Issues/concerns around Flash

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The funny thing is' date=' I've seen lots of references to "concept" characters, and how building a character into a concept doesn't call for any kind of defense against Flash. That's ridiculous. Take a look at some characters out there, and count up the heroes (not the supers, but the heroes) who [i']don't[/i] have a defense against, or way to compensate for, losing a sense temporarily.

 

I just converted a ton of characters to 5th from Marvel. Ones that are actually being ran by players. Other senses/abilities don't count- the question was concept WITH Flash Defense specifically, nothing was said about having/not having other means of dealing being blinded.

 

Shall we see going from the first part of the list?

 

 

Captain American- No

Quicksilver- No

Sunfire - Yes

 

Cyclops- Yes

Phoenix- No

Angel- No

Beast- No

Iceman - No

Banshee - No

Colossus - Yes

Emma Frost- No

Gambit - No

Nightcrawler - No

Psylocke - No

Storm - No

Wolverine - No

Jubilee - Yes

Shadowcat - No

 

 

So out of 18 characters I just converted, only four have Flash Defense.

 

And of those four, I will have to say that:

 

Cyclop and Jubilee only got it because the visor and sunglasses they wear should logically have it, not because I've seen it in the comics.

 

Colossus & Sunfire's mutant powers would indicate they may have it, not because I seen it in the comics.

 

So I'm actually on rather uneven footing with the 22% of the characters I did give it to.

[CourtFool]

Issues/concerns around the Flash

 

Wolverine does not have it but would he recover quicker from being flashed? I am just askin' is all.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around the Flash

 

Wolverine does not have it but would he recover quicker from being flashed? I am just askin' is all.

 

You could justify it I suppose although I've never seen it indicated in the comics.

 

I'll have to check 5th edition for the effects of DR on Flash (I gave Wolverine 50% damage reduction to represent the immediate in-combat effects of his healing factor), I recall them allowing it to affect NNDs and it may work towards that end here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around the Flash

 

Wolverine does not have it but would he recover quicker from being flashed? I am just askin' is all.

 

Wolvie doesn't need it, IMO. He can use Targetting Ranged Smell to operate effectively while blind.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around the Flash

 

Wolvie doesn't need it' date=' IMO. He can use Targetting Ranged Smell to operate effectively while blind.[/quote']

 

 

True enough. But it could matter under rare conditions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I just converted a ton of characters to 5th from Marvel. Ones that are actually being ran by players. Other senses/abilities don't count- the question was concept WITH Flash Defense specifically, nothing was said about having/not having other means of dealing being blinded.

 

Shall we see going from the first part of the list?

 

I though it was about the unbalanced effectiveness of the Flash Power... And something was said about having/not having other means of dealing with being blinded... it's just I'm the only one who seems to have said it (which was part of the point of my post).

 

Taking that list of yours, we can see who would be much bothered by a Flash, rather than who would have Flash Defense (which is what I believe would properly address the original issue). For most on your list I'd probably need a little help, as I'm not intimately familiar with all of the characters.

 

Captain American- Combat Sense

Quicksilver- (not sure)

Sunfire - Flash Defense

 

Cyclops- Flash Defense (visor)

Phoenix- (not sure)

Angel- No

Beast- (I think he has some heightened senses, which would increase his chance of making a nontargeting PER roll)

Iceman - No

Banshee - (I forget if his hearing is also enhanced)

Colossus - (not sure, but you said he might have Flash Defense)

Emma Frost- (no clue)

Gambit - A probability manipulation ability, possibly represented by Combat Sense

Nightcrawler - Possibly has Combat Sense, but also has a high CV to begine with and might still be effective against slow targets

Psylocke - (not sure)

Storm - Has Area Effect Powers that don't need targeting, just a general idea of where the target is

Wolverine - Definately enhanced senses, possibly targeting smell

Jubilee - Flash Defense

Shadowcat - No

 

 

There are 12 I'd say I know at least something about, and out of those 12, there are only 3 I believe wouldn't have any special way of dealing with a Flash Sight Group. Those three are also mutants from the era where Marvel took the turn of "normal people with one power" rather than actual supers.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I though it was about the unbalanced effectiveness of the Flash Power....

