Issues/concerns around Flash

[tesuji]

Re: Not in concept

 

Just as Flash Defense is buyable (sunglasses and earplugs' date=' or even just a special helmet). Power Defense is kinda out there though, but you can buy it, but not at the hardware store.[/quote']

 

Actually, given the incredibly huge variety of SFX that adjustment powers are used to represent, i have almost never seen simple "power defense" survive a "fits concept test" as is.

 

"gee, i am immune to undead lifd drains, itching powder, and my PDA is resistant to EMP, all for just a few cp! tight concept."

[Dust Raven]

Re: Not in concept

 

Actually, given the incredibly huge variety of SFX that adjustment powers are used to represent, i have almost never seen simple "power defense" survive a "fits concept test" as is.

 

"gee, i am immune to undead lifd drains, itching powder, and my PDA is resistant to EMP, all for just a few cp! tight concept."

 

Nothing personal, tesuji, but that mindset annoys me and rings of hypocracy. First, having a Defense doesn't make you "immune". Everone has Physical Defense, but they aren't immune to being hit by a train are they? Second, Power Defense isn't any different that Energy Defense in the impossibly diverse SFX that it covers. ED protets you from heat, all forms of radiation, sometimes cold and sound, magic flames, gamma beams, negabeams, lasers, microwaves, stun guns, consciousness dampeners, etc.... yet we only have a sinlge ED that covers everything equally. And we also have Power Defense that does the same thing. The only difference is that people aren't born with it, and it's a Power you have to buy seperately.

 

As far as a "fits concept", I've never had a problem with it. Power Defense genericly protects you from a forced change occuring in your character. A character that is protected from all such effects if fine, and character that is only protected from some of those effects, or protected by most but not all, can buy their Power Defense with a Limitatin just like the Human Torch does for his ED.

 

Of course, unless there was some reason that an individual's Power Defense would also protect equipment he carries (the PDA in your example), I'd require a small Limitation if there were a lot of EMP type weaposn in my campaign that utilized Adjustment Powers or other attacks versus Power Defense. If I was just using an RKA for EMP effect it wouldn't matter.

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Flash is rare enough in my games that I haven't had much opportunity to playtest it. The few times it was used (before I moved) it was dramatically effective. Effective enough that I decided it needed further testing.

 

One thing I don't like about FRED/5ER is the defense creep. I now have to concern myself with numerous defense types for force fields, force walls, and some other defenses.

 

The old method for flash defense made it too cheap, but the new method makes it too expensive. Its just too much.

 

I also have issues with the division of claristience and shapeshift into five separate sense groups (some trivial applications can become extremely expensive), but that's a separate issue.

[tesuji]

Re: Not in concept

 

 

Nothing personal, tesuji, but that mindset annoys me and rings of hypocracy.

hypocrisy... personal... nah never.

First, having a Defense doesn't make you "immune". Everone has Physical Defense, but they aren't immune to being hit by a train are they?

Dead on. mea culpa. in my fauxc-dialog-quote hyperbole, my language was imprecise and should have read resistant, not immune.

Second, Power Defense isn't any different that Energy Defense in the impossibly diverse SFX that it covers. ED protets you from heat, all forms of radiation, sometimes cold and sound, magic flames, gamma beams, negabeams, lasers, microwaves, stun guns, consciousness dampeners, etc.... yet we only have a sinlge ED that covers everything equally. And we also have Power Defense that does the same thing. The only difference is that people aren't born with it, and it's a Power you have to buy seperately.

We can certainly get into discussions about things like stun guns and conscouness dampeners, but "typically" i see those built as NNDs which bypass ED.

 

The other effects normally built with ED as a defense all serve one way or another the same role... they "burn" or otherwise "cook", "fry" "destroy" with energy the target. Whether the flames are from magic or nutane doesn't change how they affect the target.

 

Also, ED does not somehow mystically extend to cover stuff you carry. Your OAG shotgun wont be covered by your ED and when i shoot it, it gets hit.

