Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

[tesuji]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Because in neither case are you applying a Modifier to the MP Cost which does not apply to every slot (in its entirety). Simple as that.

 

the circular reasoning is amazing...

 

why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers?

because that mp could be created as two that combine and thats ilegal.

 

why isn't this other multipower which could as well be built as two mp that combine illegal? because they are not partially limited.

 

net sum of those two statements... why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers? because its illegal to partially limit multipowers.

 

sometimes its just hilarious.

 

thanks!

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

the circular reasoning is amazing...

 

why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers?

because that mp could be created as two that combine and thats ilegal.

 

why isn't this other multipower which could as well be built as two mp that combine illegal? because they are not partially limited.

 

net sum of those two statements... why is it illegal to partially limit multipowers? because its illegal to partially limit multipowers.

 

sometimes its just hilarious.

 

thanks!

And others would say the lack of reasoning on your end is equally amazing.

 

Have fun!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

And others would say the lack of reasoning on your end is equally amazing.

 

Have fun!

Not me. I don't see any lack of reasoning on his part. The only amazing part is that you think there isn't.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

It seems to me that Simon's argument is moot anyway in regards to Dust Raven's original question. The MP that he wants is not a "partially limited framework." There is a Limitation on an Advantage that applies to the entire power of each slot. You can't split it up into two MPs. The 0 END applies to ALL the points in the reserve and the OAF applies to the 0 END.

 

And RE: the debate above:

 

A power can be limited.

A power can be partially limited.

If all powers in an MP have the same limitation, the reserve gets the limitation.

If all powers in an MP have the same partial limitation, the reserve doesn't get the partial limitation.

 

I don't see how the inconsistancy could be any clearer.

 

And I've never understood the reasoning behind the rule forbidding slots from different MP's being used together in the first place. But then again, I've always been a heretic.

 

Power A can be used together with Power B.

Slot C of MP 1 can be used together with Power D.

Slot E of MP 2 can't be used together with slot F of MP 2. Why not? The full real points of E and F have been paid, along with additional costs to put them in MultiPowers. How is it unbalancing?

 

I love Steve. I bow down to Steve. I kiss his boots. But he isn't infallible.

[JmOz]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

It's a bad rule

 

Simon is interpreting it right as per the current game designer (Steve Long)

 

It is still a bad rule

 

My advice: House Rule it away

 

News Flash: Steve Long makes bad desisions, it comes from a medical condition he has, called being Human. We should forgive the mistakes and correct them our selves in our games.

 

 

NOTE: I am not saying that every decision Steve makes is bad, just that they are not all perfect either (Don't get me started on DS or VarLim)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

It seems to me that Simon's argument is moot anyway in regards to Dust Raven's original question. The MP that he wants is not a "partially limited framework." There is a Limitation on an Advantage that applies to the entire power of each slot. You can't split it up into two MPs. The 0 END applies to ALL the points in the reserve and the OAF applies to the 0 END.

 

Yes. Thank you.

 

So my question still stands. What legal methods of creating what I want are there? I preferably want one that actually saves the character points rather than costs him extra.

[Black Rose]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

AFAICT, the only "legal" thing you can do is have each slot limited as you have already said, but the reserve has no partially limited advantages or limitations. If you want it anyway, it will be "illegal" (but entirely appropriate for your game if you choose), figure what the limited advantage or limitation would be worth, in fractions; 0 END (+1/2); OAF (-1) would be a +1/4. I'd just use one of the scalable advantages that doesn't alter anything on the page, like Variable SFX; only goes to +1/2, but still usable, and you can reuse it til you get where you want to be.

[tesuji]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Yes. Thank you.

 

So my question still stands. What legal methods of creating what I want are there? I preferably want one that actually saves the character points rather than costs him extra.

 

well, working from 5e, i think the best "legal" idea suggested so far was the naked advantage. Buy the +1/2 for 0 end with a -1 oaf as a limited advantage and state that it applies tyo the powers in the multipower. As i recall, this even ends up cheaper than the "illegal" partially limited multipower since you avoid paying slot costs on the naked adv.

