I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

[Rick]

For my StarWars conversions, in another thread,http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30536, I'm running inot a little issue. In modeling the Sith's ability to hide their presence I decided invisibility is the right choose, for obovious reasons. It'll be simply that they'll make their force attuned nature invisible.

 

Force Attuned comes with a Distincive feature (convieniently enough) called force attuned. This feature can only be sensed through a special sense, "Detect force". If I make the Distinct feature non-disguiseable, would that imply that you couldn't make it invisible, or does the power over ride the disad. Or should I simply say that it's disguisable with MAJOR effort....

 

Thoughts????

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Sounds like you're going the right route to me.

 

Invisibility trumps distinctive features, IMO. "Face is icky lump of rotten hamburger and has 2' spikes all over body" would normally be "non-concealable", but if he's invisible, no one would notice.

 

Especially as the force-attunement is a disad ALL force-users have, I'd say it's appropriate as a disad. The Sith have to learn how to conceal it, right? It would be conceivable to have a rookie Sith that could be detected?

[Wanderer]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Regarding Distinctive Features and disguise powers (Invisibility, Shape Shift):

 

1) if the power is able to conceal the DF while in function, then the DF should be treated as Concealable (maybe with major effort if the power is heavily limited and cannot be used often). This is generally the case for "power side effects" DF that affect the normal senses (green skin, glowing aura, odd eyes, etc.). Otherwise, the disguise power is useless.

 

2) If the power does not affect the DF, then treat it as normal. This is typically the case with the "exotic" DF that come as a side effect of powers (energy signature, mystic aura, mutant, psi, evil/divine aura). Since they are generally detected by unsual senses (Detects) only, which are restricted to other supers, mystics, magical objects, and super-tech, this is generally fine. The main purpose of the disguise power (concealing the character from usual senses and mundanes) is preserved. In special cases (generally for devious characters whose shtick is to disguise even from other supers or mystics, such as our beloved friend Sidious/Palpatine) it may even work for the "power signature" DF. In that case, treat as Concealable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Wanderer has pretty much covered it. However might I add that a disadvantage that doesn't limit you is not worth points? If you have an evil aura that you can basically switch off and keep off at will then it is not worth points.

 

Your ability to disguise your nature should be subject to limitations which mean that either it is not always reliable OR there is a cost (probably END) to use it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

If they their DF is concealed 100% all the time, I'd say they have just bought it off. If they want to buy a Power to conceal it, they have to buy it off part-way (just consider it part of the cost of the Power, if you like). That is actually exactly the way I have handled this ability myself.

 

BTW, it is an aside, but I don't think this is specific to the Sith; Yoda and Obi-Wan hide their presence pretty effectively, since they are still alive at the beginning of A New Hope. Actually, I don't believe particular Force powers are specific to the Dark Side at all, as D20 Star Wars (and maybe the other system before it--never really went through it) would have you believe. Yoda uses Force Lightning in Phantom Menace, and Luke chokes the guards at Jabba's Palace enough to get them out of the way in Return of the Jedi (some people insist this is because he was turning to the Dark Side at this point, but I don't buy it). I think it is more the emotion and intent behind the use of the powers that matters. I have been thinking about if and how to handle this mechanically. It is a tricky one.

[Wanderer]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Wanderer has pretty much covered it. However might I add that a disadvantage that doesn't limit you is not worth points? If you have an evil aura that you can basically switch off and keep off at will then it is not worth points.

 

Your ability to disguise your nature should be subject to limitations which mean that either it is not always reliable OR there is a cost (probably END) to use it.

 

There is a third possibility: the nature of the power per se might make inconvenient to use it all the time to hide the DF. I.e. if the Dark Sith Lord or Demonic Superbeing has to stay invisible or shapeshifted as a puny unassuming mundane to cover their evil aura, then it's quite probable they'll spend a signficant chunk of their time undisguised (in combat, when they have to address followers and look intimidating, etc.)

 

If they their DF is concealed 100% all the time' date=' I'd say they have just bought it off. If they want to buy a Power to conceal it, they have to buy it off part-way (just consider it part of the cost of the Power, if you like). [/quote']

 

In other words, they'll have to buy their Distinctive Feature as Concealable, just like I said

[Rick]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

So if you have a 3 foot horn coming out of your head, ussually a non-concealable disad,and you had Invisibility, it would be a concealable with major effort disad? I can buy that, it's just got me thinking that's all.

