Issues/concerns around Flash

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

It definitely comes down to "incompatible play styles". And as you can see by the posts of certain parties' date=' even basic powers out of the book, recommended for certain character types, and used in official Champions writeups (*cough* Combat Luck *cough*) are often not available in their games. This is someone who never grasped the concept of the "non-powered Power". And it's someone I can game without.[/quote']

 

There is nothing magical about official champion write-ups, there are many here who consider them crap.

 

Be it 30 Def M1A1, official rulings from the FAQ, Def values too low for group needs, or whatever. I'm not the only poster on this board who takes exception and runs their games to different standards. The "but it's in the book" is almost always the battlecry of the hardcore powergamer. It's what they live by.

 

As I said, calls for this sort of things come from people waiting to play the rules, not play a concept.

 

And I do use Combat Luck, any superhero and most heroes without 100% coverage resistant defense get it- at 3/3.

[Gary]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

In my campaign, none of those characters have more than the Combat luck 3/3.

 

They don't have, you don't have.

 

Make do with 3/3 or get another concept. Bitching otherwise is exactly the same as bitching about a 60 point AP limit- find another game.

 

 

Then you shouldn't have made a blanket statement that 9/9 was munchkin and cheesy. In many campaigns, 9/9 is perfectly legitimate.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Then you shouldn't have made a blanket statement that 9/9 was munchkin and cheesy. In many campaigns' date=' 9/9 is perfectly legitimate.[/quote']

 

I consider those campaigns munchkin and cheesy.

[Gary]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I consider those campaigns munchkin and cheesy.

 

 

Gee, what a surprise.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

There is nothing magical about official champion write-ups, there are many here who consider them crap.

 

Be it 30 Def M1A1, official rulings from the FAQ, Def values too low for group needs, or whatever. I'm not the only poster on this board who takes exception and runs their games to different standards. The "but it's in the book" is almost always the battlecry of the hardcore powergamer. It's what they live by.

 

As I said, calls for this sort of things come from people waiting to play the rules, not play a concept.

 

And I do use Combat Luck, any superhero and most heroes without 100% coverage resistant defense get it- at 3/3.

 

Blah blah blah. The book is the standard. It's the only published standard. It's the standard that everyone can buy and look at. Do I do things differently than is published in the book? Sure I do. I'll bet you everyone does, to a certain extent.

 

The simple truth is this. I have no reason to follow your standards, any more than you have to follow mine. Your standards aren't special at all. They're just the standards of some GM somewhere. Yours are no more important, special, or well-reasoned than mine, Gary's, or Steve Long's. And since you haven't published a hundred-plus characters (in fact, you haven't published any--I don't think I've ever even seen you post a full writeup on these boards), I have no reason to go by your standards at all. Go ahead and build your Captain America with an 18 Dex and 6 PD and ED (or however you choose to build him). Your game no more defines "munchkin and cheesy" than anyone else's.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I consider those campaigns munchkin and cheesy.

 

I consider your campaign to be wussy and filled with homoerotic undertones.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

in fact' date=' you haven't published any--I don't think I've ever even seen you post a full writeup on these boards.[/quote']

 

How funny. In ways you'll never even know.

 

No, I won't publish write-ups here. I can't for life of me imagine why I would.

 

 

 

Go ahead and build your Captain America with an 18 Dex and 6 PD and ED (or however you choose to build him). Your game no more defines "munchkin and cheesy" than anyone else's.

 

All else being equal, whatever game has the highest and widest array of powers/abilities always holds the "munchkin/chessy" ground. That's sort of the definition there guy.

 

Never said it couldn't be fun for those who like it, but it is what it is.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I consider your campaign to be wussy and filled with homoerotic undertones.

 

That's likely reportable.

 

I'll pass however... for now.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

That's likely reportable.

 

I'll pass however... for now.

 

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

How funny. In ways you'll never even know.

 

No, I won't publish write-ups here. I can't for life of me imagine why I would.

 

Careful. They swipe stuff and stick it in the 5th edition rules without giving you credit.

 

 

All else being equal, whatever game has the highest and widest array of powers/abilities always holds the "munchkin/chessy" ground. That's sort of the definition there guy.