 

.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Yes. Thank you.

 

So my question still stands. What legal methods of creating what I want are there? I preferably want one that actually saves the character points rather than costs him extra.

As far as I can tell, it is completely legal the way you're doing it now. It's not "partially limited." The ENTIRE multipower is 0 END if you have the focus, otherwise, the ENTIRE multipower costs normal END.

 

With a 60 base point reserve, the 0 END costs 30 points. The OAF lim applies to that 30/(1+1) = 15.

 

If HERO designer doesn't let you do this, then HD is the problem, not the rules. I would assume that you could do it with a Naked Advantage, which happily comes out to exactly the same 15 points. I don't use HD myself (I own a Mac). I've never had a problem with strict rules, interpretations of unclear rules, incorporation of house rules, or GM fiat alterations of the rules, or GM approval hand-waving of rules, or even flat out violation of the rules, when I use Word and a calculator to make character sheets.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

I don't even know if HD allows for partially limited Power, or a limited Advantge in any case, At least I haven't figured out how.

 

I'm not too sure about the applicibility of a Naked Advantage though. Wouldn't I have to buy one for each slot? Wait, I know that you can apply the Charges modifier to the Reserve and have it apply to each slot, even if it's an Advantage. Can you do with with other Advantages? For example, is the following legal?

 

MP 60 points, 0 END (90 points)

1) EB 12d6 (6 points)

2) Flash Sight Group 12d6 (6 points)

3) RKA 4d6 (6 points)

 

And each slot purchased automatically has 0 END? Have I done this correctly?

 

And just to throw in a monky wrench... what if one of the slots if Autofire?

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

I don't even know if HD allows for partially limited Power, or a limited Advantge in any case, At least I haven't figured out how.

 

I'm not too sure about the applicibility of a Naked Advantage though. Wouldn't I have to buy one for each slot? Wait, I know that you can apply the Charges modifier to the Reserve and have it apply to each slot, even if it's an Advantage. Can you do with with other Advantages? For example, is the following legal?

 

MP 60 points, 0 END (90 points)

1) EB 12d6 (6 points)

2) Flash Sight Group 12d6 (6 points)

3) RKA 4d6 (6 points)

 

And each slot purchased automatically has 0 END? Have I done this correctly?

 

And just to throw in a monky wrench... what if one of the slots if Autofire?

You can do partially limited powers in HD. You construct them in pretty much the same manner as they are described in 5E and 5ER.

 

You can also assign 0-END to the MP as a Common Modifier and have it apply to each slot.

 

I should note (since you mentioned it) that Charges is a "special case" when applied to an MP as a Common Modifier (affecting all slots) -- it will affect each slot (making them 0-END), but if it's an Advantage, it will not increase the cost of the slots. This is in accordance with some rather complex rules in 5E and 5ER (Charges are moderately rediculous in their complexity).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Common Modifier? Is that what it's called? Well, if it has a term for it, it must be legal then.

 

A clarification question re: Common Modifier costs: With a "normal" common modifier (i.e. not charges), does it also increase the cost of the slots (meaning the slots in the example above would cost 9 and not 6 points)?

 

Also, given that I'm applying a Common Modifer to a Multipower, do the rules for a Partially Limited MP apply? Or is Limiting a Common Modifier a different case and handled differently, and if so how?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

I don't even know if HD allows for partially limited Power, or a limited Advantge in any case, At least I haven't figured out how.

 

I'm not too sure about the applicibility of a Naked Advantage though. Wouldn't I have to buy one for each slot? Wait, I know that you can apply the Charges modifier to the Reserve and have it apply to each slot, even if it's an Advantage. Can you do with with other Advantages? For example, is the following legal?

 

MP 60 points, 0 END (90 points)

1) EB 12d6 (6 points)

2) Flash Sight Group 12d6 (6 points)

3) RKA 4d6 (6 points)

 

And each slot purchased automatically has 0 END? Have I done this correctly?

 

And just to throw in a monky wrench... what if one of the slots if Autofire?

