Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

[Acroyear II]

Can someone tell me if the Limitation Extra Time (Regeneration Only) replaces the need to add the Self Only Limitation to the Regeneration version of Healing? I don't have the Revised 5th Edition (can't afford it yet), but I do have the updated Hero Designer with this opition in it.

 

Thanks.

[Wanderer]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Can someone tell me if the Limitation Extra Time (Regeneration Only) replaces the need to add the Self Only Limitation to the Regeneration version of Healing? I don't have the Revised 5th Edition (can't afford it yet), but I do have the updated Hero Designer with this opition in it.

 

Thanks.

 

Nope, the writeup for Regeneration still looks like:

 

Rapid Healing: Healing 3 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

You still need both Extra Time (Regeneration Only) and Self Only. The Extra Time Regeneration option only specifically marks the power as being regeneration and not vanilla healing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Other than painting the Power as "regeneration" rather than just another Healing Power, why do we have Extra Time (Regeneration Only)? Seems a bit redundant to me.

[Simon]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Other than painting the Power as "regeneration" rather than just another Healing Power' date=' why do we have Extra Time (Regeneration Only)? Seems a bit redundant to me.[/quote']

Because the values are different from the normal Extra Time Limitation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Because the values are different from the normal Extra Time Limitation.

 

They are? Certainly doesn't look like it. Post Segment 12 for both is a -1 1/4, and progresses an additional -1/4 each step down the time chart.

[Simon]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

They are? Certainly doesn't look like it. Post Segment 12 for both is a -1 1/4' date=' and progresses an additional -1/4 each step down the time chart.[/quote']

Yup. They are.

 

Extra Time does not progress at -1/4 per level on the time chart.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Yup. They are.

 

Extra Time does not progress at -1/4 per level on the time chart.

 

Then what does it progress at? The only difference I'm seeing is that Extra Time (Regeneration Only) starts at Post Segment 12 and progresses at 1/4 per level on the time chart, and normal Extra Time also includes Full Phase, Extra Phase, Delayed Phase, etc, but then progresses at 1/4 per level on the time chart. The only different I can find is that the Regen Only version doesn't include any of the levels below Post Segment 12. That's hardly a functional difference, just an unnecessary redundancy.

[Simon]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Look at the 5 minutes (and above) levels for Extra Time. They increase at 1/2 per level.

 

Extra Time (Regeneration Only) has a linear curve at 1/4 per level. Extra Time does not. It has the same curve up to 1 minute, but then changes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Nope, the writeup for Regeneration still looks like:

 

Rapid Healing: Healing 3 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2)

 

You still need both Extra Time (Regeneration Only) and Self Only. The Extra Time Regeneration option only specifically marks the power as being regeneration and not vanilla healing.

:sigh: I've always thought that if Regeneration is really to be built this way, it should have the Cumulative Advantage (or somethink like it), since Healing is not normally cumulative. That Healing suddenly becomes cumulative when you buy it as Regeneration is awfully artificial. It raises the question of what to do if you start adding or taking away Advantages and Limitations. Exactly when does it become cumulative? Can I drop the Self Only Limitation and have anyone who touches me (possibly with the addition of increased number of users from UBO) Regenerate while in contact with me? If not, why not?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

:sigh: I've always thought that if Regeneration is really to be built this way' date=' it should have the Cumulative Advantage (or somethink like it), since Healing is not normally cumulative. That Healing suddenly becomes cumulative when you buy it as Regeneration is awfully artificial. It raises the question of what to do if you start adding or taking away Advantages and Limitations. Exactly when does it become cumulative? Can I drop the Self Only Limitation and have anyone who touches me (possibly with the addition of increased number of users from UBO) Regenerate while in contact with me? If not, [i']why[/i] not?

I make the justification that it's cumulative (+1/2) in exchange for getting only 2 pips of effect per die rather than 3 for the Standard Effect normally: You only get 1 BODY/"die" rather than 1.5 BODY. That's handwaving on my part, but it works out to be fairly balanced.

