Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

[00Machado]

I tried posting this a few days ago to the HERO System questions forum, but didn't see it up.

 

Champions may be a better place for the thread anyway, so I'm trying a re-post here.

 

Flipping through an old Marvel Advanced box set from the late 80's that I came across the other day, I noticed three rule mechanics, and started wondering how to mirror the effects using HERO.

 

Does anyone have suggestions for the following?

 

1: Spending Karma to succeed at tasks: I was thinking maybe luck as currently defined in hero, or giving each character some luck points, or even just calling them Karma points and awarding them for super hero staple actions like rescuing innicents, defeating villains, etc.

 

2: Power stunts - Basically, pushing your power to new effects. Initially rarely, then more frequently until you can do that power stunt routinely after 10 successful attempts. For this, I thought about maybe letting players pay 1/5, or 1/10 the cost of a new power, or power advantage, that fits into an existing concept. After paying 5/5, or 10/10, they have in effect purchased the power for full time use. I also wondered if there might be something to consider in the mechanic for pushing. Any thoughts on this? I really like the idea of flexible impacts of a power, instead of absolute effects, and always knowing that you will either succeed, or shouldn't even bother trying because you can't succeed.

 

3: This one I really liked, and am the one I'm having the toughest time thinking through. In Marvel, you could have a power at a certain strength, and then make a skill roll to use that power to a certain effect. An example would be dampening sound in an area. If you have stronger sound dampening power in terms of raw strength, the ability check (could be skill check, feat check, etc, but Marvel had these checks tied to ability checks) would be easier. If your raw power level was weaker, you would need a better roll, but you could still attempt, and sometimes succeed at the same feat that someone with a stronger power could do, especially when considering the first mechanic of spending karma points to impact die rolls.

 

Well, that's it. Any suggestions are appreciated. I'm planning to start a campaign soon, and would like to be able to model some of this into the game from the beginning.

 

Thanks.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

For Karma, there's plenty of house rules about this sort of thing. Search for RDU Neil 's Luck Chit stuff for an example.

 

Power Stunts are covered under the "Power" skill, and lenient GM's.

 

Just compare power levels. For the sound dampening example, you could run it like so: ambient noise level is a +2 to perception - along comes Soundproof Man, with his Images, sound group, -6 to perception, only to make it quieter. His -6 goes up against the +2, now the area is net -4 quieter. Etc.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

To expand on the last point:

 

HERO has a much larger gradual range of results possible. Take breaking down a wall, for example. Remarkable attack vs. Remarkable material wall - yellow result needed. White or Green means nothing, Yellow or Red means you break the wall. All or nothing, no "almost". With HERO, your attack could get past the DEF of the wall and do a few points of BODY damage, reflecting your weakening the wall, but not destroying it, making it easier to finish off next shot.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

In general, it's not a great idea to try to translate one system's crunchy bits into another. Karma would be one of those. Power stunts are covered by the Power skill. I'm not sure what you're asking about in number 3.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

I support Supreme Serpent's suggestions regarding your second and third question. As for karma, this thread contains almost everything that's been posted to the boards about HERO approaches to this kind of mechanic. I don't remember the old Marvel Super Heroes game that well, but from what I recall and your description I suspect that the Action Points! system would model it best. You'll find a link to that on Post #6 from that thread.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

To buy points of Karma, here's an interestign option:

 

+X Overall Skill Levels, Expendable (-1).

 

As such, it can only be used when you have a Karma point, and you have to do something to get more.

 

How much X is would depend on how much you'd want Karma to be useful for.

[00Machado]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

To buy points of Karma, here's an interestign option:

 

+X Overall Skill Levels, Expendable (-1).

 

 

Cool idea. Thanks.

[00Machado]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

I'm not sure what you're asking about in number 3.

 

The idea behind the third mechanic is that the effectiveness of your power is not always clear cut.

 

Using the example fo the sound dampening power. In Marvel, if you wanted to dampen sound in a certain size area, you make an ability check of the ability tied to that ability (I think. It's been a while since I played the game too). In any case, the goal of what I wanted to achive was - if you roll well enough on your check, you can have your power effect a certain size area, or suppress a certain strength of fire, etc. If you don't roll high enough, you can try again next round. In Marvel, the roll would have to be better if your power was weaker, and could be less good of a roll for the same effect if your power is weaker.

 

In thinking about it further, I realise though that instead of an ability check to determine whether your roll is good enough, your damage roll also serves as a mechanic to determine whether you can have an effect of a certain strength or not. At least, in many cases.

 

I like the idea of the success being tied to a sort of skill, or gritty determination ability check, instead of raw dice of power effect though.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

Try a few of these

Heirax's HERO Characteristic Conversion (Str)

http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/cha.html

 

or

 

Champions Resources

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30707

 

PM me if you need more

 

QM

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

The idea behind the third mechanic is that the effectiveness of your power is not always clear cut.

 

Using the example fo the sound dampening power. In Marvel, if you wanted to dampen sound in a certain size area, you make an ability check of the ability tied to that ability (I think. It's been a while since I played the game too). In any case, the goal of what I wanted to achive was - if you roll well enough on your check, you can have your power effect a certain size area, or suppress a certain strength of fire, etc. If you don't roll high enough, you can try again next round. In Marvel, the roll would have to be better if your power was weaker, and could be less good of a roll for the same effect if your power is weaker.