 

According to the description of Advantages on Multipowers on 5E p. 207, GMs are advised not to allow characters to buy Reduced Endurance just for the Reserve without "an extremely good justification;" they should buy it for the slots as well. So your example is, if not outright illegal, at least highly questionable. You'd need to raise the Active Points of every slot to 90 to accomodate Reduced Endurance.

 

Again, it seems that the Naked Advantage approach is the most applicable here. DR, I'm not sure if you missed my last post about Naked Advantages earlier on this thread, so I'll just bring up the pertinent points here:

 

A Naked Advantage should have something that limits its function in ways that the Power(s) it modifies does not - you have that covered with your OAF for the Reduced Endurance. For a Naked Advantage that applies to several Powers, those Powers should be similar enough that it would make sense for it to do so. Again, I would say that your Multipower and the SFX of the Focus qualifies.

 

In this case the NA has to be payed for based on the Active Points of the largest Power it applies to, including any Advantages, as if those Active Points were Base Points. To take your example Multipower above, all the slots are unmodified 60 AP Powers, so a 0 END Naked Advantage applying to all of them would cost 30 Active Points. If every slot was actually Advantaged, but still came to 60 AP (e.g. 8d6 Armor Piercing, 6d6 Area Of Effect etc.), the NA would still cost 30.

 

If only one of those slots came to 60 AP and the rest were smaller, the NA would still cost the same because it has to fit the largest Power.

 

Now, if one of those 60 AP slots had the Autofire Advantage, then the Reduced Endurance Naked Advantage would have to cost double, i.e. 60 Active Points for 0 END. It would still reduce the END cost of all the other slots as normal.

 

I hope that was clear. If not please post followup questions.

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Common Modifier? Is that what it's called? Well, if it has a term for it, it must be legal then.

 

A clarification question re: Common Modifier costs: With a "normal" common modifier (i.e. not charges), does it also increase the cost of the slots (meaning the slots in the example above would cost 9 and not 6 points)?

No, they won't. My statement above was a bit poorly worded. Charges won't affect the cost of the slots regardless of their value (that's why they are a "special case"). Advantages on an MP never affect the cost of the slots (in accordance with the rules). Nor do they increase the maximum Active Cost of the Powers that can be placed in the MP.

 

So, for example:

 

a 60 point MP with a +1 AOE (Radius) Advantage placed on it will cost 120 points.

 

A 12d6 EB slot in the MP will cost 6 points (as an ultra slot). It will still be AOE (all slots will be). Additionally, the 12d6 EB is the maximum that will fit into the MP. A 13d6 EB will have too high of an Active Cost for the MP and will not be allowed in.

 

Also' date=' given that I'm applying a Common Modifer to a Multipower, do the rules for a Partially Limited MP apply? Or is Limiting a Common Modifier a different case and handled differently, and if so how?[/quote']

Simply appying a comon Modifier to an MP does not denote a partially Limited MP. That's just applying a Limitation or an Advantage.

 

What you're looking to do is to have an Advantage for which a Limitation has been applied to the Advantage itself. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a Naked Advantage.

 

An example of a partially Limited Power would be "6d6 Energy Blast plus 6d6 Energy Blast; x2 END plus 6d6 Energy Blast; x4 END"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Okay, so the legal and rules approved method of doing this is to buy a Naked Advantage for the Multipower? And that's it? I just go ahead and buy the Multipower as normal (as it would work without the Focus), and then buy a Naked Reduced END (0 END) Advantage with OAF and I'm done?

 

That seems a lot easier than I thought it would be...

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Okay, so the legal and rules approved method of doing this is to buy a Naked Advantage for the Multipower? And that's it? I just go ahead and buy the Multipower as normal (as it would work without the Focus), and then buy a Naked Reduced END (0 END) Advantage with OAF and I'm done?

 

That seems a lot easier than I thought it would be...

Sounds about right....

 

The hardest part is in describing the construction of the Naked Modifier.

 

Within HD, you purchase 0-END as the Naked Modifier. When defining the NM, you have two types of Modifiers that you can assign: Naked Modifiers and straight Modifiers. The Naked Modifiers are what you are looking to apply (in this case, 0-END). The straight Modifiers affect the Naked Modifier itself (in this case, Focus).

