Issues/concerns around Flash

[Silbeg]

Has anyone else felt that Flash might just be a little unbalanced? It seems, perhaps, too easy to remove a character from a battle with this power. Now, I am much happier with the balance in 5E/5ER than 4E (50 points of a power being nullified by a 5pt Defense was ridiculous!)

 

Now, I am not talking about small flashes (the 2-4D6 Flashes that many agents will use), but the big, main-power flashes (10-12DC). The small flashes are easily nullified with small amounts of Flash DEF (how many characters have their 5 Flash DEF Ray-Bans these days?). The big ones, though, can be nasty. This is particularly the case when the Flash hits multiple senses... specifically Sight and Hearing!

 

One of the characters in my game does have a major Sight + Hearing Flash, and we have noticed even the more "standard" Sight Flashes can be devestating. Particularly unusual for a power, Flashes will have more of an effect on a high-SPD character than a low-SPD, now that you are Flashed in segments, not phases.

 

Some ideas we have toyed with:

1. Change the adder costs. Add single sense for +5 pts, Sense Group for +10. This may get accompanied by Flash affecting a single sense to start with.
   
2. Allow a player to take a recovery to recover some/all of the Flashed phases. Not sure of the mechanism here... sort of looking for suggestions.
   
3. Allow "default" defenses on flash (such as aborting to shut eyes, cover ears, etc). This is a mechanism that has been around for a long time, but I don't believe exists in 5E. We were thinking that this would grant perhaps 5 Flash DEF (a bright enough light will still penetrate your covered eyelids, for example).
   

Has anyone else had issues with Flashes? As I said before, I am much happier with Flashes than they ever were in previous editions (in BBB they were much, much too underpowered to be useful, while in previous editions, the wonky rules made them hard to judicate, and probably over-powered with the automatic AE).

 

Thanks!

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I have no problems with flash all.

 

But that's because I keep a tight rein on everything anyone buys. Unbalancing stuff and stuff bought to unbalancing levels just doesn't get let into the game.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I have no problems with flash all.

 

But that's because I keep a tight rein on everything anyone buys. Unbalancing stuff and stuff bought to unbalancing levels just doesn't get let into the game.

What he said.

 

The last time Flash was used in our game (against one of our MAs, Cloud Dragon), the hero located his opponent by hearing (DCV penalties and all) and took the guy down with a Choke Hold over several Phases. He won his fight blind.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Like Fox1 we don't use too many flashes. They are potentially devastating and, I think, unbalanced compared to, for instance, entangle, which rarely slows an opponent down for more than a phase.

 

Mind you, the defence is pretty cheap (12 points makes you almost immune to the effect in a 60 AP game) compared to (say) power defence where you need 21+ points to avoid most effects (and an 6d6 INT drain can practically take down some characters in a single hit!) Also, in practice, a lot of flashes are area effect which cuts their duration if you stick to AP limits.

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion that balance in Hero (or anywhere) is illusuional and largely maintained by the application of consensus reality.

 

Maybe the solution would be (if it needs one over and above judicious GM oversight) to make flash a 10 point per 1d6 power again, but increase the cost of Flash Defence to 2 or 3 per point? That way even a 60 point flash would only be in effect for half a turn: still a long time in a superhero game, but far more manageable. Mind you, 6 segments in a Heroic game might only be one phase in practice, and 60 points is an awful lot to pay for that kind of effect.

 

So...back to flash effecting phases rather than segments? Only way to balance across genres!

 

Let's see...make Flash 15 to 20 points per 1d6, each 1 BODY rolled flashes the appropriate sense for 1 phase. Defence costs 5 points per point and the cost of adding a targeting sense group is (say) 20 points and 10 for a non-targetting group.

 

Fair enough?

[Mike W]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Well, I try to keep Flashes to 6 dice or less. And I try to make sure there is at least one guy on each battlefield that has a way around things. But don't forget that you can make PER roles against anyone in hand to hand range. Combat Sense, Sonar, and other targeting senses can be very helpful. There are a lot of ways around Flash if you think it through, but it can be a little unbalancing if you aren't careful because it is capable of significantly reducing an opponent's CVs, which in turn can result in them taking large amounts of damage.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion that balance in Hero (or anywhere) is illusuional and largely maintained by the application of consensus reality.

