only give 2 xp per adventure.

 

I am throwing away STR mins to weild weapons. It is stupid that an atheltic man (STR 10) cannot wield a 2 handed sword. Because it suggests that you have to benchpress 400 and be HUGE to weild such a weapon. Not every Swiss Mercenary who weilded a 2 handed sword was an 18 STR. The str mins are stoopid, IMO, as they are defined. So, now you can be a 13 STR warrior and have a two handed battle axe or sword... sure, its going to be a bit more taxing than Ahrnald...but it can be done.

 

Instead, STR Mins for every 5 pts under, you expend 1 END more for using the weapon. And of course, for every 5 pts over, you get a +1 DC.

 

And I have good players who will not buy strength up if it doesn't meet character concept.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

 

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.

 

If it really really really bothers you, consider making the cost of STR = 2 points. It immediately stops being so efficient to buy you're a fool not to buy as much as you can from a mathematical perspective. If it's not just STR, but all key stats that you dont like to see float up to 20's, set the NCM to 15 for the camapaign. This singlehandedly makes it inefficient to buy everything up to 20 (although at 1pt per STR, you still basically break even if you push to 20 via figureds).

[OddHat]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Personally, I dont worry about it. Whats the point of enticing people to play a game system that lets you model your character as you please within point limits and campaign appropriatness, only to turn around and say "no, you cant have a 20 STR (or whatever) -- Billy already has that"?

 

I encourage players not to step on each other's shticks too much, but there are so many ways to build things in the HERO System that two characters having similar stats does not necessarily mean they are similar characters by any means.

 

If it really really really bothers you, consider making the cost of STR = 2 points. It immediately stops being so efficient to buy you're a fool not to buy as much as you can from a mathematical perspective. If it's not just STR, but all key stats that you dont like to see float up to 20's, set the NCM to 15 for the camapaign. This singlehandedly makes it inefficient to buy everything up to 20 (although at 1pt per STR, you still basically break even if you push to 20 via figureds).

 

Hey, KS. Nice to see you around.

[Guest joen00b]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I think my big beef is everyone and their cousin wanting to learn martial arts. One guy in the group can do a flying side kick knocking the bad guy through a brick wall and all of a sudden the paladins and thieves and mages want to be chop sockying all over his genre. I've seen it happen a hundred times, if I've seen it once. Guaranteed there is always at least 1 person in the group that wants to accenuate their skills with Martial Arts... nevermind the background story of how this guy studied his whole life to be able to do martial arts, now this one guy wants to be able to do them too.

 

Am I the only one aggravated by this?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Nah, that just means Martial Arts are unbalanced.

[Storn]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

My fix for martial arts?

 

You can't apply it to weapon damage. It is only empty hand techniques. Martial Art Techniques applied to weapons makes armor obsolete.. which is fine for some fantasy campaigns for feel... but not mine.

 

And empty hand technique vs. a knife/dagger/short sword, -1 OCV

vs. Longsword, medium length weapon: -2

vs. spear or polearm: :-3

 

{of course, if you DO get inside of the weapon length, then its the other guy who has the OCV penalties.}

[Herolover]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Thanks for all the replies.

 

Many of the replies I have seen are along of the lines, "Well, tell them they can't because you say so." This is exactly the reply I am not wanting to give my players.

 

I really don't want to change the cost of STR, but I may have to.

 

I do like the idea of changing the point at which characters start paying double. This I will have to look into.

[Herolover]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Storn.

I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

 

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

 

You are correct the average merc doen't have an 18 STR. So how come they can wield the sword so good? Combat Manuevers and Combat Skill Levels.

 

This is one thing that my STR 20 players haven't done. I am going to abuse them with STR 15 NPC's.

 

The way I see it my STR 20 guys have the natural talent, but not the actual knowledge and know how. They are going to find this out the next combat

[Ki-rin]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

I try to mimic the way things work ITRW. So after adulthood, your characteristics tend not to be very changable. OTOH, skill improvement is much easier.

 

So I have each player define what characteristics and skills (and to what levels) are "in concept" for their character(s) at creation time.

 

Then I make "in concept" skills 1/2 the price of standard (up to a limit based on starting value, characteristics, and character concept). Outside those bounds, skill cost either normal or 2x depending on just how far outside those bounds they are.

 

"In concept" characteristics have a higher NCM than out-of-concept ones, and "out of concept" characteristics can have -lower- NCM than "max human" depending on concept. Characteristics outside the NCM for the character concept cost 2x or even 4x for values +way+ outside the NCM.

 

This models the way the RW works: once you are an adult, your characteristics are very hard to change and nigh unto impossible past some point. OTOH, skills are relatively easy to develop and skills you have a knack for or concentration in are comparatively very easy to develop. I also allow characteristics to go up if you have trained enough up enough skills based on that characteristic for it to have been cheaper to buy the characteristic (the CP for the rise come out of the ones you spent on skills of course. TANSTAAFL.)

 

So the small, quick, sneaky thief does not end up looking like the hulking, super strong fighter. And everyone gets an interesting development path.

[Outsider]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

An option that has not been suggested :

 

Just accept that 20 isnt any sort of 'maximum', but just a waypoint on the point cost scale and the place where a 'normal man' can get and not look un-normal (ie unusually large or bulky) if he works out and is in top shape. Truly large men, either by stature, bulk, or both, can then exceed the 20 mark, though they have to pay double to do so. You might make them pay redouble after 30 too.