 

So you would purchase 0-END as a Naked Modifier and assign Focus as a Limitation on the Naked Modifier (not on the MP).

 

The concept is simple...as is the implementation....but the explanation is cumbersome.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Slight aside about HD.

 

I haven't actually used it, but it seems to me from everything people say that HD is a little too restrictive in what it allows you to do. Taking anyone's (even the core rulebook's) rulings as absolutely unbreakable in a system where the GM can and should allow any construct (s)he feels is reasonable just seems wrong. Does HD have a way of turning off such restrictions, or changing them to warnings rather than impossibilities?

 

I've been pondering the possibility of just writing a simple application that allows the creation of a character according to the basic mathematical mechanics of the system, adding pre-canned Advantages and Limitations (those out of the book), and leaving it at that. It shouldn't be too hard. Is it worth it, or can HD be used in this way?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Slight aside about HD.

 

I haven't actually used it, but it seems to me from everything people say that HD is a little too restrictive in what it allows you to do. Taking anyone's (even the core rulebook's) rulings as absolutely unbreakable in a system where the GM can and should allow any construct (s)he feels is reasonable just seems wrong. Does HD have a way of turning off such restrictions, or changing them to warnings rather than impossibilities?

 

I've been pondering the possibility of just writing a simple application that allows the creation of a character according to the basic mathematical mechanics of the system, adding pre-canned Advantages and Limitations (those out of the book), and leaving it at that. It shouldn't be too hard. Is it worth it, or can HD be used in this way?

 

To some degree it can.

 

You can turn off some restrictions. You just have to be more creative in some cases as pointed out in this thread.

 

HM

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Slight aside about HD.

 

I haven't actually used it, but it seems to me from everything people say that HD is a little too restrictive in what it allows you to do. Taking anyone's (even the core rulebook's) rulings as absolutely unbreakable in a system where the GM can and should allow any construct (s)he feels is reasonable just seems wrong. Does HD have a way of turning off such restrictions, or changing them to warnings rather than impossibilities?

 

I've been pondering the possibility of just writing a simple application that allows the creation of a character according to the basic mathematical mechanics of the system, adding pre-canned Advantages and Limitations (those out of the book), and leaving it at that. It shouldn't be too hard. Is it worth it, or can HD be used in this way?

Almost all restrictions can be turned off via a simple toggle in the application preferences (indicating whether or not to use modifier intelligence).

 

For those few items that are "hard coded" into the application (frex: ultra slots on a multipower costing 1/10 the real point value of the slot's power), you can get around them via custom abilities (frex: creating a list with a cost multiplier of .125 -- which will set all slots to 1/8 their normal cost).

 

For those who want permanent changes to power constructions, there's the custom template capabilities within HD, which allows you to change most of the rules by which the application operates.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

So, for example:

 

a 60 point MP with a +1 AOE (Radius) Advantage placed on it will cost 120 points.

 

A 12d6 EB slot in the MP will cost 6 points (as an ultra slot). It will still be AOE (all slots will be). Additionally, the 12d6 EB is the maximum that will fit into the MP. A 13d6 EB will have too high of an Active Cost for the MP and will not be allowed in.

What?! Where are you getting this? One of the examples in FREd (I don't have 5ER) specifically shows an MP with the advantage DR is talking about: 50 base points of power with 1/2 END (a +1/4 advantage), resulting in 62 points for the reserve cost and 6 points each for the slots, not 5.

 

You don't get a 120 Active Point slot (with no limitations) for only 6 points. Is this a change in 5ER? You don't have to pay for advantages on slots if the Advantage applies to all of them? You just apply it to the reserve only? That strikes me as very unbalanced. Check the costs of the following MPs:

 

120 Reserve 60 base +1 AE Radius

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

6u 12d6 Flash

Total cost: 138 points, all slots get AE: Radius for "free," all slots are 120 active.