 

As to whether or not it's a sith only power, well that's for another thread.

[Rick]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

I have to admit though, the sith example is different context then the Horned character.

 

What if you bought the Invisibilty some time after creating the or buying the power???

[Supreme]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

If someone has the ability to conceal their distinctive feature, then the feature is concealable. Turning yourself completely invisible is not the same thing. Making your force attunement invisible means that you can now move amongst the Jedi unnoticed. You can talk to them and ask them for seemingly innocuous favors. Someone who is completely invisible is someone who has completely removed themselves from all interaction, like Desolidification. You should also consider whether or not the invisibility is constant, persistent, 0 END, etc.

[Rick]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

You will note, Supreme, that I realized and mentioned that in my last post. Still what happens if the power to conceal is developed after the inception of the character, GM judgement I suppose. I'd probably make the PC buy down the disad.

[Greatwyrm]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

I'd probably make the PC buy down the disad.

 

Seems easier than fiddling with Invisibiblity.

[Dust Raven]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

For this specific case, I'd probably rule that the Disad is reduced from Non Concealable to Concealable with Effort or Easily Concealable (depending on the ease of use of the Invisibility). The Invisibility is specifically designed to hide the DF, so the DF is affected.

 

An alternate route is to forget buying Invisibility and just say that the DF is concealed if the character meets certain requirements (like not using his Powers or spending END) and buy it at the level appropriate to the method of concealment. I typically prefer this method over using a Power who's only purpose is to hide a DF. It reminds me of buying Extra Limbs (tenticles) on a character with PhysLim: No Arms and Legs.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

In other words' date=' they'll have to buy their Distinctive Feature as Concealable, just like I said [/quote']

Yes. I wasn't trying to contradict you. I was simply adding a little more detail, and the suggestion that the lack of the Disadvantage could be considered, "part of the Power."

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

I have to admit though' date=' the sith example is different context then the Horned character.[/quote']

Not really. The Sith's quality of being detectable is like a really, really big horn that is detectable with an unusual sense, rather than Sight and Touch.

 

What if you bought the Invisibilty some time after creating the or buying the power???

Who cares? Just consider the character to be a state machine; history doesn't have to matter.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

If someone has the ability to conceal their distinctive feature' date=' then the feature is concealable. Turning yourself completely invisible is not the same thing. Making your force attunement invisible means that you can now move amongst the Jedi unnoticed. You can talk to them and ask them for seemingly innocuous favors. Someone who is completely invisible is someone who has completely removed themselves from all interaction, like Desolidification. You should also consider whether or not the invisibility is constant, persistent, 0 END, etc.[/quote']

Hmm. You could always give the Invisibility a Fringe. Then you may not be able to quite walk amongst them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

For this specific case, I'd probably rule that the Disad is reduced from Non Concealable to Concealable with Effort or Easily Concealable (depending on the ease of use of the Invisibility). The Invisibility is specifically designed to hide the DF, so the DF is affected.

 

An alternate route is to forget buying Invisibility and just say that the DF is concealed if the character meets certain requirements (like not using his Powers or spending END) and buy it at the level appropriate to the method of concealment. I typically prefer this method over using a Power who's only purpose is to hide a DF. It reminds me of buying Extra Limbs (tenticles) on a character with PhysLim: No Arms and Legs.

How about adding a RSR to the Invisibility? Base it on Stealth, Concealment, Disguise, or a custom Power Skill. Maybe even forget the Invisibility as you say, and simply make it an application of such a suitable Skill.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Hrm.

 

Being able to go Invisible USUALLY does not affect the concealability of a DF. This is because someone you can hear but not see is simply distinctive in a new way.

 

In this case, however, a Jedi looking at the Sith does NOT see 'someone with no Force in them', but someone with normal force relations. ( I think).

 

As such, the appropriate power would be shapeshift... except you don't need a power.

 

Just buy it as concealable: "Pay 1 End/Phase" or some such. That way they can't keep it up indefinately (well, maybe they can, but it saps their energy,, so they have to remain relatively inactive), but they can keep it up when they need to.