 

Strong agreement here.

 

Something simple like the typical campaign SPD can have a huge impact on the value of Flash and Flash Defense for example, as can other none system things like the number of characters on the battle map.

 

For my part, PCs have 2-4 dice of flash when it does occur (rather rarely). In my typical SPD = 4 campaign world that means flash works mostly as a type of 'block' and in the service of teamwork.

 

If a high dice flash was to occur, it would likely be on a villian and it would be his 'thing' that the players would have to overcome.

[Silbeg]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

But don't forget that you can make PER roles against anyone in hand to hand range. Combat Sense' date=' Sonar, and other targeting senses can be very helpful. There are a lot of ways around Flash if you think it through, but it can be a little unbalancing if you aren't careful because it is capable of significantly reducing an opponent's CVs, which in turn can result in them taking large amounts of damage.[/quote']

 

Actually, you can make non-targetting PER rolls at range, assuming the sense works that way. However, the character I am talking about also Flashes Hearing group, so the most common non-targetting sense goes away as well. This leaves smell (-5 PER mod off the top), and touch (which can't be used at range). Really hard for characters to react!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Am I the only one who thinks that every edition since third has nerfed Flash terribly?

 

Flash Defense is cheap enough that I can't really get worked up enough over how powerful Flash is.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Am I the only one who thinks that every edition since third has nerfed Flash terribly?

 

All depends.

 

If your campaign is a typical SPD = 4 like mine, 5th did nerf Flash. 10 points for 1d6 used to flash a character for 3 segments, now it's two.

 

If however your campaign's typically SPD = 7+, Flash has become more powerful.

 

Flash defense however is reversed, 5th nerfed it for my typical SPD 4 game while it well have increased in value in SPD 7 campaigns.

 

 

Flash Defense is cheap enough that I can't really get worked up enough over how powerful Flash is.

 

Doesn't matter if it's cheap or not if you're building to character concept and not to game mechanics.

[Silbeg]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Strong agreement here.

 

Something simple like the typical campaign SPD can have a huge impact on the value of Flash and Flash Defense for example, as can other none system things like the number of characters on the battle map.

 

For my part, PCs have 2-4 dice of flash when it does occur (rather rarely). In my typical SPD = 4 campaign world that means flash works mostly as a type of 'block' and in the service of teamwork.

 

If a high dice flash was to occur, it would likely be on a villian and it would be his 'thing' that the players would have to overcome.

 

I would agree that the "typical" flash is probably around 4-5DCs... though oftentimes this is AE or Explosion. This is easily overcome with the token Flash DEF 5... while the characters whose SFX merit a big flash will have the 10-12 DC... last week the group faced Utility and Mirage (with some additional help), and Mirage had set up with a 10d6 Flash in her pool (made a lot more sense with her than a damaging attack), so she could set up the agents and/or Thunderbolt II for the finishing blows.

 

Turned out this was what was needed to allow Mirage, Utility and Laser to escape. Thunderbolt wasn't so lucky, as Kid Comet (the team's flasher) was able to shut his vision (and hearing) down for 12 segments (a spectacular roll on just 7 dice!)... he ended up trying to flee with a move-through on a wall that KO'd him...

[Silbeg]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Am I the only one who thinks that every edition since third has nerfed Flash terribly?

 

Flash Defense is cheap enough that I can't really get worked up enough over how powerful Flash is.

 

Not sure I totally agree with that last statement... a 1 point DEF stopping a 5 point BODY producing attack is pretty much on par for the system... just that since Flash is a BODY only attack, it doesn't add damage geometrically like other attacks.

 

However, unlike 4E - a 50 active point Flash does have a reasonable chance of affecting most characters... since most don't have more than 5 Flash DEF ( possibly a legacy from older days?)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Not sure I totally agree with that last statement... a 1 point DEF stopping a 5 point BODY producing attack is pretty much on par for the system... just that since Flash is a BODY only attack, it doesn't add damage geometrically like other attacks.