 

Originally, however a common and repeated suggestion was that characters should just buy flash defense- it's cheap.

 

And that was the comment "Concept" was meant to apply against - not other abilities. I'm with you on other abilities for the most part although they can be flashed as well, and on the cheap I may add.

 

 

 

 

And something was said about having/not having other means of dealing with being blinded... it's just I'm the only one who seems to have said it (which was part of the point of my post)

 

 

Bah. One person of no importance.

 

 

Going through the list just to correct a few things.

 

Captain American- Combat Sense

 

Sadly combat sense removes his ability to attack at range, so he's weakened. However Cap will almost always remain a threat until he's removed completely from a battle.

 

Quicksilver- (not sure)

 

Nothing, he's helpless.

 

Sunfire - Flash Defense

Cyclops- Flash Defense (visor)

Colossus - (not sure, but you said he might have Flash Defense)

Jubliee

 

As I said, I gave it to these characters but as far as I know nothing in the comics supports that.

 

But they should have it. I for example gave Scott's visor a number of useful tools. If you're going to have to wear huge goggles on your face, you should at least have them do some of the common goggle functions.

 

Phoenix- (not sure)

 

This is the classic green Phoenix of the early 100s Uncanny X-Men. While she has no natural flash defense, she could easily switch to a telepathic targeting sense.

 

And once flashed or aware of the threat- she could create flash defense for herself. Such is the life of one with a cosmic VPP.

 

She has in our games gone well beyond defending herself. At one point she provided the targeting sense flashed away from everyone else, and then telepathically projected the information to her entire team.

 

Takes enough points that she's no longer offensive, but the whole team was back into the battle.

 

Emma is capable of some of this as well (no way to give herself flash defense however).

 

Beast- (I think he has some heightened senses, which would increase his chance of making a nontargeting PER roll)

 

Sorry, no enchance senses. At least not from the era I wrote him up from, things have changed for him of late and I'm unaware (and uninterested) in the extent of that.

 

High INT however for what that's worth.

 

Banshee - (I forget if his hearing is also enhanced)

 

Active sonar, but that was part of the flash specified in the starting post of this thread (which also leaves out common non-special non-targeting PER rolls for that matter).

 

Gambit - A probability manipulation ability, possibly represented by Combat Sense

Nightcrawler - Possibly has Combat Sense, but also has a high CV to begine with and might still be effective against slow targets

 

No indication of any combat sense in the comics that I'm aware of. Both have high base CV, but half of high is still a real problem when you need every point just to stay in the battle (both lack high defenses).

 

I'm not aware of any probability manipulation ability for Gambit btw. I think you may have him confused with Longshot.

 

 

 

Psylocke - (not sure)

 

Could switch to Mind Scanning for targeting.

 

 

Storm - Has Area Effect Powers that don't need targeting, just a general idea of where the target is

 

I'm sure her friends in the AE radius would be happy about that...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Originally' date=' however a common and repeated suggestion was that characters should just buy flash defense- it's cheap. [/quote']

I just saw that suggestion once, and then it was jumped on by the "not in concept" police.

 

And that was the comment "Concept" was meant to apply against - not other abilities. I'm with you on other abilities for the most part although they can be flashed as well, and on the cheap I may add.

Like I said, just adding to the pot so we don't keep arguing over a single option and forget there are others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bah. One person of no importance.

At least I don't have a number after my name

 

Going through the list just to correct a few things.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Sunfire - Flash Defense Cyclops- Flash Defense (visor) Colossus - (not sure, but you said he might have Flash Defense) Jubliee

 

 

As I said, I gave it to these characters but as far as I know nothing in the comics supports that.

 

But they should have it. I for example gave Scott's visor a number of useful tools. If you're going to have to wear huge goggles on your face, you should at least have them do some of the common goggle functions.