As far as a "fits concept", I've never had a problem with it. Power Defense genericly protects you from a forced change occuring in your character. A character that is protected from all such effects if fine, and character that is only protected from some of those effects, or protected by most but not all, can buy their Power Defense with a Limitatin just like the Human Torch does for his ED.

Ok let me be clear, when i said "i have almost never seen simple "power defense" survive a "fits concept test" as is." i was NOT talking about limited to cover only certain SFX versions of POWER DEFENSE.

 

I was talking about "simple power defense... as is."

 

you know the single effect that

1. you can chose to turn on or off.

2. diminishes the effect of drugs/powers that affect your mind when it is reflected by "lower an attribute" writeups but not those where it applies its own effect (like mind control)

3. diminishes the impact of itching powder (dex/speed drain/suppress) and undead drains, and temporal lamprey distortion auras (area speed drain) and point singularity gravitational anchors (movement suppress/drain) all at once-it

4. Extends to cover your carried items and gear.

 

 

Of course, unless there was some reason that an individual's Power Defense would also protect equipment he carries (the PDA in your example), I'd require a small Limitation if there were a lot of EMP type weaposn in my campaign that utilized Adjustment Powers or other attacks versus Power Defense. If I was just using an RKA for EMP effect it wouldn't matter.

 

PK, so, your counter argument to "i have almost never seen simple "power defense" survive a "fits concept test" as is." seems to be that "if its neither "simple" or "as is" and is limited to keep its scope from being unreasonable, it would pass concept vetting."

 

and to that, i can only say...DUH! We are in agreement on that!

 

Specifically, if power defense were just like ED... if it did not automatically extend to your gear and if it did not cover a wide variety of effects which are not actually changes to your but changes to your interaction to the environment.... i would have much less problem with it.

 

But, based on the current model, and scope of things Adjustment/dispel etc are used for, i would much prefer the default PowD be limited to one sfx and personal only, letting focuses buy their own pow defense.

 

if that were the case, then IMO many more cases of "simple power defense... as is" would be able to easily pass a concept vetting.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

What would lead you to connect "not having obvious protections from certain types of attack" when combined with "and so actually doesn't have the protections" with somehow being a character who will "get screwed"?

 

If a "cap clone" doesn't have obvious flash defense (and in fact doesn't work in flash defense period) why do you presume he will get screwed?

 

is there perhaps a house rule or understanding in your games which says "if your character doesn't cover every possibility, then the Gm will screw you!"

 

No, actually I can count on one hand the number of times I've been hit by a Flash attack, and most of those were by fellow players whose grasp of tactics are on the same level as that retarded kid from Life Goes On.

 

"I'm going to spread my Flash and hit everyone!!! I made a poopie in my pants."

 

If I want to buy Flash Defense, I'm getting screwed if the GM says "No, because according to my incredibly nearsighted and narrowminded definition of what 'Flash Defense' entails, your character can't have it". Naked Ninja Master doesn't have obvious defenses against a shotgun to the groin, but he bought 9/9 Combat Luck that lets him keep his genitals if just such an occurrence pops up. But frikkin' Flash Defense is munchkin and cheesy? That's retarded.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

but he bought 9/9 Combat Luck that lets him keep his genitals if just such an occurrence pops up. But frikkin' Flash Defense is munchkin and cheesy? That's retarded.

 

9/9 Combat Luck is also munchkin and cheesy.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

9/9 Combat Luck is also munchkin and cheesy.

 

Yeah, whatever.

 

Other things Fox1 declares to be munchkin and cheesy:

10D6 Energy Blast

10" Flight

5D6 Entangle

25 Str

6 Speed

14 Ego

+2 OCV

Missile Deflection

[Gary]

Re: Not in concept

 

Sean, you did mention something about a blind HTH fighter being at more of a disadvantage than a blind ranged fighter when against targets who are at range. This should go without saying, as the HTH fighter is at a disadvantage to begin with. I had a single 125 point VIPER agent with a 10d6 blaster take down the team's brick (Flight 20" and DEF 30) in less than 2 Turns. The brick looked unbeatable, but kept taking KB and could only reach he agent with a full move maneuver that didn't have much chance of hitting. Having a ranged attack is powerful, and an advantage often overlooked and underestimated.