 

However, unlike 4E - a 50 active point Flash does have a reasonable chance of affecting most characters... since most don't have more than 5 Flash DEF ( possibly a legacy from older days?)

 

...actually an extra 5 FD is part of what I spent the extra 100 points on

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Then people need to buy more Flash Defense. It's freaking cheap. What do you want? 5 points of defense to completely neutralize a 50 Active Point Power? As it is, 5 points of Flash Defense reduces the effect of 50 Active Points worth of Flash by on average 50%. Man, I'd love to have another Defense Power that efficient. Mental Defense doesn't do it, Power Defense doesn't do it, normal PD and ED, Armor, Force Field....

 

I have to admit, running the numbers like this, it's hard to say that Flash has really been nerfed; in prior editions, 6 points of Flash Defense would completely protect you, on average, from 60 Active Points worth of Flash.

 

Are characters are being taken down by 60 Active Points worth of any Power? Then they need more defenses against it. It's that simple. 5 defense against anything doesn't cut it in a 60 Active Point game. A guy with, say, 5 normal ED and no other defenses gets hit with 12d6 Energy Blast? Dude, he's out of the fight. CON Stunned on average at the very least (unless he's got 38 CON or more, in which case why does he only have 5 ED?) which means he's going to get hit again by the same Power and probably taken out.

 

It's not Flash's fault that people aren't buying enough Flash Defense.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

It's not Flash's fault that people aren't buying enough Flash Defense.

 

Once again, this option is not valid for people who are building to concept and not to the game mechanics.

 

I can always tell characters created for pure game power- they have all those cheap defenses against the exotic attacks.

 

 

Edit: on the other hand, the only time one is likely to see a game unbalanced by the exotic attacks is when people are building all their characters to the game mechanics and not to concept.

 

So it should be a self-correcting problem.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The complaint, as I see it, is that 50 Active Point Powers pretty much take out characters who have only spent 5 points on the appropriate defense. This is true for nearly every combination of attack and defense Powers in the Hero System.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

60 AP flash - you're flashed for 12 segments and have to get around without sight. How do you do that?

 

- good rolls in other senses (hearing, for example)

- Flash defense so the problem doesn't arise

- A compensatory enhanced sense

 

If not, you likely are not very effective for the duration of the Flash.

 

60 AP NND - take 21 STUN each phase until you fall over unless you have the defense (likely any one of the above three would be accepted as a defense to block an NND) If not, you're out (no sense rolls, no firing blind, no nothing) after three typical hits, maybe two depending on the character.

 

60 AP Mental Illusions - your friends are your enemies and your enemies are your friends - beats a 13 EGO on an average roll and applies -1 to his breakout roll. Until you make your breakout roll, you attack a friend by mistake.

 

Three exotic attacks. Three ways to take down a character without exotic defenses. Like most abilities, Flash is very powerful in the right circumstances.

 

PS: Darkness with personal immunity costs less, affects groups and doesn't need to hit your DCV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I was actually thinking of something related to this last night. I was thinking about the differences between 4ed. and 5ed., and wondering why Flash uses a completely different mechanic for duration than anything else. In a way, Flash is like a Drain against someone's sense power. If they actually bought an uncommon sense, we could even build an equivalent Drain (though this breaks a Metarule so it is just a conceptual tool, really). Even against normal senses, we could think about what it would take to Drain a sense, since the, "cost," of normal Senses (Groups?) is now given.

 

For example, I seem to recall that Normal Sight (or the Sight Group?) is worth 25 points (you get a 25-point Disadvantage for being blind). Sight is automatically Ranged, Discriminatory, and Targetting. Let's subtract the cost of Discriminatory for the moment, since Flash doesn't make the distinction, and treat Sight as if it could be Drained at its normal cost minus that of Discriminatory (25-5=20, I believe). It would thus take (on average) a 6d6 Drain (60 APs) to make someone immediately blind, and it would take 12 Turns (be default) for their sight to return. If we could somehow buy the Fade Rate up the Time Chart to Phases and then Segments for a like cost to buying it down the Time Chart, we could apply a -1/2 Limitation and make its Real Cost 40 (neglecting range, etc., for the moment), and the Drain could last for 12 Segments. With Flash, I can spend 40 points to blind someone for an average of 8 Segments (neglecting the Sight vs. Sight Group issue for the moment), but for 60 points I could only blind them for an average of 12 Segments (rather than 12 Turns).