 

As for not having Self Only, then it would have to stop working on you while you were regenerating someone else, which would contradict the Persistant. The idea is it keeps working without your conscious decision. (More hand-waving, I admit.) You don't want the bad guy regenerating himself by touching you, do you?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

I'm not a great fan of the healing time reset Advantage, but it seems to me that Regeneration works great if you use it.

 

Btw, as written it doesn't use the Cumulative Advantage. It's all handwaving. Essentially this is how Regeneration works; you buy it like this, and you can't get a Regeneration effect if you buy it any other way. You can't regenerate per Phase, you can't regenerate other people.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Look at the 5 minutes (and above) levels for Extra Time. They increase at 1/2 per level.

 

Extra Time (Regeneration Only) has a linear curve at 1/4 per level. Extra Time does not. It has the same curve up to 1 minute, but then changes.

 

Ah. I've never bought the ET (RO) down that slow, so I never noticed. At the risk of asking a design philosophy question, why is it like this?

[Simon]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Ah. I've never bought the ET (RO) down that slow' date=' so I never noticed. At the risk of asking a design philosophy question, why is it like this?[/quote']

I have no idea.

 

Honestly, I'm not really sure why Regen was merged into Healing....they're similar in terms of SFX, but they're different enough in terms of construction and operation that they really should be separate, distinct Powers (IMO).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

I have no idea.

 

Honestly, I'm not really sure why Regen was merged into Healing....they're similar in terms of SFX, but they're different enough in terms of construction and operation that they really should be separate, distinct Powers (IMO).

 

If it needs a unique Limitation that only applies to Healing bought as Regen, then I agree. You effectively have a new Power and it should be intruduced into the rules as such. If the Extra Time is identical for all Powers, Healing Regen included, then I'd like the current method for Regen just fine. But now it's breaking it's own rules just to function.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

I make the justification that it's cumulative (+1/2) in exchange for getting only 2 pips of effect per die rather than 3 for the Standard Effect normally: You only get 1 BODY/"die" rather than 1.5 BODY. That's handwaving on my part' date=' but it works out to be fairly balanced.[/quote']

That seems reasonable. I would just prefer that it actually be written out as an Advantage. Cumulative seems awfully appropriate (though I believe it wouldn't normally apply to an Adjustment Power, which Healing--and thus Regeneration --technically is).

 

As for not having Self Only, then it would have to stop working on you while you were regenerating someone else, which would contradict the Persistant. The idea is it keeps working without your conscious decision. (More hand-waving, I admit.) You don't want the bad guy regenerating himself by touching you, do you?

Well, I'd personally allow additional Advantage value as if the Power already had UBO, so usable Simultaneously would cost +1/2, and each doubling of targets would be +1/4. YMMV, of course.

 

EDIT: Oh, and as to the bad guy regenerating if he touched you? Yeah, I'd want it to work that way if that made sense for the SFX (yes, even if it might be detrimental to the character). Perhaps the character is, "a source of life energy; anything in conact with him heals rapidly." Of course, the baddie would have to do something like Grab the character and hold him for a while for it to work. Of course, that might entail additional Limitations or whatever.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Btw' date=' as written it doesn't use the Cumulative Advantage. It's all handwaving. Essentially this is how Regeneration works; you buy it like this, and you can't get a Regeneration effect if you buy it any other way. You can't regenerate per Phase, you can't regenerate other people.[/quote']

I know. This is what peevs me! It is completely inflexible, which is exactly the opposite of the way I want the system to be. You can't, you can't, you can't! Great. Sounds like Hero to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

I know. This is what peevs me! It is completely inflexible' date=' which is exactly the opposite of the way I want the system to be. You [i']can't[/i], you can't, you can't! Great. Sounds like Hero to me.

 

Well, everyone's free to do it their own way. As far as the 'you can't' angle of character design, how many hero canon published examples are there that show a build that is illegal and include an explination of why it was done that way anyway in that particular case (or maybe don't even have an explination)? Lots. So if you want a special Regen Power that affects other people, just buy it.