 

 

Huh? How the heck did a 10d6 blaster do enough consistent knockback to keep a brick with 20" flight away from him over the course of 2 turns? Odds are that he wouldn't even be able to do it for a single phase.

 

Not to mention that the brick sounds like he was played very poorly.

[Gary]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

9/9 Combat Luck is also munchkin and cheesy.

 

 

You're kidding right?

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

If I want to buy Flash Defense, I'm getting screwed if the GM says "No, because according to my incredibly nearsighted and narrowminded definition of what 'Flash Defense' entails, your character can't have it".

 

ahh the "if i dont get everything i want i am being screwed" logic.

 

gotcha.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

ahh the "if i dont get everything i want i am being screwed" logic.

 

gotcha.

 

No, please don't mischaracterize me.

 

I'm not asking for Desolid, Usable Against Others, Area Effect, Invisible (which I have seen on character sheets--boy, that's a nasty attack). What I'm asking for is frikken' Flash Defense. Yes, I'd smack the GM upside the head with a tire iron if he told me I couldn't buy my character resistant defenses because "it's not in concept for your martial artist". I'd say "Futhermucker, I decide what's 'in concept' and what's not." THWACK!

 

The issue here is not the GM having a problem with Flash Defense. The issue is the GM singling out my character and saying he shouldn't have it.

 

Of course, we've got a good Champions GM, and if he's not running Champs, I usually am. So it's not a problem with either of us.

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

9/9 Combat Luck is also munchkin and cheesy.

 

That would depend on the SFX and style of play. All constructs have to be considered in context.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

While we are getting off so heavily on restricting concept, why don't we require all Flash Defense to be bought through a Focus? Since that's what most Flash Defense seems to do, it seems reasonable to me to diallow anything else. Don't you think? After all, this system is all about restricting SFX and construction possibilities.

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

While we are getting off so heavily on restricting concept' date=' why don't we require all Flash Defense to be bought through a Focus? Since that's what most Flash Defense seems to do, it seems reasonable to me to diallow anything else. Don't you think? After all, this system is all about restricting SFX and construction possibilities.[/quote']

 

No, this system is all about using SFX to define the scope of what would otherwise be abstract mechanics. A genuine SFX, which is not to be confused with an excuse, always placed logical limits on a power. For instance, Captain Eye-Beams has flash defense because his the nature of his eyes, due to his laser vision. This flash defense logically protects him from intense light effects. It would not protect him from mace purchased as flash, or from a flash attack that was defined as bio-energy interrupting the processes of the optic nerve. If you make sure the SFX is really an SFX and not a broad, hand-waving excuse to buy spot defense (or anything else for that matter), you won't ever run into the problems being expressed. Personally, far too many gamemasters (and I'm primarily a gamemaster) focus too much on "how do I overcome my player's power constructs" than "how do I tell a good story." Beating your players defenses down isn't much of a plot.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

No' date=' this system is all about using SFX to define the scope of what would otherwise be abstract mechanics. A genuine SFX, which is not to be confused with an excuse, always placed logical limits on a power. For instance, Captain Eye-Beams has flash defense because his the nature of his eyes, due to his laser vision. This flash defense logically protects him from intense light effects. It would not protect him from mace purchased as flash, or from a flash attack that was defined as bio-energy interrupting the processes of the optic nerve. If you make sure the SFX is really an SFX and not a broad, hand-waving excuse to buy spot defense (or anything else for that matter), you won't ever run into the problems being expressed. Personally, far too many gamemasters (and I'm primarily a gamemaster) focus too much on "how do I overcome my player's power constructs" than "how do I tell a good story." Beating your players defenses down isn't much of a plot.[/quote']