Agreed. I'm not sure I agree with Colossus having Flash Defense, but I certainly wouldn't disagree either. The only thing I'll note is that most of the X-Men and related character really aren't superheroes, they are just normal people with a mutant power, and are in the story because that's what the story is about. It's not about heroics or crimefighting in the same way that the standard Champions game would be. It's the heroes that have super senses.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Phoenix- (not sure)

 

 

This is the classic green Phoenix of the early 100s Uncanny X-Men. While she has no natural flash defense, she could easily switch to a telepathic targeting sense.

 

And once flashed or aware of the threat- she could create flash defense for herself. Such is the life of one with a cosmic VPP.

Well, a cosmic VPP can go a really long way for providing defense.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Beast- (I think he has some heightened senses, which would increase his chance of making a nontargeting PER roll)

 

 

Sorry, no enchance senses. At least not from the era I wrote him up from, things have changed for him of late and I'm unaware (and uninterested) in the extent of that.

 

High INT however for what that's worth.

Same difference really.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Banshee - (I forget if his hearing is also enhanced)

 

 

Active sonar, but that was part of the flash specified in the starting post of this thread (which also leaves out common non-special non-targeting PER rolls for that matter).

I thought it was just a Flash Sight, with a generic mention of adding in addition Sense Groups. In any case it's not a common application of Flash that I've noticed.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Gambit - A probability manipulation ability, possibly represented by Combat Sense Nightcrawler - Possibly has Combat Sense, but also has a high CV to begine with and might still be effective against slow targets

 

 

No indication of any combat sense in the comics that I'm aware of. Both have high base CV, but half of high is still a real problem when you need every point just to stay in the battle (both lack high defenses).

 

I'm not aware of any probability manipulation ability for Gambit btw. I think you may have him confused with Longshot.

Gambit's powers are a mystery to this day. Based on several events in the comics, both the writers and the readers have said he "appears" to have a probability manipulation ability, though none of the writers have actually said he definately does, and only some of the various (official) rpg write-ups have it listed (or something like it).

 

In any case, both Gambit and Nightcrawler have fought effectively in the dark, which is essentially blind (though so are there opponents, but it seemed as if Nightcrawler wasn't affected at all, but then again, he's called Nightcrawler!).

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Raven Storm - Has Area Effect Powers that don't need targeting, just a general idea of where the target is

 

 

I'm sure her friends in the AE radius would be happy about that...

They know to get out of the way . Well, except for Wolverine, but he regenerates.

[CourtFool]

What are the real Issues/concerns around Flash?

 

I have not had a problem with Flashes in my games so I can not speak from experience.

 

It seems to me that the problem Silbeg has is one of his characters is unbalancingly more effective in combat than the other characters.

 

First, I think a Flash that targets sight and hearing should have a magnifying glass or stop sign. Generally characters are not allowed to have multiple NND attacks that have different defenses. I believe this fall within the same spirit as that law.

 

Second, I think the approach to this problem should come from a more generalized view. Let us not single out Flash but on the overall effect this is having; targets are easily being removed from combat. Silbeg obviously feels this is a problem but did not specify whether it was because the challenges he is presenting the PCs are not challenging or because this single PC is stealing the spotlight in combat.

 

I am hesitant to start altering rules for my own personal reasons. I believe solutions can be found within game and by discussing problems with the players. Therefore, allow me to offer some 'in game' solutions.

 

Challenges Not Challenging

1. Provide more opponents with Flash Defense. I believe this being suggested by many of the posts here.
   
2. Provide opponents with Drain Flash abilities.
   
3. Provide more opponents with other targeting senses.
   
4. Have opponents remove the flasher from combat. For example, Flash him first, snipe him or draw him away from his comrades.
   

 

PC Stealing Spotlight

1. Provide opponents that have particular weakness to other PC's abilities.
   
2. Opponents 'gang up' on the biggest threat, the PC.
   
3. Again, draw the PC away from his comrades.
   

 

In my humble opinion if you change the cost of Flash or limit its effectiveness as a rule the player will feel singled out and angry. No one really likes having their pet ability 'nerfed'.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I just saw that suggestion once' date=' and then it was jumped on by the "not in concept" police. .[/quote']

 

I saw it at least three times as I recall, but I'm not going back to count. Better things to do today.

