Special Armor Piercing Q

[Guyon]

Say I have a character with a 40 Strength, who has a 5D6 Armor piercing sword.

How do you use the sword with his strength against a foe who had armor on? I am a little confused on how the damage will add up since only part of the attack is armor piecing?

[JmOz]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

This is how I DO IT, and I beleive is the "official" way

 

You first pro-rate str, in this case it would be 40/1.5=~27

 

This would add 5 DC (27/5=5.2)

 

15 DC (A 5d6 HKA) + 5 DC=20 DC=6.5d6 AP attack, which is Dr Destroyer level damage...

[MitchellS]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

The adding damage rules are just about the most confusing in the system. There should really just be one consistent rule for all damage as there was in 4E. Basically your character can do a 10d6 AP attack with the sword [this is assuming your 5d6 listed is normal damage and not killing damage]. The character can get as many diced for an advantaged HA as he has dice in the attack. So the sword does 5d6 AP and he can add 5d6 from his strength to equal 10d6 AP.

[MitchellS]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

This is how I DO IT, and I beleive is the "official" way

 

You first pro-rate str, in this case it would be 40/1.5=~27

 

This would add 5 DC (27/5=5.2)

 

15 DC (A 5d6 HKA) + 5 DC=20 DC=6.5d6 AP attack, which is Dr Destroyer level damage...

You only pro-rate strength for killing attacks. For HA you use the double rule. That's part of what makes it so confusing. You should just pro-rate for everything.

[MitchellS]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

The descriptions, and examples, are on page 407-408 in 5Er.

[JmOz]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

MitchellS, thanks for the save, I assumed that with a sword it would be a KA, but nothing really states that.

 

I agree with you on one simple set, but my recomendation is different:

 

Strait DC adding (as per the current HA rules), easier math. Only allow them to use str up to the unmodified value, even in champs, and it is all good

[Guyon]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I didn't realize there was a big difference in rules versions. We are using V4 rules. Does that change your answer?

[MitchellS]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

MitchellS, thanks for the save, I assumed that with a sword it would be a KA, but nothing really states that.

 

I agree with you on one simple set, but my recomendation is different:

 

Strait DC adding (as per the current HA rules), easier math. Only allow them to use str up to the unmodified value, even in champs, and it is all good

Yep, it could work that way too. I'd be happy either way as long as it were consistent.

[MitchellS]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I didn't realize there was a big difference in rules versions. We are using V4 rules. Does that change your answer?

In 4E you use the rules JmOz provided [pro-rated] both for HA and for KA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I agree with you on one simple set, but my recomendation is different:

 

Strait DC adding (as per the current HA rules), easier math. Only allow them to use str up to the unmodified value, even in champs, and it is all good

 

This just comes down to trading off simplicity and (perceived?) faiorness.

 

"Why should I pay 25 points to make my 10d6 energy blast AP if the Brick can get a 10d6 AP punch and only pay for AP on 5d6?"

 

Pro rating is more fair, but less simple.

 

Straight add is simpler, but less fair.

 

I do like the idea of capping the STR add at the level of the attack, unless the STR also has the advantage. It's not a lot beter if Brick can buy a Multipower of hand attacks, each 1d6 with an advantage, and get the ability to convert his whole STR to each advantage, even on a pro rated basis.

[Silbeg]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

This just comes down to trading off simplicity and (perceived?) faiorness.

 

"Why should I pay 25 points to make my 10d6 energy blast AP if the Brick can get a 10d6 AP punch and only pay for AP on 5d6?"

 

Pro rating is more fair, but less simple.

 

Straight add is simpler, but less fair.

 

I do like the idea of capping the STR add at the level of the attack, unless the STR also has the advantage. It's not a lot beter if Brick can buy a Multipower of hand attacks, each 1d6 with an advantage, and get the ability to convert his whole STR to each advantage, even on a pro rated basis.

 

I have to agree wholeheartedly!

 

While I understand the need to make certain things easier to calculate, I have to disagree with the system about this HA damage exception.

 

My gaming group has thought about house-ruling this that all damage is pro-rated, but we haven't done anything primarily because no one has tried to abuse the system.

 

I have a similar beef on DCs from martial arts (and based on recent rulings from Steve, Haymakers and pushes) as they add in straight DCs, rather than adjusted.

 

I think that HAs are far too efficient in the current system. I know that they have been difficult to design (the 5 active/die, with a mandatory 1/2 lim is better than the 3/die that BBB had)... they need to be cheaper than STR with "No Figured Characteristic", or have a comparatable advantage. Well, this would be that advantage, I guess.