Funny, but I think of SFX as being most important for defining concept and story, not supplemental game mechanics. It is true that some Powers define things in terms of SFX, but while that serves a useful mechanism for game balance, I don't see it as the primary focus. We could just as easily have defined Desolidification as not working against one particular kind of defense (such as PD, ED, PowD, FD, etc.), dropped NND in preference for AVLD, redefined Frameworks and Adjustment Powers slightly, and had just as balanced and flexible a system without any mechanical consequences for SFX. It wouldn't mean that SFX were unimportant. I think the beauty of Hero is actually how far it divorces mechanics from SFX, while still giving the GM creative leeway in allowing SFX to have minor game effects.

 

So, I believe GMs are within their rights to disallow particular SFX for a given Power, but I think they should use as criteria more broad distinctions such as how closely the, "believability," of the Power fits within the nature of the campaign. That means a light-sensitive fart field might work in a slapstick high humor game, but probably wouldn't fit in a gritty Marvel-type game (throwing a few unpronouncible sci-fi terms in to create a polarized gas cloud could very well fit, though). Personal qualms about how certain SFX should and shouldn't be built as Powers, though? That just feels stifling. If I want Flash Defense because my character has good reflexes (and that's perfectly, "realistic," enough and gritty enough for Bats, for example), then who cares if it doesn't meet a particular GM's notion of how closing my eyes or pulling my cape over my head should work?! It IS my character, and as a player I'd like a little room to be creative outside of one particular person's perspective.

 

I could offer another straw man: "Sorry Player B, you can't buy anything with the SFX of, 'armor,' unless you buy absolutely everything the, 'armor,' you describe could possibly provide you. I wouldn't even think of trying to buy any kind of powred armor!" Didn't someone just mention a 200-point spoon in one of these threads?

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

 

Personal qualms about how certain SFX should and shouldn't be built as Powers, though? That just feels stifling. If I want Flash Defense because my character has good reflexes (and that's perfectly, "realistic," enough and gritty enough for Bats, for example), then who cares if it doesn't meet a particular GM's notion of how closing my eyes or pulling my cape over my head should work?! It IS my character, and as a player I'd like a little room to be creative outside of one particular person's perspective.

 

On the flip-side: The GM cares. And it IS his game, and as a gamemaster (the one with the majority of the work load) he'd probably like the opportunity to ensure his game maintains internal consistency, versimiltude, and established tone. And, how is having to define a reasonable SFX within the design philosophy of the group limiting? If you are truly creative you should be able to come up with something. If you're an artiste and must be free to do whatever tickles your tuches no matter what then you either need to be running the game yourself(i.e., found your own gaming group, as the GM is often the core or founding stone of such groups), or start looking for a particular gamemaster whose philosophy of how the game works is more in line with yours.

 

I could offer another straw man: "Sorry Player B' date=' you can't buy anything with the SFX of, 'armor,' unless you buy absolutely everything the, 'armor,' you describe could possibly provide you. I wouldn't even think of trying to buy any kind of powred armor!" Didn't someone just mention a 200-point spoon in one of these threads?[/quote']

 

If its a straw man I don't need to respond to it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

On the flip-side: The GM cares. And it IS his game....

Then it sounds like this hypothetical GM places a little too much ego into his game and his control over character creation. With the kind of nitpicking that causes someone to deny a reflexive Flash Defense in a genre and setting that match it perfectly, the GM might as well create all the PCs him-/herself, because the player will never be able to come up with something the GM will be happy with.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

You're kidding right?

 

For the example given?

 

Of course not.

 

Tela Brown can have Combat Luck at 9/9. Run of the mill, dime a dozen Ninja Dude? No way. He can make do with 3/3 at best.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Then it sounds like this hypothetical GM places a little too much ego into his game and his control over character creation. With the kind of nitpicking that causes someone to deny a reflexive Flash Defense in a genre and setting that match it perfectly' date=' the GM might as well create all the PCs him-/herself, because the player will never be able to come up with something the GM will be happy with.[/quote']

 

I actually do create all the PCs myself.