 

Go by point costs to determine what 'legendary' is, not by stat value. If 30 points in a stat is 'Heroic schtick' and 48 is 'Legendary schtick' (based on 20 or 23 dex) then

 

30 Strength (10 points to 20, then 20 more (double cost) to 30) is how strong a 'strong schtick' hero is (Conan)

~40 Strength (or ~35, if you redouble at 30) is how strong a 'legendarily strong schtick' hero is (Hercules)

 

If you're worried about how much this makes your characters able to lift/move, then just change the lifting table to be linear instead of geometric, unless the added "strength" is bought via a growth special effect. (ie 30 str man sized Conan can lift 300kg, but 30 str ogre sized (2 levels growth sized) Og can lift 800 Kg (ie 20 str linear, then 10 more geometric)

[Darkness]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Storn.

I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

 

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

 

You are correct the average merc doen't have an 18 STR. So how come they can wield the sword so good? Combat Manuevers and Combat Skill Levels.

Also an option for such characters: +STR; Only To Meet Min STR Of [swords or whatever].

[Storn]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Storn.

I like the STR Min on weapons. They represent the fact that you have to have a certain level of physical ability to weild a weapon WELL. It isn't saying that the average guy (STR 10) can't wield a great sword, but it is saying that avererage guy can't weild a great sword WELL.

 

You do know that if you use two hands to weild a one handed weapon the STR MIN is reduced right?

 

:

 

yes, I know about 2 hands.

 

But 10 is ATHLETIC. Not wimpy. Not average... atheletic. I don't care how you slice it, an athletic person's strength should be good enough to weild 90% of HtH weapons. Melee combat is NOT about pure strength. It is about training, it is about hips and leverage and knowing what motions work with what weapons. And these things are picked up pretty damn fast. 10 minutes with a two handed sword and you KNOW you aren't going to be using it like a 2 handed axe. I've wielded both.

 

Being excellent with said weapons is represented abstractly by OCV levels. And really represents not only talent, but training.

 

And I am taking STR into account. Those w/ high strength get a break on END cost. Those w/o high strength use up more of their END. AND THAT! is what melee combat is all about.... who doesn't block and who has steam left to launch a decent attack.

 

But I think the -OCV costs are waaay too stiff... and i think the STR Mins are a really a left over from wargames and make very little sense in the context of what strengths of fighting men are, both now and in times past. Remember, some of these dudes where small guys, 5'5" and they would kick our asses in HtH with weapons we think they could never weild based on that we can out bench press them. But yet here they are using longhandled axes with one arm... suggesting that EVERY goth was a STR 13? That is ridiculous... there diet is no where near what our's is. Yet, there they are, using longhandled axes one handed...

[Storn]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Also an option for such characters: +STR; Only To Meet Min STR Of [swords or whatever].

 

Like STR isn't already too cheap...

 

not a solution in my book.

[sinanju]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

The more I think about it, the more I want to import Amber "ranks" into HERO games. Once someone's "schtick" is determined, no one can get as good or better at it than them.

 

Big Strong Fighter w/20 Str: Until he buys Str up, best anyone else can have is 19.

 

Super dexy thief w/20 Dex: Until he buys Dex up, best anyone else can have is 19.

 

Etc. It's arbitrary, but linked to the other PC's.

 

Could also say "all stat increases cost triple" or somesuch.

 

Shazbat! I was going to suggest the same thing. Great minds think alike.

 

I'd go one farther, though, and institute Amber-style AUCTIONS for stat rank. For those who don't know, the Amber system has four stats: Strength, Endurance, Psyche and Warfare. Players get a fixed number of points to spend and then they have to bid on each stat. Once you've bid, the points can't be taken back--win or lose, that's what you pay for your rank (whether you're first, second, third or whatever).

 

High bidder is ranked first in that stat. Nobody else, even someone who paid only 1 point less can hope to beat you in a contest based on that stat. Second highest always beats 3rd ranked and so on. If you don't want to bid, you don't have to--simply by virtue of being a PC, you're rated as "Amber level" in all stats, so you're superior to someone of Chaos rank, who is better than normal human, etc. Which leaves you with that many more points left over to spend on other traits and powers.

 

If all your PCs want to be the strongest guy on the block, decide how strong you're willing to let that guy be--and then hold an auction. See if they're _really_ willing to spend a boatload of points on Strength just for the privilege. The winning bidder gets to have STR 20 (or 23 or whatever you've decided), with the others getting lower STR scores you've established. See if they're really willing to get into a bidding war and spend 20 or 30 points or more for it.

 

Or maybe they'll settle for a STR of 15 (or whatever you decide they can buy at regular cost). Ditto for DEX or any other attribute they're obsessing over.

[Phil]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Another way to avoid it is to introduce scaled costing for spending experience, e.g. making CHARs above 15 cost double, and CHARs above the NCM cost treble, or something similar.

[Darkness]

Re: Stat Inflation

 

Like STR isn't already too cheap...

You said you increased the cost of STR in your campaign, so it shouldn't be too cheap for you any more...?

 

If someone else doesn't do that even though STR is too cheap for them, well yeah - of course that's a problem with STR, rather than with applying Limitations to it.