 

BTW - if I was creating a PC with what would "obviously be a killing attack", I would more likely go the route of AP HAs.

 

So, rather than 2d6 HKA (4d6 w/ 30 STR), I would do 4d6 AP HA, (8d6 AP w/ 20 STR). Significantly more efficient, and more consistent on the damage (especially in a superheroic game, where resistent DEFs are reasonably high).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

This just comes down to trading off simplicity and (perceived?) faiorness.

 

"Why should I pay 25 points to make my 10d6 energy blast AP if the Brick can get a 10d6 AP punch and only pay for AP on 5d6?"

 

Pro rating is more fair, but less simple.

 

Straight add is simpler, but less fair.

 

I do like the idea of capping the STR add at the level of the attack, unless the STR also has the advantage. It's not a lot beter if Brick can buy a Multipower of hand attacks, each 1d6 with an advantage, and get the ability to convert his whole STR to each advantage, even on a pro rated basis.

 

Let's compare:

 

The energy projector:

 

Pays for an EB 10d6, Armor Piercing (75 points, 7 END)

 

The HTH/Martial Artist/Guy

 

Pays for +15 STR plus HA +5d6, Armor Piercing, HA (40 points, 6 END)

 

When you compare the HTH guy's stuff with a No Range Version of the EB, the EB still comes out more expensive (50 points), so it looks like HA is unbalanced, broken, and needs to be fixed right away by the players because the authors are obviously smoking crack.

 

Or you could just look at both of them and see if the more expensive one it worth the extra points. Well, even a No Range EB is considerd a ranged attack (just has a range of 0-1"), and can't be blocked (but can be missile deflected). The EB can also still be spread for accuracy or area. The EB also has many more Active Points, all it one lumb sum, and is more difficult to Dispel or Suppress, and takes longer to Drain completely. Not a bad haul for a 10 point difference.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I think that HAs are far too efficient in the current system. I know that they have been difficult to design (the 5 active/die, with a mandatory 1/2 lim is better than the 3/die that BBB had)... they need to be cheaper than STR with "No Figured Characteristic", or have a comparatable advantage. Well, this would be that advantage, I guess.

 

There's an easy, easy fix.........

[prestidigitator]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I always pro-rate, whether for Killing or Normal attacks. The only difference is that there is essentially no cap to the Str that can add to a HA. So for a 5 DC Power that is Armor Piercing, it always takes 5*3/2 = 7.5 Str to add 1 DC. If it is an HKA, you can add up to 5 DCs this way, which requires 37 Str. If it is an HA, you can add any amount of DCs this way. If it is an attack without a Str Min, you can apply all the Str you are using to add damage. If it is a weapon with a Str Min, it is the Str you are using minus the Str Min.

[Guyon]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

character with a 40 Strength, who has a 5D6 Armor piercing sword.

 

OK how does this fly:

Since we are talking about mixed attack. When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field. Just double the damage by the Armor piercing since it is supped to cut armor in half.

 

So the attack would be strength 8D6 + 2*(5d6) with no reduction in armor.

 

It is simple and accurate.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

OK how does this fly:

Since we are talking about mixed attack. When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field. Just double the damage by the Armor piercing since it is supped to cut armor in half.

 

So the attack would be strength 8D6 + 2*(5d6) with no reduction in armor.

 

It is simple and accurate.

 

Not really. Assume for a moment that that the taget has a DEF of 0. The damage shouldn't increase, as there is no advantage for AP versus this target. Maybe there would be versus a heavily armored target, but by doubling the damage (even just doubling part of it), you are making it more effective against everyone which isn't how AP works.

[Guyon]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

@Dust Raven

Please re-read my last post, as I said you only double your armor piercing attack "When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field"

 

So you only use 2X damage when you are attacking an appropriate defense. Otherwise it is juts normal damage.

 

 

Doesn't this simplify mixed damage greatly?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

Please re-read my last post, as I said you only double your armor piercing attack "When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field"

 

So you only use 2X damage when you are attacking an appropriate defense. Otherwise it is juts normal damage.

 

 

Doesn't this simplify mixed damage greatly?

 

Two issues:

 

(a) Is it appropriate? Not in my opinion. Consider four opponents, noen with hardened defenses. They have DEF 10, DEF 20, DEF 30 and DEF 40. We'll use a 60 AP attack (12d6 normal or 8d6 AP). Average amage after defenses under present and your proposed models are as follows:

 

12d6 Normal 8d6 AP 8d6 AP Proposed

10 DEF: 32 23 46

 

20 DEF: 22 18 36

 

30 DEF: 12 13 26

 

40 DEF: 2 8 16

 

Your mechanic results in considerably greater damage at all levels of defense. The current approach is a tradeoff - better versus high defenses, but not low defenses. ie it "pierces armor", not "enhances damage".