 

120 Reserve 120 Active points

12u 12d6 EB, AE: Radius (+1)

12u 4d6 RKA, AE: One Hex, No Range Mod (+1)

12u 12d6 Flash, AE: Radius, Non-selective, 1/2 END (+1)

Total cost: 156 points, all slots are 120 active.

 

What I think Dust Raven was originally looking for is this:

 

75 Reserve 60 base +[0 END (+1/2) that only applies w/OAF (-1)], i.e. +(60 x 1/2)/(1+1) = 30/2 = 15

7u Slot A

7u Slot B

7u Slot C

(or alternatively:

15m Slot A

15m Slot B

15m Slot C,

or some combination of the two).

 

You have to take into account the entire active cost of the slot, not just the base cost, as I understand it. If I'm wrong, can you point me to a page number? Preferably one in FREd rather than 5ER.

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

What?! Where are you getting this? One of the examples in FREd (I don't have 5ER) specifically shows an MP with the advantage DR is talking about: 50 base points of power with 1/2 END (a +1/4 advantage), resulting in 62 points for the reserve cost and 6 points each for the slots, not 5.

 

You don't get a 120 Active Point slot (with no limitations) for only 6 points. Is this a change in 5ER? You don't have to pay for advantages on slots if the Advantage applies to all of them? You just apply it to the reserve only? That strikes me as very unbalanced. Check the costs of the following MPs:

 

120 Reserve 60 base +1 AE Radius

6u 12d6 EB

6u 4d6 RKA

6u 12d6 Flash

Total cost: 138 points, all slots get AE: Radius for "free," all slots are 120 active.

 

120 Reserve 120 Active points

12u 12d6 EB, AE: Radius (+1)

12u 4d6 RKA, AE: One Hex, No Range Mod (+1)

12u 12d6 Flash, AE: Radius, Non-selective, 1/2 END (+1)

Total cost: 156 points, all slots are 120 active.

 

What I think Dust Raven was originally looking for is this:

 

75 Reserve 60 base +[0 END (+1/2) that only applies w/OAF (-1)], i.e. +(60 x 1/2)/(1+1) = 30/2 = 15

7u Slot A

7u Slot B

7u Slot C

(or alternatively:

15m Slot A

15m Slot B

15m Slot C,

or some combination of the two).

 

You have to take into account the entire active cost of the slot, not just the base cost, as I understand it. If I'm wrong, can you point me to a page number? Preferably one in FREd rather than 5ER.

Rules according to Steve Long. When you place an Advantage onto an MP, the Advantage will affect the function of the slots, but not the cost.

 

I'm not going to argue the sense in that, except to say that placing Advantages onto the MP itself is something that is considered a "with GM permission only".

 

You'll find this rule on page 319 of 5ER. Second column. Under the heading "Advantages for Multipower Reserves":

If a character is allowed to apply an Advantage just to the reserve so that it affects all the slots' date=' that Advantage does not affect the cost of the slots.[/quote']

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

I'm not going to argue the sense in that' date=' except to say that placing Advantages onto the MP itself is something that is considered a "with GM permission only".[/quote']

Fair enough. As a GM, I don't think I would ever give such permission. (Except in the case of the Charges as previously noted.) Off hand, I can't think of any reason to do so. A player who simply doesn't want to pay END for any of his slots, or who wants to have all his slots AE, is not a good enough reason, IMO. "You want all your slots 0 END? Then buy all your slots 0 END. You want all your slots AE? Then buy all your slots AE." That's my reasoning. I don't think I'm being unfair.

 

(not trying to argue)

[Simon]

Re: Partially Limited Multipower Reserve?

 

Fair enough. As a GM, I don't think I would ever give such permission. (Except in the case of the Charges as previously noted.) Off hand, I can't think of any reason to do so. A player who simply doesn't want to pay END for any of his slots, or who wants to have all his slots AE, is not a good enough reason, IMO. "You want all your slots 0 END? Then buy all your slots 0 END. You want all your slots AE? Then buy all your slots AE." That's my reasoning. I don't think I'm being unfair.

 

(not trying to argue)

Not being unfair at all. The book pretty much states exactly that (both 5E and 5ER).