 

Not really. I've played a Pre-Crisis DC Kryptonian. The game was definitely high-powered, but not munchkin or cheesy. Munchkin and cheesy have more to do with how the powers are constructed and how the characters behave then anything else.

 

If I were to build a Captain America clone, and I wanted him to be cheesy, I wouldn't even bother with Flash Defense. The true Munchkin knows when to buy defenses, and when to spend those points elsewhere. Flash Defense is last on the list.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Careful. They swipe stuff and stick it in the 5th edition rules without giving you credit..

 

Hardly. Fifth edition is moving in your direction, not mine.

 

Long loves cheesy builds.

 

 

 

 

If I were to build a Captain America clone, and I wanted him to be cheesy, I wouldn't even bother with Flash Defense.

 

From what you listed here, your Cap build is to Captain American what the Movie Daredevil was to his namesake.

 

Calling it cheesy and box office dud is being nice about it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Yeah for munchkin cheesy games! Can't they be fun?

 

I'm a power-gamer, at least at times. Do I come up with a concept and build the Powers, or come up with Powers then wrap a concept around them? Yes. Both. Depends on how the whim strikes me. Does that mean that the concepts are bad? No. Does that mean I don't put effort into the character as a character, rather than just a set of numbers? No. Does it mean the character is unbalancing, doesn't fit into the setting, makes the GM's life miserable, or detracts from the fun of the other players? No. Actually, I usually go out of my way to contribute positively and meaningfully to the campaign story. There are characters, however, which are built around the ideas of an interesting or min/maxed construct. Handled well by the player and GM, it can work beautifully.

 

I have to wonder, though, if terms such as, "power-gamer," (and even, "munchkin/cheesy") are being thrown around currently just to rudely and aggresively label people. Could we just quit it?

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Hardly. Fifth edition is moving in your direction, not mine.

 

Long loves cheesy builds.

 

What I mean is, I can flip through Killers, Conquerors and Crooks, and find things that were lifted wholecloth from posts made by myself and others back on the old boards. See Mentalla being pregnant.

 

 

From what you listed here, your Cap build is to Captain American what the Movie Daredevil was to his namesake.

 

Calling it cheesy and box office dud is being nice about it.

 

I have multiple Cap writeups. There's "Cap in his own book" writeup, where he's got 10D6 Luck, and gobs of levels, and where he's completely tricked out. That Cap is over 1000 points. This Cap does not play well with others--he's not supposed to. Then there's the "Cap in a team book", which is the writeup I'd use if he were appearing as an NPC. Yes, I would give this Cap some Flash Defense. Then there's Captain Freedom, a Cap ripoff who is designed to be as munchkin as possible. He doesn't get Flash Defense, because there are far more effective things I can spend my points on.

 

I'm a completist with my comic writeups. I try and mirror them as closely as possible, and that includes such things as "When Batman is shot, it will always hit him in the shoulder". I build them so they can perform as they do in the comics. So Cap gets Flash Defense and Combat Luck.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I'm a completist with my comic writeups. I try and mirror them as closely as possible, and that includes such things as "When Batman is shot, it will always hit him in the shoulder". I build them so they can perform as they do in the comics. So Cap gets Flash Defense and Combat Luck.

 

Hmmm... dim recollection... wasn't it miller (in Dark knight) who did the "there's a reason i have a target dead center on my chest, where the heaviest armor is" schtick with the bats?

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

So Cap gets Flash Defense and Combat Luck.

 

Cap doesn't flash defense to run as cap does in the comics. In the comics, he gets flashed.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Hmmm... dim recollection... wasn't it miller (in Dark knight) who did the "there's a reason i have a target dead center on my chest' date=' where the heaviest armor is" schtick with the bats?[/quote']

 

Roughly...

 

As I recall it it goes:

 

The reason I put a target on my chest is because I can't put armor on my head!

 

Hawksmoor

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Roughly...

 

As I recall it it goes:

 

The reason I put a target on my chest is because I can't put armor on my head!

 

Hawksmoor

 

yeah, somethin' like that.

 

so, has anyone emailed miller uet to let him know it should have been shoulder, not chest?