 

In thinking about it further, I realise though that instead of an ability check to determine whether your roll is good enough, your damage roll also serves as a mechanic to determine whether you can have an effect of a certain strength or not. At least, in many cases.

 

I like the idea of the success being tied to a sort of skill, or gritty determination ability check, instead of raw dice of power effect though.

 

Well, in a lot of ways this sounds like the Limitation, "Requires A Skill Roll." The main difference would be that the more power you use (based on Active Points), the greater the penalty to your roll. So "more powerful" becomes harder rather than easier. You do very much have success based on a Skill check, though, if that's what you prefer. And if you use Standard Effect for whatever Power you apply the RSR Lim to, that would be the only random result.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

To buy points of Karma, here's an interestign option:

 

+X Overall Skill Levels, Expendable (-1).

 

As such, it can only be used when you have a Karma point, and you have to do something to get more.

 

How much X is would depend on how much you'd want Karma to be useful for.

Or better yet:

 

1 Charge, Never Recovers (-4)

 

Meaning you'd have to buy new ones each time...so you'd be permanently burning XP to get those, rather like the permanent expenditure of karma points. With a -4 Limitation, that makes it tempting but not crippling to use such a mechanic.

[00Machado]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

Regarding the third mechanic again...

 

I've been thinking about it further, and tried to bring it down to a reasoning from effect basis.

 

I broke down what I'm trying to achieve into two effects.

Effect 1 - Experience and skill in using a power determines success of opposed powers in addition to the dice of effect of each power.

 

Example - 4d6 of sound dampening (generalized to power A), suppresses 4d6 of sound (generalized to Power , based on a skill roll, rather than rolling 4d6 of effect for each power.

 

The idea might be to generalize dice of effect into damage classes (at least for powers that are going head to head):

 

If Silence Guy is trying to suppress the power of Noise Man, and they both have 4d6 of effect, resolve the action with a skill roll, rather than rolling 4d6 for each power. Furthermore, if someone has a higher Damage Class with their power, they can still be beaten by the person with the lower power (just like 3d6 of effect might roll higher than 4d6 - on occasion). But rather than leaving it up to pure chance, give the person with the lower DC a negative modifier to their opposed skill roll. Given enough skill levels, they still have a chance of winning. I suppose, you could consider not even rolling at this point, and handwave that any two opposed powers of equivalent DC of effect, resort to whoever has more skill levels. If neither person has skill levels they both roll an ability check. And if one person has fewer Damage Class levels in their power, give them a negative modified to their skill/opposed check of N (maybe 1, maybe more. Anyone have an idea?) per DC or 1/2 DC of difference.

 

It gives a nod to skill and experience in using your power.

 

Alternatively, it could be an ability check to simulate an iron will effort, instead of skill. I'd probably lean toward simulating the iron will effort through pushing, or via an opposed will roll only when their power skill rolls were tied, or soemthing. In either case, the point is that skill with using your powers matters.

 

And, building on the above, only targeted effects get an opposed roll. So if Silence guy with power A is trying to dampen 4d6 of noise. We'll call it someone's annoying radio. An effect (in this example, 4d6 of noise) that is not a targeted action (i.e. the radio is on, or ambient noise from the crowd in the subway, etc), gets no defense roll. Whereas Noise Man generating the noise that Silence Guy is trying to suppress means that you resort to opposed skill checks, taking into account a difference in damamge class as described above.

 

 

Effect 2 - You can tweak your area of effect at the cost of DC if effect.

 

If Silence Guy can suppress 4d6 of sound in a signle hex, then the effect I want is for him to be able to shift the area and do 3d6 of effect in a 1 hex radius, 2d6 of effect in a 2 hex radius, 1d6 of effect in a 3 hex radius, and I guess 1/2 DC of effect in a 4 hex radius. The power would reach it's limit at that point, and have 0 effect if Silence Guy tried to dampen sound in a 5 hex radius (not factoring in pushing the power, I suppose).

 

Now, one question I have, is how to do this. Should it be a VPP? A MultiPower with each slot being a different area and DC of effect? Also, does it make more sense to allow the effect to grow for 1" radius for 1 DC, 1" radius for 1/2 DC of effect, A doubling of radius (or 2 hexes of radius), for 1DC of effect, 1/2 your effect, etc. You get the idea. Basically, what should the trade off be in terms of DC of effect for N (being expressed either in multiples, or in pure inches) increase in radius. Perhaps the rules already cover the appropriate cost somewhere thus eliminating my need to think about it?

 

Opinions?

[00Machado]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

Try a few of these

Heirax's HERO Characteristic Conversion (Str)

http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/cha.html

 

or

 

Champions Resources

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30707

 

PM me if you need more

 

QM

 

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

[JmOz]

Re: Advice on converting some Marvel rule mechanics to HERO

 

It is EXTREMLY EASY TO ABUSE THIS FOLLOWING SUGGESTION:

 

Use the option that a character may roll his luck dice and count body for a # of rerolls

 

Allow in play for the character to buy the following power:

 

2 Luck 1d6: Independent (-2)

 

The point of Independent is similar to 1 charge never recovers but the nature of luck would dictatie that you should not use charges on it IMO