 

Of course I do it based upon player input, considering what fits in the campaign and what doesn't, how it relates to the niches held by existing PCs, etc. etc.

 

I look very harshly on people who reach for powers (especially defenses) with lame (for the setting) justifications. Just read over the thread and you'll see the real reason behind 'reflex flash defense'- "I don't want to be flashed by agents. So what if the character I'm recreating in the comics are flashed, So what if such a thing would be very rare, so what if I have other ways of dealing with it even if it happens. I don't want to be flashed by agents".

 

Such a person isn't interested in running a character. That's a person interested in just being bad-as* in terms of game mechanics.

 

In a no point limit campaign such as mine, that has absolutely NO footing at all.

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Then it sounds like this hypothetical GM places a little too much ego into his game and his control over character creation. With the kind of nitpicking that causes someone to deny a reflexive Flash Defense in a genre and setting that match it perfectly' date=' the GM might as well create all the PCs him-/herself, because the player will never be able to come up with something the GM will be happy with.[/quote']

 

Like Fox1, I do create the characters with a great deal of player input. More because they don't want to bother than because I don't trust them too. I'm interested in solid constructs that fit the tone and tenor of the game. Nothing more. Nothing less. Primadonnas who insist I accept the lame justifications they scribbled onto a character sheet are free to start their own game.

[Gary]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

For the example given?

 

Of course not.

 

Tela Brown can have Combat Luck at 9/9. Run of the mill, dime a dozen Ninja Dude? No way. He can make do with 3/3 at best.

 

 

I believe C-- was describing the lightly defended highly skilled martial artist archetype as exemplified by people like Captain America, Batman, Lady Shiva, and Shang Chi. I can easily see MAs of this caliber having 9/9 combat luck. MAs from Wuxia campaigns especially, can justify this due to skill and Chi.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

 

I'm not asking for Desolid, Usable Against Others, Area Effect, Invisible (which I have seen on character sheets--boy, that's a nasty attack). What I'm asking for is frikken' Flash Defense.

Ok, i don't want to "mischaracterize" you again, so, let me say that this example you chose from among all examples you could have chosen seems to indicate that a GM turning down a power on a character because its too "nasty" is OK.

 

Well, from my experience, there are far more reasons than "its too nasty" to turn down powers and I don't see anything in the mismatch of SFX and mechanics your "shield block dim flashes even if they are area of effect from all sides but fail to shield block bright flashes even if they are from a single direction" that tells me the "i am being screwed by my gm if he wouldn;t allow it" is anywhere near valid.

Yes, I'd smack the GM upside the head with a tire iron if he told me I couldn't buy my character resistant defenses because "it's not in concept for your martial artist". I'd say "Futhermucker, I decide what's 'in concept' and what's not." THWACK!

and i would say "thanks for coming. Clearly we don't have compatable styles." at any player who had such an outburst at me during chargen. Problem solved. Now to pull out the waiting list of players...

The issue here is not the GM having a problem with Flash Defense. The issue is the GM singling out my character and saying he shouldn't have it.

Ok now you have something.

 

If your GM allowed Joey to take this "shield dodge flash defense" for a character with similar concept, but tells you your guy cannot take it, then you have a clear issue of GM favoritism. he is objecting to your, the player, having this "approved by him" power.

 

But, if the Gm wont let anyone take the shield dodge flash defense, then he's not "singling out your character", he's not "screwing you".

 

he has simply identified a sfx-power combo he doesn't want in his game. he doesn't feel, say, that flash defense with the shield block sfx is appropriate for his game. he might as well have said "and for our X-files game, i don't feel gliding with the sfx of gravity manipulation is Ok for a nurse, but for instance, i don't mind gliding with the sfx of "parachute" with the right lims and such." This is not "screwing you".

 

Of course, we've got a good Champions GM, and if he's not running Champs, I usually am. So it's not a problem with either of us.

