Issues/concerns around Flash

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Here's a thought: perhaps recovery should be at a set rate too, rather than being a characteristic, and we should remove the concept of resting on phases you are not otherwise using.

 

Adjustment Powers and Flash are designed to represent influences that "taking a break" wouldn't alter. Simple combat damage however is not meant to work that way.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Adjustment Powers and Flash are designed to represent influences that "taking a break" wouldn't alter. Simple combat damage however is not meant to work that way.

 

i would tend to say that with the wide variety of SFX available to both adjustment and flash attacks, most any sweeping statement about their "representing" are less than helpful.

 

I could easily see a strength drain SFX fatigue where taking recoveries or even having a high recovery is relevent to recovery time.

 

I could see a flash SFX web-on-face where speed of actions matters too and a faster guy gets his eyes cleared sooner.

 

I could certainly entertain the notion of having these powers having a non-rigid per-time recovery but instead also have one which is target-traits-based or even a circumstantial based recovery.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

i would tend to say that with the wide variety of SFX available to both adjustment and flash attacks' date=' most any sweeping statement about their "representing" are less than helpful..[/quote']

 

EB represents stuff that does damage. That's why it's brought in 1d6 damage per 5 point groups. That's a sweeping statement that is also simple fact.

 

Same thing with adjustment and flash attacks, it's the game system mechanical truth.

 

I could certainly entertain the notion of having these powers having a non-rigid per-time recovery but instead also have one which is target-traits-based or even a circumstantial based recovery.

 

That's what limits/advantages are for.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

OK, given that we have advantages/limitations and can apply them in interesting and creative ways, why have in-game systems working off different time scales: one 'absolute' the other 'relative'? Wouldn't it make more sense for them all to work the same way with an option to work the other?

 

Looking at it, in fact, mental powers (except ego attack) are also 'absolute' in that you get a breakout on your next phase and then on each step of the time chart. I suppose this means you are better off mind controlling fast characters: you get more utility if they fail that first breakout roll

 

The point I make though is WHY should we have a REC characteristic at all? Why not have STUN and END recover at a set rate, so the totals become more important? Maybe I'm just being old-fashioned but REC always cionfused me a bit: I'm really strong so I get my breath back quickly! Cart before the horse, IMO.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

OK' date=' given that we have advantages/limitations and can apply them in interesting and creative ways, why have in-game systems working off different time scales: one 'absolute' the other 'relative'?[/quote']

 

To provide differences between mechanical effects in the core system that inspires interesting and diverse play.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The point I make though is WHY should we have a REC characteristic at all? Why not have STUN and END recover at a set rate' date=' so the totals become more important?[/quote']

 

You're feel to buy the same REC values for every character in your campaign. I promise I won't attempt to stop you.

 

[Silbeg]

Re: What are the real Issues/concerns around Flash?

 

I have not had a problem with Flashes in my games so I can not speak from experience.

 

It seems to me that the problem Silbeg has is one of his characters is unbalancingly more effective in combat than the other characters.

Actually, it was an NPC villain (Mirage, actually), who had a 10d6 Flash vs Sight Group that cause the major ruckus. Since this (along with various Image producing devices) was her main "attack" against the heroes, it should have done something. The PC with the 2-sense Flash is less of an issue... though if he focuses on this as his main attack, it could be an issue, I suppose.

 

Second, I think the approach to this problem should come from a more generalized view. Let us not single out Flash but on the overall effect this is having; targets are easily being removed from combat. Silbeg obviously feels this is a problem but did not specify whether it was because the challenges he is presenting the PCs are not challenging or because this single PC is stealing the spotlight in combat.

 

Interestingly, it is the player of this character that brought to me the concerns about Flash... not the players whose characters were taken out of the combat by the more simple Flash last session. The player of Kid Comet was concerned that KC might have an overbalancing effect, if he chose to focus on this ability.

 

In my humble opinion if you change the cost of Flash or limit its effectiveness as a rule the player will feel singled out and angry. No one really likes having their pet ability 'nerfed'.