 

I don't know if this is useful, but it sure was interesting to ponder. Why two mechanics? Hmm. Why doesn't movement increase exponentially? Maybe the same kind of difference. I don't know.

[Mike W]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Actually' date=' you can make non-targetting PER rolls at range, assuming the sense works that way. However, the character I am talking about also Flashes Hearing group, so the most common non-targetting sense goes away as well. This leaves smell (-5 PER mod off the top), and touch (which can't be used at range). Really hard for characters to react![/quote']

 

Yeah, I had problems with a character in my current group who did that, but after thinking it through I've found a lot of ways around it: Dive for cover, block/reflect if it is in a focus, additional senses like Sonar or Spatial Awareness, Flash Def, and the like.

 

As I said, Flash can be VERY powerful if you aren't careful controlling it. I'm thinking of allowing a REC to recover half of the Flash effect. So if you're flashed for 6 phases you can take a REC to reduce it to 3. Maybe Post-12 could also reduce it by one. But I haven't decided if I want to do that yet.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Ok so, i think i can say this...

 

Build your character with game mechanics of flash 5e in mind, and there wont be a problem.

 

build your characters without the game mechanics of flash 5e in mind, and there may well be a "problem".

 

Now, for some, these two statements taken as fact are clear indication there IS NO PROBLEM systematically.

 

But for some, these two statements taken as fact are equally clear indications that there IS a problem.

 

:-)

 

i will take an interim approach, if there IS a problem in GAME X, its not with the system, its certainly not points, but its with the GM.

 

Your adversaries are generally supposed to be challenging at varying degrees of challenge to the PCs. So, they should be built to those specs.

 

if your PCs were all "concept guys" who bought little flash and little flash defense and now you throw 12d6 flashes and things are breaking down, you have designed poor adversaries for this campaign. Shame on you.

 

If your PCs were built taking large flash attacks and you provided adversaries who are wasted by these, then you have designed poor adversaries for this campaign. Shame on you.

 

Flash (at whatever levels the PCs took it or at whatever levels your NPCs use it) will prove worth its points, whacky overpowered, or too weak to notice for its points based soley on how well you match up your NPCs to your PCs in challenges.

 

Points, costs, body mechanics or segments or average speeds wont in and of themselves handle any of this balance for you.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Let me quote this passage from the description of Flash on 5E p. 114 (don't have 5ER, but it should be easy enough to find under the heading for that Power):

 

"The GM may wish to allow characters who are prepared for a Flash to take defensive actions (covering their eyes with their hands, or something similar) which can reduce or eliminate the effects of the Flash."

 

If Flash has proven overly effective in your campaign this would certainly be a reasonable countering tactic, at the very least as a Held Action or a defensive Abort, if the character has reason to believe that an opponent will use such an attack against him. If a villain uses a Flash on a given hero(es) once, the victim should be anticipating it next time. Even if the effect of the Flash is reduced by such defensive measures, though, making a target waste Actions protecting himself would still make it a good tactical choice.

[Silbeg]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Thanks for the ideas, and the discussions, guys. I think the idea I like the best is to take a Recovery to recover 1/2 the flashed segments (post-Seg 12 cannot be used to do this). This recovery would only be used to reduce the duration of the Flash (1/2 the segments, or your REC, whichever is less).

 

I think that I will also be trying to use covering/averting eyes to be something like 50% Flash Reduction... it should reduce, but not eliminate the flash, I think.

 

On a related subject, I do rule that if you do not have an applicable sense (such as Radio group), then you are, by default, not affected by NND/AVLD vs that sense's Flash DEF. Yes, I know that this contradicts a recent ruling by Steve Long, but I also think that this eliminates certain cheese effects (though I could also rule that Radio Group Flash DEF is not common enough to base an NND/AVLD on).