 

Cool.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I believe C-- was describing the lightly defended highly skilled martial artist archetype as exemplified by people like Captain America' date=' Batman, Lady Shiva, and Shang Chi. I can easily see MAs of this caliber having 9/9 combat luck. MAs from Wuxia campaigns especially, can justify this due to skill and Chi.[/quote']

 

In my campaign, none of those characters have more than the Combat luck 3/3.

 

They don't have, you don't have.

 

Make do with 3/3 or get another concept. Bitching otherwise is exactly the same as bitching about a 60 point AP limit- find another game.

[schir1964]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

This appears to have boiled down to a completely different debate:

 

GM vs Player Preference

 

Basically, this debate grows out of the opinion of what makes for a good GM.

 

It results in two styles:

 

1) The GM is the ultimate authority over his campaign, and the players must abide by the rules he sets up. As long as the GM is upfront about the rules and what his goals are for the game, many players prefer this kind of GM since they are attracted either to the Genre being presented or the kind of game the GM runs in general. The Global Guardians Universe pbem is a perfect example of this.

 

2) The GM and Players are stock holders of the Campaign. The GM is simply the current leader of a cooperative effort to create a Genre/Game that everyone will enjoy. Everyone has a say on what rules are allowed and what rules are restricted, and so forth. Majority rules in this style, but each person may have a chance to GM or push the campaign in a certain direction at some point. Solo Hero pbem at Hero Central is good example of this style.

 

Depending on your opinion on which results in a "Good GM" will also influence whether the alternative results in a "Bad GM".

 

Keep in mind that both these perspectives are looking at the ideal GM and Players. No cheating or finagling by the players, and no Favoritism or Killer actions by the GM.

 

Just Food For Thought

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Ok, i don't want to "mischaracterize" you again, so, let me say that this example you chose from among all examples you could have chosen seems to indicate that a GM turning down a power on a character because its too "nasty" is OK.

 

Actually, that was a power the GM used on us. Just 'cause I've got a good group now doesn't mean that was always the case.

 

"WTF? What do you mean my attack passes right through him? It's friggin' affects desolid!"

"The attack goes right through him."

 

See, we didn't buy it Affects Real World. Stupid friggen' Matt. Stupid friggen' New World games.

 

Well, from my experience, there are far more reasons than "its too nasty" to turn down powers and I don't see anything in the mismatch of SFX and mechanics your "shield block dim flashes even if they are area of effect from all sides but fail to shield block bright flashes even if they are from a single direction" that tells me the "i am being screwed by my gm if he wouldn;t allow it" is anywhere near valid.

 

As I said earlier, I had to put down Really Really Big Man because a player didn't quite grasp the concept that "Just because I can build anything in Hero doesn't mean I should.

 

and i would say "thanks for coming. Clearly we don't have compatable styles." at any player who had such an outburst at me during chargen. Problem solved. Now to pull out the waiting list of players...

 

Ok now you have something.

 

If your GM allowed Joey to take this "shield dodge flash defense" for a character with similar concept, but tells you your guy cannot take it, then you have a clear issue of GM favoritism. he is objecting to your, the player, having this "approved by him" power.

 

But, if the Gm wont let anyone take the shield dodge flash defense, then he's not "singling out your character", he's not "screwing you".

 

he has simply identified a sfx-power combo he doesn't want in his game. he doesn't feel, say, that flash defense with the shield block sfx is appropriate for his game. he might as well have said "and for our X-files game, i don't feel gliding with the sfx of gravity manipulation is Ok for a nurse, but for instance, i don't mind gliding with the sfx of "parachute" with the right lims and such." This is not "screwing you".

 

It definitely comes down to "incompatible play styles". And as you can see by the posts of certain parties, even basic powers out of the book, recommended for certain character types, and used in official Champions writeups (*cough* Combat Luck *cough*) are often not available in their games. This is someone who never grasped the concept of the "non-powered Power". And it's someone I can game without.