 

 

 

At least I don't have a number after my name

 

True. But at least I'm not a critter noted for collecting dust through disuse

 

 

 

The only thing I'll note is that most of the X-Men and related character really aren't superheroes, they are just normal people with a mutant power, and are in the story because that's what the story is about.

 

I can't agree with that statement.

 

But we can user others...

 

Fantastic Four:

 

Reed Richards- No

Sue Storm - No

Human Torch - No

The Thing - No

 

Avengers:

 

Captain America- No

 

Thor - No/Yes (I have memories of "Zounds! My Eyes!, but it's hard to do a Thor who loses his sight when you point a flash light in his eyes so I give it to him)

 

Ironman - Yes

Hawkeye - No

Black Widow - No

Wasp - No

Goliath - No

Scarlet Witch - No

Warbird (Ms Marvel was such a better name) - No

 

This list could go on forever.... Everyone and his grandmother's dog has been an avenger.

 

 

Wonder Man - Yes (sunglasses at least).

Quicksilver - No

Hercules - No/Yes (same comment as Thor)

Black Panther - No

Black Knight - No

Beast - No

Moondragon - No

Hellcat - No

Falcon- No

Tigra - No

She-Hulk - No

Sub-Mariner - No

Quasar - No, but he likely could get it.

 

 

 

I thought it was just a Flash Sight, with a generic mention of adding in addition Sense Groups. In any case it's not a common application of Flash that I've noticed.

 

No, it was the specific point of the thread because it removed the only non-targeting PER roll most characters have.

 

As for it being uncommon...

 

I don't agree. Flash Bangs used by SWAT do Sight & Hearing. So does Jubilee's fireworks.

 

On the other hand Dazzler and Ironman are simple sight flashes.

 

Now Flashes themselves is somewhat rare, at least in the comics and in my campaigns.

 

 

Gambit's powers are a mystery to this day.

 

Well in that case, we can't say much can we? Mystery is a poor justification for powers IMO.

 

In any case, both Gambit and Nightcrawler have fought effectively in the dark, which is essentially blind (though so are there opponents, but it seemed as if Nightcrawler wasn't affected at all, but then again, he's called Nightcrawler!).

 

Nightcrawler has Nightvision- something also blinded by your base flash attack.

 

Gambit came along after my real comic days, but nothing in the Marvel Universe indicates enhanced senses. However his combination of high combat values, solid perception, and the fact his opponents were in the same conditions explains the example you gave.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What are the real Issues/concerns around Flash?

 

Challenges Not Challenging

1. Provide more opponents with Flash Defense. I believe this being suggested by many of the posts here.
   
2. Provide opponents with Drain Flash abilities.
   
3. Provide more opponents with other targeting senses.
   
4. Have opponents remove the flasher from combat. For example, Flash him first, snipe him or draw him away from his comrades.
   

PC Stealing Spotlight

1. Provide opponents that have particular weakness to other PC's abilities.
   
2. Opponents 'gang up' on the biggest threat, the PC.
   
3. Again, draw the PC away from his comrades.
   

In my humble opinion if you change the cost of Flash or limit its effectiveness as a rule the player will feel singled out and angry. No one really likes having their pet ability 'nerfed'.

 

These are excellent suggestion, CourtFool! The only thing I'd change is instead of ganging up on the PC (kinds singles him and and gives him the spot light as the same time, at least for a while), have the villains ignore him. It can be part of their tactics. They don't mind being deafened, but to avoid being blind, they just keep their eyes averted and their heads down, and beat up the heroes that can actually hurt them.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

True. But at least I'm not a critter noted for collecting dust through disuse

 

Oh yeah! Well at least I'm not a cheap Chinese import store!

No, it was the specific point of the thread because it removed the only non-targeting PER roll most characters have.

 

As for it being uncommon...