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

On a related subject' date=' I do rule that if you do not have an applicable sense (such as Radio group), then you are, by default, not affected by NND/AVLD vs that sense's Flash DEF. Yes, I know that this contradicts a recent ruling by Steve Long, but I also think that this eliminates certain cheese effects (though I could also rule that Radio Group Flash DEF is not common enough to base an NND/AVLD on).[/quote']

 

I don't agree with your other rulings as I think the problem is one of your own creation.

 

However on this point we're in agreement. Long's ruling on this point was silly. In fact, the FAQ is such a walking diaster that I'm think a blanket- "The FAQ does not apply" house rule is in order.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I was actually thinking of something related to this last night. I was thinking about the differences between 4ed. and 5ed., and wondering why Flash uses a completely different mechanic for duration than anything else. In a way, Flash is like a Drain against someone's sense power. If they actually bought an uncommon sense, we could even build an equivalent Drain (though this breaks a Metarule so it is just a conceptual tool, really). Even against normal senses, we could think about what it would take to Drain a sense, since the, "cost," of normal Senses (Groups?) is now given.

 

For example, I seem to recall that Normal Sight (or the Sight Group?) is worth 25 points (you get a 25-point Disadvantage for being blind). Sight is automatically Ranged, Discriminatory, and Targetting. Let's subtract the cost of Discriminatory for the moment, since Flash doesn't make the distinction, and treat Sight as if it could be Drained at its normal cost minus that of Discriminatory (25-5=20, I believe). It would thus take (on average) a 6d6 Drain (60 APs) to make someone immediately blind, and it would take 12 Turns (be default) for their sight to return. If we could somehow buy the Fade Rate up the Time Chart to Phases and then Segments for a like cost to buying it down the Time Chart, we could apply a -1/2 Limitation and make its Real Cost 40 (neglecting range, etc., for the moment), and the Drain could last for 12 Segments. With Flash, I can spend 40 points to blind someone for an average of 8 Segments (neglecting the Sight vs. Sight Group issue for the moment), but for 60 points I could only blind them for an average of 12 Segments (rather than 12 Turns).

 

I don't know if this is useful, but it sure was interesting to ponder. Why two mechanics? Hmm. Why doesn't movement increase exponentially? Maybe the same kind of difference. I don't know.

 

That is interesting: in fact the whole flash thing had worried me to an extent as it penalises high SPD characters more than low SPD character, but thinking of it as a form of adjustment power (which does the same) makes it make (sort of) more sense.

 

BTW I know you get 25 disadvantage points for being blind, but building normal sight as a sense costs 37 points. Even if you don't agree that you need analyse (I think you do as yo don't need PER rolls for everything!) it is 32 points

 

Detect visual spectrum light (passive) 10 points

Discriminatory and analyse (10 points)

Range (5 points)

Sense (2 points)

Targetting (10 points)

 

If you were allowed to drain it you'd need about 8 or 9 dice worth, probably at least 2 hits with a 'major' drain power (say 5d6, 50 AP), but then it would stay drained for 6 turns!

 

That's a scary thought...

Targetting (10 points)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I don't agree with your other rulings as I think the problem is one of your own creation.

 

However on this point we're in agreement. Long's ruling on this point was silly. In fact, the FAQ is such a walking diaster that I'm think a blanket- "The FAQ does not apply" house rule is in order.

LOL. I couldn't agree more. It seems to me that the FAQ answers that make sense can usually be inferred from the rules in the book itself (5E), and the others are hogwash. Rep, for reading my mind.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The funny thing is, I've seen lots of references to "concept" characters, and how building a character into a concept doesn't call for any kind of defense against Flash. That's ridiculous. Take a look at some characters out there, and count up the heroes (not the supers, but the heroes) who don't have a defense against, or way to compensate for, losing a sense temporarily. Superman has super hearing, Spiderman has spidy-sense, Batman has Combat Sense, etc. An ususual sense or a heightned sense is one of the key aspects of a hero, or at least the superhero. Character's without this trait are by design vulnerable and shouldn't complain when that's taken advantage of any more than they should for being affected by a Susceptibility or Vulnerability.