 

My favorite is buying Healing 1d6 0 END, Persistant, AE: Radius, x4 Area, Extra Time: 1 Turn. 35 active, 16 real, and you now have a regeneration field that surrounds you and automatically regenerates damage done to anyone in the area. I'd have wave that it only works on things that heal naturally without any kind of limitation though, as it's a marvelous effect already for the points spent.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Well, everyone's free to do it their own way. As far as the 'you can't' angle of character design, how many hero canon published examples are there that show a build that is illegal and include an explination of why it was done that way anyway in that particular case (or maybe don't even have an explination)? Lots. So if you want a special Regen Power that affects other people, just buy it.

 

My favorite is buying Healing 1d6 0 END, Persistant, AE: Radius, x4 Area, Extra Time: 1 Turn. 35 active, 16 real, and you now have a regeneration field that surrounds you and automatically regenerates damage done to anyone in the area. I'd have wave that it only works on things that heal naturally without any kind of limitation though, as it's a marvelous effect already for the points spent.

I know you are free to do it your own way, but I have a problem with it because Regeneration is a pretty common thing to buy (well, more common than a lot of other particular power constructs). So, for your example, what if you roll 1 Body in your first Turn, 2 Body on your second, and 1 Body on your third; have you healed 2 Body as normal Healing would do, or 4 Body as Regeneration would? If we use Standard Effect, have you healed 1 Body, or 3? This may be completely different from GM to GM. It is not a matter of having a construct that definitely works one way or the other and simply getting it approved between GMs. For that matter, if I want to build one Power like your example that works one way, and one that works the other, how do I differentiate? It seems to me that the cumulative Regeneration-like one should be (a lot?) more expensive. Don't you think so?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

Maybe a little, but not a lot. Then again, when you are using Healing for a regeneration effect, you are only getting 2/3 of standard effect, and SE is already lower than an average roll. I'd say it's a fair trade off. Kind of an unwritten rule that if Healing is bought 0 END and Persistant and apply it only to BODY, you can cumulatively heal 1 point of BODY (2 active points) per die rather than rolling for active points affected.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Extra Time (Regeneration Only)

 

That seems reasonable. I would just prefer that it actually be written out as an Advantage.

Me too.

 

Cumulative seems awfully appropriate (though I believe it wouldn't normally apply to an Adjustment Power, which Healing--and thus Regeneration --technically is).

I don't know if this was changed in 5ER, but FREd specifically lists Cumulative as applicable to Adjustment Powers (provided they don't have some other specified way of increasing the adjustment amount). This is noted in the Adjustment Powers section, rather than in the individual powers sections. Now get this: Of all the Adjustment Powers, Drain, Aid, Absorption, and Transfer are either already "cumulative" or have ways to increase their maximum. The only Adjustment Powers left are Suppress and Healing. If they didn't want to allow Cumulative for Healing, then that would only leave Suppress, in which case why not put the Cumulative note under that one individual power instead of the Adjustment category?

 

Well, I'd personally allow additional Advantage value as if the Power already had UBO, so usable Simultaneously would cost +1/2, and each doubling of targets would be +1/4. YMMV, of course.

 

EDIT: Oh, and as to the bad guy regenerating if he touched you? Yeah, I'd want it to work that way if that made sense for the SFX (yes, even if it might be detrimental to the character). Perhaps the character is, "a source of life energy; anything in conact with him heals rapidly." Of course, the baddie would have to do something like Grab the character and hold him for a while for it to work. Of course, that might entail additional Limitations or whatever.

I don't mean to imply that there's only one way to interpret it. Obviouslu there's a lot of fuzzy hand waving going on here. My only concern is that the power has the appropriate cost. To me, the Persistant advantage implies that the power continues to work without you having to make a conscious decision about how to apply it or whom to apply it to (and in fact, you don't have to be conscious at all). If you want to be able to choose to use it on your friends but not your enemies, and still be Persistant, then you *must* pay for UBO. If you don't buy Persistant and don't take Self Only, then you've just got regular Healing and you don't need UBO.

 

Also the Extra Time thing for Regen can be compared to Gradual Effect, rather than the usual ET. (Yet more hand waving. )

 

It could have been a separate power, with the current construct shown to demonstrate the reasoning behind the price.

 

Overall, I think it works out OK. It was too expensive in 4th, and is more fairly priced now, even though the construction is sloppy.