[McCoy]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Seems to me that Force users could detect each other, Vader detected ObiWan aboard the Death Star in Star Wars. Vader detected Luke, and Luke detected Vader detecting him, in Return of the Jedi.

 

BUT, it did take Vader a while to track down Obi Wan. And Luke was trying to conceal himself from Vader. So I would say there is precident for "Invisibility to Detect Force." I would require it to be bought with lockout, cannot use any other Force powers while the invisibility is on.

 

And yes, I would require any character with Invisibility to Detect Force to buy down their DF: Force attuned down to Concealable with major effort.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Seems to me that Force users could detect each other' date=' Vader detected ObiWan aboard the Death Star in [i']Star Wars[/i]. Vader detected Luke, and Luke detected Vader detecting him, in Return of the Jedi.

 

BUT, it did take Vader a while to track down Obi Wan. And Luke was trying to conceal himself from Vader. So I would say there is precident for "Invisibility to Detect Force." I would require it to be bought with lockout, cannot use any other Force powers while the invisibility is on.

 

And yes, I would require any character with Invisibility to Detect Force to buy down their DF: Force attuned down to Concealable with major effort.

 

I don't think you'd need lockout. The Force Powers would still be visible to "Detect Force".

 

Incidently, the idea is that this is a power of the Sith - Vader wasn't sensed by Luke or Obi Wan, except when he searched for Luke over a huge distance (probably Mind Scan, a power visible to anyone with Mental Awareness; in the SWverse, that would be Jedi - we can probably write off Hoth as Luke not having developed it yet - he hadn't).

 

Obi Wan and Luke were probably hiding somewhat less well than a (trained) Sith could - I'm thinking they just managed to give him enough penalties to his roll, rather than outright concealing their nature.

[Dust Raven]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

How about adding a RSR to the Invisibility? Base it on Stealth' date=' Concealment, Disguise, or a custom Power Skill. Maybe even forget the Invisibility as you say, and simply make it an application of such a suitable Skill.[/quote']

 

For my "jedi" types I've written up for various Champions/Star-Hero campaigns, I've usually just allowed the character a Force Knowledge (the Power Skill, based on EGO) to conceal their DF: Very Strong With The Force (concealable with effort, noticed by special senses).

 

One could keep their strength with the force concealed for a number of Phases (in combat) or Minutes (out of combat) per point they made the roll by, so long as they did not use any of their Force Powers. Making such a roll was a 0 Phase Action.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I'm Looking for thoughts on Distinctive features and Invisibility.

 

Seems to me that Force users could detect each other' date=' Vader detected ObiWan aboard the Death Star in [i']Star Wars[/i]. Vader detected Luke, and Luke detected Vader detecting him, in Return of the Jedi.

 

BUT, it did take Vader a while to track down Obi Wan. And Luke was trying to conceal himself from Vader. So I would say there is precident for "Invisibility to Detect Force." I would require it to be bought with lockout, cannot use any other Force powers while the invisibility is on.

 

And yes, I would require any character with Invisibility to Detect Force to buy down their DF: Force attuned down to Concealable with major effort.

Vader detecting Obi-Wan seems to me to be an obvious indication that this is some kind of RSR or Skill roll; possibly an opposed one. Obi-Wan is obviously able to conceal himself, or he would have been exterminated along with all the other Jedi. I would guess that his ability to hide, combined with bonuses (or penalties for the searchers) due to his seclusion, is why he is still around in A New Hope.

 

I'm not sure either Luke or Vader are able to conceal their presence. Vader simply never felt the need, I'd guess, so even if he can, we wouldn't know of it. I suspect Luke simply detected him in Return of the Jedi and thought, "Oh man. If I can sense him, I'm sure he can sense me!" (an indication that he his not able to conceal his presence, or at least not able to do so very well).

 

I would have to guess that those Jedi who developed the ability to effectively conceal themselves would be those who had the need, meaning the Sith during the time of the Republic, and those Jedi with either the forsight or quick wit to develop the knack during the period that they were being hunted down and destroyed. Vader may or may not have needed to develop this skill (maybe we'll see in Episode Three).