 

 

With the player owning the ability suggesting changes, I am less concerned about the problem. In fact, he still sees this attack as a secondary attack... the character prefers to act more like a brick than a blaster, so I am not concerned about this being a problem.

 

 

All of that being said, we aren't yet making changes to the rules to compensate for that which hasn't been proven to be a problem. In general, my "in game" response is that when villains learn that a certain hero is more of a threat, they will tend to team up to take that one out first (a very realistic response, I would think).

 

 

On the other hand, I think that voluntarily depriving yourself of a sense should effectively reduce your vulnerability to being flashed... however, I may state that you cannot abort to close your eyes, you would need to have a held phase to do it... that would be consistent with other non-defensive actions. Most likely, I will be allowing covering your eyes (or whatever) to give the effect of 5 Flash DEF. Seems the most fair way of handling it. Also, you will be blind until your next phase, but that is the price you pay - will help against the big flashes, at least

[Silbeg]

Re: Not in concept

 

It's not just Flash/Flash Defense that falls into this category. It's any nonstandard attack. Mental Powers' date=' NNDs, etc. [/quote']

 

On the case of Mental DEF, as long as we are beating around that bush, I could easily see this as being something that is trainable. I would argue that most of the X-Men have at least some Mental DEF, as they have undergone significant training. However, this may be something that is a genre issue, as they are mentored by a "world-class" mentalist...

 

But I would also say that Mental DEF would not be out of the ordinary for a martial artist, for example; especially those styles that have a meditative art (Shaolin, etc) as well as the combative art.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I think you guys are being quite skimpy on your definition of "concept". Flash Defense is a game mechanic to simulate your ability to resist a certain kind of attack. That's all. It is not always "polarized lenses".

 

Captain America has Flash Defense. Cap's Flash Defense is defined as "moving the shield in front of his face and the last possible second". In this way, he'll shrug off small Area Effect Flashes (ones that his +3 DCV shield wouldn't apply against) without a problem. Cap effectively has "Combat Luck" Flash Defense. Batman has the same thing. Both of these guys instinctively protect their eyes, to the point where they aren't even affected by the majority of agent-level Flash attacks.

 

Hercules, the Thing, Thor, and Superman also have Flash Defense. They have Flash Defense based on being tough. They have Flash Defense based on the fact that a bullet will bounce off their eyeballs. Once you hit a certain amount of resistant defense, it's perfectly in concept for you to have Flash Defense and Power Defense based on just being too tough to hurt. "Why does he have 20 points of Power Defense?" "Because that 6D6 poisonous Body Drain just isn't deadly enough to kill any of his cells--he's tough." You're looking at a guy whose teeth are harder than diamonds and whose eardrums are tougher than battleship armor. Flash Defense isn't "out of concept".

 

Too often people get too caught up in the concept that a Power must have one specific special effect (Flash Defense must be some sort of specific eye protection). But that's not abiding by the rules, either the letter of, or the spirit of. If my writeup of Cap has 5 points of Flash Defense "Combat Reflexes", another 5 with OIF "Shield protection", and 5 more with a limitation only for combat (i.e., no reading stop signs), defined as "Improved Combat Sense", then who is to say that is out of concept? It mimics exactly what happens if you hit Cap with a Flash. He is closes his eyes at exactly the right time, bringing his shield up in front of his face as he does so. Then, still blinded a bit, he hurls his shield towards you with uncanny accuracy and nails you in the teeth. With preternatural awareness of the battlefield, he hops around, artfully dodging attacks until his sense of sight returns.

 

Cap has Flash Defense.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I think you guys are being quite skimpy on your definition of "concept".

 

We'd say that you are terribly forgiving on your definition of concept, so much so that it doesn't really limit anything.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

We'd say that you are terribly forgiving on your definition of concept' date=' so much so that it doesn't really limit anything.[/quote']

 

Champions doesn't have character classes. Concept is what the player wants it to be. I fail to see how Batman is a valid concept for Flash Defense if he's defined as having "polarized lenses" as an OIF, but not "cape-fu" as an OIF.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Champions doesn't have character classes. Concept is what the player wants it to be.