 

I don't agree. Flash Bangs used by SWAT do Sight & Hearing. So does Jubilee's fireworks.

 

On the other hand Dazzler and Ironman are simple sight flashes.

 

Now Flashes themselves is somewhat rare, at least in the comics and in my campaigns.

Not rare at all in my games. So far, there has been at least one hero with a Flash of some kind in each campaign I've run in the past 6 years. Crystallis had three (light beam, wide and narrow & a blinding light field), Descant (sonic scream), Artemis (magic arrow of blindness), Kora Blue (mini-flashbangs), Whispering Death (darken eyes spell) and Cyberbolt (flashbang rockets). And two of those are flashbangs, which I didn't much trouble with. Of course, VIPER agents now have Hearing and Sight Flash Defense standard, and most of the villians I use have some kind of enhanced or extrordinary sense. If the target doesn't, it usually isn't out, because a flashbang has to be Area Effect or at least Explosion, rich reduces it's dice even further than buying an extra Sense Group.

 

I can't really say about the comics, but I do think that such attacks are somewhat rare. They were typically used as a secondary ability of some other power (Jubilee and Banshee for example) or as a plot device McGuffin to rob a character of a sense for an adventure (which is really a Transform rather than a Flash, but same difference).

 

Gambit came along after my real comic days, but nothing in the Marvel Universe indicates enhanced senses. However his combination of high combat values, solid perception, and the fact his opponents were in the same conditions explains the example you gave.

 

No enhances senses, but definately an ability to be effective with limited use of his normal senses. He was "lucky" at the very least, even if he couldn't control it as power. In any case, his concept seems to call for Combat Sense, as a combination of luck and skill in HTH combat.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I can't really say about the comics' date=' but I do think that such attacks are somewhat rare. They were typically used as a secondary ability of some other power (Jubilee and Banshee for example) or as a plot device McGuffin to rob a character of a sense for an adventure (which is really a Transform rather than a Flash, but same difference).[/quote']

 

Exactly.

 

So if Flash attacks are a problem in a campaign, it's because the GM allowed them to become a problem in the campaign. It's not because they wouldn't be a problem in the comics themselves.

 

 

 

No enhances senses, but definately an ability to be effective with limited use of his normal senses. He was "lucky" at the very least, even if he couldn't control it as power. In any case, his concept seems to call for Combat Sense, as a combination of luck and skill in HTH combat.

 

Not convincing enough for me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Fantastic Four:

 

Reed Richards- No

Sue Storm - No

Human Torch - No

The Thing - No

 

Three of the four can manifest area effect attacks. Reed can operate at a fine level (though not overly useful in combat) stretching to contact most of his surrounding area. Torch could logically build flash def into his force field. Reed could whip up something for all four in the lab if need be (and would likely have these as standard equipment if Flash were used more frequently in the MU).

 

Avengers:

 

Captain America- No

 

Thor - No/Yes (I have memories of "Zounds! My Eyes!, but it's hard to do a Thor who loses his sight when you point a flash light in his eyes so I give it to him)

 

Cap has great combat senses and could support some PSL's to offset combat penalties for being blinded. Thor is God of Lightning - I suggest some resistance to bright flashes comes with that territory.

 

Ironman - Yes

Hawkeye - No

Black Widow - No

Wasp - No

Goliath - No

Scarlet Witch - No

Warbird (Ms Marvel was such a better name) - No

 

Goliath/Yelowjacket/Ant-Man/Giant Man generally had funky head or eyewear which could provide some eye protection.

 

Why would Wanda care if she's blind? She manipulates probability. The odds of Cap making a blind throw which takes a dozen bounces and clocks the Living Lightbeam are now 100%.

 

Wonder Man - Yes (sunglasses at least).

Quicksilver - No

Hercules - No/Yes (same comment as Thor)

 

No lightning rationale, but PSL's would make sense. He blidfolds himself in a late '80s graphic novel and operates quite effectively as his opponent keeps yapping.

 

Black Panther - No

 

Is it #114 when they fight the Troglodytes? Even in complete darkness, the Panther's senses enable him to fight at full effectiveness.