 

:-)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Not in concept

 

The other effects normally built with ED as a defense all serve one way or another the same role... they "burn" or otherwise "cook"' date=' "fry" "destroy" with energy the target. Whether the flames are from magic or nutane doesn't change how they affect the target.[/quote']

 

HACK COUGH SPUTTER

 

Don't do that when I'm drinking!

 

Let's see, what about cold, sonics and darkness blasts, just off the top? There's lots of others in USPD, but most could be interpreted as burning or destroying, or make as much sense against PD as ED.

[tesuji]

Re: Not in concept

 

HACK COUGH SPUTTER

 

Don't do that when I'm drinking!

 

Let's see, what about cold, sonics and darkness blasts, just off the top? There's lots of others in USPD, but most could be interpreted as burning or destroying, or make as much sense against PD as ED.

 

sonics i tended to make vs PD, same as kinetics and the like.

 

cold was usually ED, but in keeping the with sort of comicism of "cold energy" as opposed to the "cold as lack of energy" reality.

 

as for "darkness blast" well, thats so far outside of "anything based in reality" that your guess is as good and as bad as mine as to whether it "should be" against ED, PD, or be an avld against PowD or be an NND (or avld) with defense being "in a well lit area" and so forth.

 

But to be sure, i am certainly not arguing that someone, somewhere cannot define a power vs ed that makes the SFX for ED not make more sense than powD.

 

what i am saying is that ED as a power or as a "force field" element against the types of powers one most often sees it working against is much tighter an SFX concept ***TO ME*** than a similar POWER DEFENSE that works against the variety of things I see dispel, transform, drain, suppress, and their ilk used for (particularly given its normal automatic extension to objects which definitely seperates it from ED, which doesn't.)

 

now, of course, other mileage may vary and maybe they see EB vs ED and RKA vs ED (and the hand attacks) as being two powers which cover the scale of different effects and sfx that drains, suppresses, dispels, and transforms are used for.

 

not me, but as i said, sometimes i am wierd.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

yeah, somethin' like that.

 

so, has anyone emailed miller uet to let him know it should have been shoulder, not chest?

 

:-)

 

Miller is a hack. You put the bright yellow target in the dead center of your mass, because villains never miss what they aim at.

 

Point being, Batman never gets shot in the face. He gets shot somewhere where he can go "NNgghhh!" and keep fighting.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Cap doesn't flash defense to run as cap does in the comics. In the comics' date=' he gets flashed.[/quote']

 

Actually, I can't think of him ever getting flashed at all. The point, of course, is that we're not playing in the comics. We're playing in a game where a 12D6 Flash is well within most active point limits. Now, you may do all sorts of special things in your game, and that's fine--it's your game, so do what you want. But for Cap to behave as Cap does and operate in, say, the Champions Universe, he'll need Flash Defense. Since Cap doesn't get affected by Flash nearly as often as he would if he operated in a world with 12D6 Flashes and didn't have any protection, then he's got some Flash Defense. I don't see what is so hard about this.

[Guest C--]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Oh, Fox, I think I know what it is. I remembered you mentioning in another thread somewhere that you used to be in OKC, and that you knew Audi. If you're from this area, you probably gamed with George Moses and them. If that's the case, no wonder you keep tight control over your games.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I've seen him get flashed in the comics.

 

But for Cap to behave as Cap does and operate in' date=' say, the Champions Universe, he'll need Flash Defense. [/quote']

 

Now we AGREE.

 

He'd also likely need Danger Sense, Find Weakness, Extra inches of movement, more DEX, more SPD, and other abilities he doesn't have in the comics.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Oh' date=' Fox, I think I know what it is. I remembered you mentioning in another thread somewhere that you used to be in OKC, and that you knew Audi. If you're from this area, you probably gamed with George Moses and them. If that's the case, no wonder you keep tight control over your games.[/quote']

 

I don't think I was there with George Moses (although I may have visited), although I was with Audi.

 

The tight control is actually due to the fact that I run an unlimited point version of the Marvel Universe. More over, It's a 'good parts' version of the Marvel Universe without all the disgusting bad writer and editor decisions over the years.

 

So it's very much a conversion of rational versions of the Characters such that the best of their stories could be recreated in the game. Doing that while making sure the characters relate properly to each other (and niches are maintained) is the reason for the tight control.