 

Is that actually a real debate point- or just wish fulfillment?

 

The simple truth is that 'concept is' whatever the GM lets the player get away with. GMs being people, this will be a mix of good and bad decisions. For some, "I want a bad-as* character is all the concept needed". For others (such as yourself), it's whatever weasel point I can make that justifies what I want.

 

For others, it's actually what's reasonable for the character at hand.

 

For example in this one- Cap's High DCV with bonuses for the Shield protects him against direct Flashes and Non-selective Area Effect ones (the most common) as much as it should- i.e. he's safe from anything that can't overcome his rather vast skill. Standard actions allowed by the rules to any character combined with his Combat Sense allows him to deal with the others.

 

The only reason to add a poorly reasoned Flash Defense power to all the above as you suggest is to power-game, or cope with a campaign world very different than the one Captain America was designed to actually exist in.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Is that actually a real debate point- or just wish fulfillment?

 

It's a response to whatever you were talking about. Your two sentence response was rather vague and nebulous. Hence, my answer was as well.

 

The simple truth is that 'concept is' whatever the GM lets the player get away with.

 

Certainly. I had a guy who wanted to play Really Really Big Man from Ren and Stimpy. Having only ever seen about half a Ren and Stimpy episode years before, I was only a little concerned. Then I see this character sheet with things like "Nipples of Destiny" written on it. Since it was a solo-game that was going to lead his character into a pre-existing campaign, I let him run it for that one session. Needless to say, the other players found the mutilated body of Really Really Big Man during the next session (and the player who created the character made a new, better character who went on for a decent amount of time in the regular campaign). So, yes, there are certainly limits to what the GM will let the player get away with. Nipples of Destiny are outside those limits.

 

GMs being people, this will be a mix of good and bad decisions. For some, "I want a bad-as* character is all the concept needed". For others (such as yourself), it's whatever weasel point I can make that justifies what I want.

 

5th Edition has introduced "Combat Luck" as an official talent. It's resistant defenses when a characters "concept" means that he's certainly not bulletproof. I see no difference between that and "Combat Flash Defense". Again, I see no difference between a Batman with OIF FD "polarized lenses" and OIF FD "skill with cape". No difference at all. Certainly, in some genres, some of these powers will be inappropriate. I wouldn't allow characters in a horror game to buy any sort of powers, Combat Luck included. But especially for superheroes, I see no problem with Flash Defense defined as "decades of fighting skill and expertise".

 

For others, it's actually what's reasonable for the character at hand.

 

For example in this one- Cap's High DCV with bonuses for the Shield protects him against direct Flashes and Non-selective Area Effect ones (the most common) as much as it should- i.e. he's safe from anything that can't overcome his rather vast skill. Standard actions allowed by the rules to any character combined with his Combat Sense allows him to deal with the others.

 

Standard actions, such as aborting his phase to cover his eyes, allow him to shield himself, true. But isn't it feasible that Cap's reflexes are honed to such a degree that he instinctively covers his eyes, to the point where it does not cost him an action? I think it's perfectly reasonable.

 

The only reason to add a poorly reasoned Flash Defense power to all the above as you suggest is to power-game, or cope with a campaign world very different than the one Captain America was designed to actually exist in.

 

I've got literally thousands of Marvel and DC writeups that I and the members of my gaming group have done. If I'm going to play Captain America, then I'm going to use that particular writeup (our Cap writeup is still incomplete, however) and will play him against the villains that we also have written up. None of the foes Cap is likely to face have a Flash, so it's not a problem (as you said earlier, Flash isn't as common in the comics as it is in a Champions game). However, if I'm playing Captain Freedom, the Captain America ripoff, in a Champions game, you can bet your saddlebags that he's going to encounter lots of villains who have a Flash attack. Superfriends heroes who can count on the fact that their villains will never, ever shoot a gun at them don't need to buy resistant defenses at all. However, if I'm creating a character for use in a regular Champions game, you can bet I'll give him some Combat Luck, because I don't want him to die if some thug does roll well. Likewise, I see nothing wrong with Captain Freedom having some Flash Defense based upon his amazing combat reflexes.