 

Black Knight - No

Beast - No

 

Beast has enhanced senses. Even "non-furry", anything a human could do, he could do better. Furry gained enhanced smell, unless I'm misrecalling.

 

Moondragon - No

 

Mental targetting senses.

 

Hellcat - No

Falcon- No

 

Link with Redwing means you need to blind them both to fully remove him from the fight.

 

Tigra - No

 

Enhanced sense of smell

 

She-Hulk - No

Sub-Mariner - No

 

In his earliest appearances, Subby was unfazed by Sue's invisibility because he could target using other senses (some type of sonar, I believe).

 

Quasar - No' date=' but he likely could get it.[/quote']

 

I'd call it part of his standard defensive field.

 

You leave a few notables out.

 

Vision's synthetic eyes may grant some flash defense - he's solar powered and uses eyebeams.

 

Clearly Captain Marvel/Photon should have flash defense.

 

Swordsman no; Mantis has enhanced senses and should operate effectively.

 

A full list isn't a time investment I'm making, but it seems a fairly decent portion of the Avengers have defenses or compensatory skills or senses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

To the specific problem character, any person or group expecting to come up against the PC's should either take precautions against Flash or, at least, try to take out the Flash character first (just as a PC team vulnerable to mentalists will target the mentalist first).

[Vondy]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

.

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion that balance in Hero (or anywhere) is illusuional and largely maintained by the application of consensus reality.

 

 

The cnetral pillar of the Hero System is the imperial power and majesterial wisdom of the game master. Without it the system fails.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Not convincing enough for me.

 

Read some of his comics. Not the X-Men... the Gambit comics.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The cnetral pillar of the Hero System is the imperial power and majesterial wisdom of the game master. Without it the system fails.

 

or becomes a simple wargame

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

A full list isn't a time investment I'm making' date=' but it seems a fairly decent portion of the Avengers have defenses or compensatory skills or senses.[/quote']

 

Sigh.

 

Just how many times do I have to say it. I'm concerned ONLY with pure and up front Flash Defense.

 

Dang, people can't read in these threads.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Read some of his comics. Not the X-Men... the Gambit comics.

 

No way, not spending he money on something I don't give a flying leap about.

 

Besides, you've listed your best example with information from there- and it frankly doesn't work for me.

[tesuji]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

or becomes a simple wargame

 

Sorry, but, i have played many a wargame and this would not be a "simple" wargame.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Sigh.

 

Just how many times do I have to say it. I'm concerned ONLY with pure and up front Flash Defense.

 

Dang, people can't read in these threads.

 

Feel free, but I fail to see any utility in the exercise. It doesn't matter whether a character who can compensate for being flashed in other ways has flash defense. Daredevil has no flash defense, but a sight flash isn't likely to slow him down.

 

From a purely gamist perspective, there's no need to buy flash defense unless a flash is going to hinder you. From a comic book perspective, if being blinded has no impact, then we'll never really know whether the character took full effect from that Flash or not.

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

Feel free' date=' but I fail to see any utility in the exercise. [/quote']

 

The utility was to respond to those claiming characters should buy flash defense as a common matter claiming characters in comics had such defenses- they don't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

The utility was to respond to those claiming characters should buy flash defense as a common matter claiming characters in comics had such defenses- they don't.

 

This does actually depend on the style of the game and one's interpretation of the comics. I would expect the entire ExTreme X-Men team had some flash defense due to those sunglasses/communicators they wore, for example.

 

I do agree that "everyone should buy this defense, it's cheap enough" converts characters from "concept characters" to "wargame/collectible card game".

[Fox1]

Re: Issues/concerns around Flash

 

I do agree that "everyone should buy this defense' date=' it's cheap enough" converts characters from "concept characters" to "wargame/collectible card game".[/quote']

 

And that have been my point from day one.

 

It's better (from a comics sim PoV) to control the amount and freq. of Flash up front than it is to pass Flash Defense around to every character in the game.

 

Same thing with Power Defense.