 

( Is it simpler? Assume my character has a 10/10 Hardened force field, and PD and ED of 10 each. The AP shot will halve my ED to 5, leaving my Force Field untouched, so I subtract 15 DEF from the 28 damage and take 13. How will your doubling system work?

 

I suspect I apply my Force Field against 28, leaving 18, which is goubled to 36, against which my 10 ED applies, leaving 26.

 

Or do I apply my PD against 2x damage first, leaving 46, which is halved to 23 to apply to my force field, leaving 13, then doubled to make 26?

 

Or do I take 13 or 26 depending on which defense applies first (layering will make a huge difference in this case).

[Guyon]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

I don't get your example Hugh. Armor Piercing is canceled out by Hardened Defense so you do not get my double damage in that case.

 

 

Please check out my response about.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

@Dust Raven

Please re-read my last post, as I said you only double your armor piercing attack "When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field"

 

So you only use 2X damage when you are attacking an appropriate defense. Otherwise it is juts normal damage.

 

 

Doesn't this simplify mixed damage greatly?

 

Yes it does, but it also further unbalances it. Just because something is simple and easy doesn't mean it's fair.

 

Use my example again only with the first target having a DEF of 1 instead of 0. Your method just does more damage, it doesn't do damage more efficiently. (P.S.: Why FF and not Armor, normal PD/ED, etc.?)

 

And Hugh has a good point. What if the target only has partial Hardened Defenses? Normally, an entire attack is AP or it isn't AP, so you can just halve the defenses that aren't hardened. But now we aren't doing anything to defenses, so what do you do with the defenses that should still be affected by the attack?

[Guyon]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

Well I do want to be fair. Ok so how do you do this for V4 and can you give an example?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

In 4th Edition, all the damage added from STR was prorated, meaning you took the value of STR and treated it as adding Active Points to the HA or HKA, rather than DC.

 

Example: I buy a HA +4d6 and have a STR of 30. Without any Advantages on HA, the STR just adds damage, or rather, the HA just adds damage to the STR.

 

If you buy a HA +4d6 Armor Piercing and have a STR of 30. You take the 30 points of STR and treat them as if they were 30 Active Points of an attack with Armor Piercing on them. That is the same as a 4d6 AP, so when you add HA to the STR, you get an 8d6 AP attack.

 

Of course, HA only cost 3 points per 1d6 in 4th (as opposed to 5 points with a manditory Limitation). You still had to prorate STR based on a 5 point DC rather than a 3 point DC though.

 

I should note that this didn't work in reverse. If you had bought your 30 STR Armor Piercing and then an unmodified HA 4d6, you either hit without the HA for 6d6 AP, or with the HA for a 10d6 (non-AP).

 

Theoretically you can do the same in 5th Edition with little overall effect on the game. On the up side, you can add all of your STR to an Advantaged HA, and on the downside you don't get the option to just do your full STR plus HA damage (with no Advantages) like you can now.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Special Armor Piercing Q

 

OK how does this fly:

Since we are talking about mixed attack. When going against a defense such a non-hardened force field. Just double the damage by the Armor piercing since it is supped to cut armor in half.

 

So the attack would be strength 8D6 + 2*(5d6) with no reduction in armor.

 

It is simple and accurate.

I already said I pro-rate everything, but ignoring that for a moment and assuming I go with an approach like this, I would tend to be more restrictive rather than less. Specifically, I would rule very heavily in favor of the person with the defenses. I would have the two types of damage rolled separately, apply the non-AP portion to defenses first, and halve whatever non-Hardened defenses are left afterwards. Likewise, I would apply all damage to non-Hardened defenses first, so the least amount of defenses would actually be halved.

Example

Say an attacker hits with a (normal) attack that is 8d6 without AP plus 5d6 with AP. Let's say she rolls the same amount as Standard Effect would give you on each; that's 8 Body/24 Stun on the non-AP portion and 5 Body/15 Stun on the AP portion.

 

Let's say the defender has an appropriate defense that is 10 without Hardened and 3 with Hardened. Looking at the Body, I would say the non-Hardened applies first, reducing the non-AP Body to 0 with 2 non-Hardened and all 3 Hardened defense left. The 2 non-Hardened would then get halved, leaving a total of 2/2+3=4 def that applies to the AP portion of the attack. The defender takes 1 Body.

 

For the Stun, all defenses are used up on the non-AP portion of the attack, so the AP gives no benefit, and the defender takes 26 Stun.

...but I'm pretty brutal about Advantages such as AP.