 

It's just like a buddy of mine who is immune to the stare of Medusa. Why, you ask? Because, no matter what, he never, ever, looks a woman in the face (as long as they're a B-cup or larger). So he's got like 30+ points of Power Defense, only vs women, with the sfx "Hey, my eyes are up here." Comical? Yes. But it's definitely appropriate for certain genres. And it's also the best way to simulate the way Robbie works in-game.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

But isn't it feasible that Cap's reflexes are honed to such a degree that he instinctively covers his eyes' date=' to the point where it does not cost him an action? [/quote']

 

We're not going to agree.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

We're not going to agree.

 

I knew that before I posted. Perhaps my ideas will help other gamers, however.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I knew that before I posted. Perhaps my ideas will help other gamers' date=' however.[/quote']

 

Or harm them.

 

I sure the power-gamers love you.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Different GMs, different choices, but FWIW...

 

My beef with the reflexes as flash defense arbument is you wind up with mechanics that fail to meet the SFX.

 

Two flash grenades of different brightness (one doing 3d6 flash and the other doing 12d6 flash) does not mean one is quicker than the other so flash cannot cover his eyes quickly enough and if he does cover his eyes no amount of flash will get thru the shield.

 

What you are describing is more properly mechanically represented as a sort of missle deflection that only works vs flashes or somesuch, where, if it works, it counters flash.

 

It also gets into really sticky issues with Flash defense drains and SFX but thats really rare.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

My beef with the reflexes as flash defense arbument is you wind up with mechanics that fail to meet the SFX.

 

This is typically the case with 'cute' get around the issue builds like this.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Or harm them.

 

I sure the power-gamers love you.

 

I'm sure they do. They're my spawn, after all. But you should know, that power-gamers don't play characters without a justification for every type of defense.

 

That's the problem I have with people who religiously group Champions characters into "character classes". "No, a martial artist can't have Power Defense, and can only have Flash Defense if he has a set of shielded goggles." That just means a power gamer tacks the word "mutant" on to the beginning of his character description.

 

GM: "No, a martial artist can't have Flash Defense naturally."

Player: "Well, I'm a mutant."

 

My way allows for characters to not get screwed over just because the player wants to play a character without obvious protections from certain types of attacks. My Cap also has lots Swinging and Superleap, defined as bouncing from flagpoles, off the roofs of cars, and other acrobatic maneuvers. Could I simulate it with just a nice GM and a high Acrobatics roll? Yeah. But I have no guarantee that my GM will be nice, nor that I'll make my Acrobatics roll. Captain America does not have Activation on his Armor, even though his face is uncovered. That's because his Activation roll never, ever fails. He never gets shot in the face. All bullets automatically hit him in a place covered by his micro-chainmail armor. So when writing up Cap, that 5/5 Armor does not have an Activation roll.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I'm sure they do. They're my spawn' date=' after all. But you should know, that power-gamers don't play characters without a justification for every type of defense.[/quote']

 

Of course.

 

That's why the first and best reaction to a powergamer is to send them to a campaign that enjoys their presence.

 

And it's really easy to determine a power gamer. I can just look at the character sheet- make a couple of suggestions, and the response tells me all I need to know.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Different GMs, different choices, but FWIW...

 

My beef with the reflexes as flash defense arbument is you wind up with mechanics that fail to meet the SFX.

 

Two flash grenades of different brightness (one doing 3d6 flash and the other doing 12d6 flash) does not mean one is quicker than the other so flash cannot cover his eyes quickly enough and if he does cover his eyes no amount of flash will get thru the shield.

 

No, it means the 12D6 Flash was bright enough so that even though he moved his arm/shield/cape in front of it, he was still blinded somewhat. The attack may have been quicker, or it may have flooded the area or gotten into his eyes anyway. Light floods around the edges of the shield, and is bright enough that his automatic reflexes (5 points of Flash Defense) is not enough to stop all of it. It was much brighter than Cap expected. If he wants to be totally unaffected, he's going to have to cover up even more (and thus, sacrifice an action).

 

See, if I could draw, I could give you a really good explanation.

 

What you are describing is more properly mechanically represented as a sort of missle deflection that only works vs flashes or somesuch, where, if it works, it counters flash.

 

No, because that won't work against Area Effect attacks. Also, Cap doesn't need to use an action for it.

 

It also gets into really sticky issues with Flash defense drains and SFX but thats really rare.

 

Rare enough that I've never seen a Drain vs Flash Defense, ever on a character.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Of course.

 

That's why the first and best reaction to a powergamer is to send them to a campaign that enjoys their presence.

 

And it's really easy to determine a power gamer. I can just look at the character sheet- make a couple of suggestions, and the response tells me all I need to know.

 

I don't see "power gamer" as an insult. I've played with game masters like you, guys who have a set way they want to do things and don't plan on changing their viewpoint at all. I was in a long-running D&D game with a DM like that. It can be really fun, as long as you're willing to accept that particular guy's interpretation of everything. For superheroes, though, it's a little limiting.

 

As I said, I wouldn't allow any of this in a Western Hero game. I wouldn't allow it in Horror Hero. I wouldn't allow it in Fantasy Hero. But it is appropriate for some genres, especially superheroes. In comics, it's not at all uncommon for supers to be completely unaffected by the pathetic attacks of agents (you think that flashbang grenades will be the deciding factor if Captain America charges through a horde of HYDRA agents? No way). So giving them a few points of Flash Defense is perfectly in genre. It's just like characters can buy 50% damage reduction based on "always successful roll with the blow". Sure, you can abort your action and try and roll with it and all that, or you can buy a power that simulates the fact that your character is so good that they don't even have to roll--it's automatically successful.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I don't see "power gamer" as an insult. .

 

Nor do I.

 

However I don't play with them, and I consider their character builds to have nothing to do with concept and everything to do with the mechanics of the game.

 

 

 

For superheroes, though, it's a little limiting.

 

If you want to call basically everything in a mechanically consistent version of the Marvel Universe limiting... feel free. Whatever floats your boat.

 

 

In comics, it's not at all uncommon for supers to be completely unaffected by the pathetic attacks of agents (you think that flashbang grenades will be the deciding factor if Captain America charges through a horde of HYDRA agents? No way).

 

So I guess all those times that I ran Cap over those flash bang using Hydra goons in our games, all without a single point of flash defense was...

 

..what? A delusion perhaps?

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

My way allows for characters to not get screwed over just because the player wants to play a character without obvious protections from certain types of attacks.

 

What would lead you to connect "not having obvious protections from certain types of attack" when combined with "and so actually doesn't have the protections" with somehow being a character who will "get screwed"?

 

If a "cap clone" doesn't have obvious flash defense (and in fact doesn't work in flash defense period) why do you presume he will get screwed?

 

is there perhaps a house rule or understanding in your games which says "if your character doesn't cover every possibility, then the Gm will screw you!"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Not in concept

 

On the case of Mental DEF, as long as we are beating around that bush, I could easily see this as being something that is trainable. I would argue that most of the X-Men have at least some Mental DEF, as they have undergone significant training. However, this may be something that is a genre issue, as they are mentored by a "world-class" mentalist...

 

But I would also say that Mental DEF would not be out of the ordinary for a martial artist, for example; especially those styles that have a meditative art (Shaolin, etc) as well as the combative art.

 

Just as Flash Defense is buyable (sunglasses and earplugs, or even just a special helmet). Power Defense is kinda out there though, but you can buy it, but not at the hardware store.