Mental Powers - another approach

[Doc Democracy]

I was reading Sean's thread on ECs and his last post focuses on one of my long standing bugbears with mental powers, you need 10 to 13 dice in your mental powers to be effective.

 

A corollory to that is that mental powers are an extra mechanic to the system for people to get their heads round.

 

I was thinking whether it might not be possible to use the existing damage mechanism for mental powers.

 

If you have 5D6 Ego Attack you cause cumulative STUN and the effect is reduced by mental defence. If you have 5D6 Mind Control you have almost no chance of doing anything substantial to your target.

 

I submit that it should be possible to attack your opponents INT, PRE or EGO cumulatively until it gets to -10, -20 etc. Opponents would recover based on EGO CV (get ECV back each phase recovered and post segment 12). This would possibly simulate someone struggling for control of another's mind and would also remove the breakout roll - but give a finite time for someone to recover their senses once the mentalist stopped influencing them.

 

Anyone used a system like this before. Thoughts by those that haven't?

 

At least it has the merit that it uses the same damage/recovery mechanic used in physical combat.

 

 

Doc

[RDU Neil]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I was reading Sean's thread on ECs and his last post focuses on one of my long standing bugbears with mental powers' date=' you [b']need[/b] 10 to 13 dice in your mental powers to be effective.

 

A corollory to that is that mental powers are an extra mechanic to the system for people to get their heads round.

 

I was thinking whether it might not be possible to use the existing damage mechanism for mental powers.

 

If you have 5D6 Ego Attack you cause cumulative STUN and the effect is reduced by mental defence. If you have 5D6 Mind Control you have almost no chance of doing anything substantial to your target.

 

I submit that it should be possible to attack your opponents INT, PRE or EGO cumulatively until it gets to -10, -20 etc. Opponents would recover based on EGO CV (get ECV back each phase recovered and post segment 12). This would possibly simulate someone struggling for control of another's mind and would also remove the breakout roll - but give a finite time for someone to recover their senses once the mentalist stopped influencing them.

 

Anyone used a system like this before. Thoughts by those that haven't?

 

At least it has the merit that it uses the same damage/recovery mechanic used in physical combat.

 

 

Doc

 

Lemme think about this one... as I don't particularly have a problem with the way Mental Powers work right now (except for the auto-break out rule).

 

Assuming your are saying... Mind Control fo 5d6, vs. mental defense.... 7 points gets through the MD... so the Ego is -7 (or -3.5? Like a drain?) and then next action... repeat. Get the Ego to -30 or -40... and the mind control takes effect?

 

ooooohhhh... I kinda like this... All mentalists in my games would have to be totally rebuilt if I used this (as many of them have 15 to 20d6 in their powers) but it has potential.

 

Still scratching my head on how the recovery works... but I do like the concept.

 

Repped!

[Guest C--]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

Haymaker means that mental powers can be useful at lower dice levels. Sure, you can't mind control someone to kill their family with a 5D6 MC. But you could easily Haymaker it and then put them in a disadvantageous position.

 

Mind Lad: (Haymaker) "Put... the gun... down." Roll

9D6 average is 32. Push to 11 gives you an average of 39.

 

Remember, you don't have to shoot for +30 every time.

[Gary]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I was reading Sean's thread on ECs and his last post focuses on one of my long standing bugbears with mental powers' date=' you [b']need[/b] 10 to 13 dice in your mental powers to be effective.

 

A corollory to that is that mental powers are an extra mechanic to the system for people to get their heads round.

 

I was thinking whether it might not be possible to use the existing damage mechanism for mental powers.

 

If you have 5D6 Ego Attack you cause cumulative STUN and the effect is reduced by mental defence. If you have 5D6 Mind Control you have almost no chance of doing anything substantial to your target.

 

I submit that it should be possible to attack your opponents INT, PRE or EGO cumulatively until it gets to -10, -20 etc. Opponents would recover based on EGO CV (get ECV back each phase recovered and post segment 12). This would possibly simulate someone struggling for control of another's mind and would also remove the breakout roll - but give a finite time for someone to recover their senses once the mentalist stopped influencing them.

 

Anyone used a system like this before. Thoughts by those that haven't?

 

At least it has the merit that it uses the same damage/recovery mechanic used in physical combat.

 

 

Doc

 

 

This may make lower dice Mental powers useful, but what about high level ones? Suppose the mentallist has 12d6 MC vs a 14 Ego target. First shot, +28. Second shot, +56 and the target is a puppet.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

That would make the higher levels of Mental Powers far too powerful. Best to use the Cumulative Advantage for smaller dice.

 

I'm currently working on my own method of using Mental Powers to represent certain effects I see if fiction, I'll see if I can find my notes and post the parts I can make sense of.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

This may make lower dice Mental powers useful' date=' but what about high level ones? Suppose the mentallist has 12d6 MC vs a 14 Ego target. First shot, +28. Second shot, +56 and the target is a puppet.[/quote']

 

Hmm. I hadn't done much number crunching, but the other side of this is that if the mentalist doesn't keep expending effort to keep the person under they will come round - with 14 ego they'd get 5 back every recovery...

 

I suppose with the current damage system at -58 they'd be at GMs discretion but if you made all mental recoveries at a recovery per phase then the 14 ego person would be reducing the effect by 5 per phase - or (for speed 5) 30 per turn - at least they'd get out of it soon enough.

 

I think that one of my problems with HERO has been mental powers - I've never really designed a mentalist that I liked (perhaps I just don't like mentalists) and I think part of that is the way they work - they don't inspire me at all. This just seemed a bit more granular in effect and possibly better than using the cumulative as it also provides the victim of the powers with an end to the power rather than a difficult break out roll.

 

I'll have another think about the numbers - possibly I might have to jig the costs of mental powers. If I made them 10 points per D6 then a 12D6 Mind Control would be 120 points - two attacks from that SHOULD make you a puppet.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

That would make the higher levels of Mental Powers far too powerful. Best to use the Cumulative Advantage for smaller dice.

 

I'm currently working on my own method of using Mental Powers to represent certain effects I see if fiction, I'll see if I can find my notes and post the parts I can make sense of.

 

That'd be good. I like seeing other ways of doing things - especially for mental powers...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

Assuming your are saying... Mind Control fo 5d6' date=' vs. mental defense.... 7 points gets through the MD... so the Ego is -7 (or -3.5? Like a drain?) and then next action... repeat. Get the Ego to -30 or -40... and the mind control takes effect?[/quote']

 

I'm not sure that I would actually reduce the EGO (like a drain, but use EGO to provide the basis for the effect). So A person's resistance to being mind controlled would be his EGO score (e.g 14).

 

If you hit them with a 5D6 Mind Control doing 7 points through their defence, then they'd have a resistance of 7 left (14-7). Next attack would take them to 0 - they'd feel their head being encroached upon - their will to resist your words fading away. Eventually they'd be far enough down that you could control them.

 

Their actual EGO score would still be 14 though.

 

It just occurred to me what this would mean if someone else wanted to mind control them. The logic of my proposal would suggest that their resistance is down and the other person would simply contest with the current controller in a MC vs MC roll - like STR v STR to wrest control. I think I like that but am not sure. As Gary and Dust Raven indicated - I should probably do some math on this.

 

 

Still scratching my head on how the recovery works... but I do like the concept.

 

Well, for the example above, for each phase that the victim does nothing or is not further controlled they recover 5 to their resistance (the value of their ECV). When the resistance goes above 0 they break free completely and before that they'd be able to resist more extreme commands.

 

I'm sure this could work - but I do need to give the costs some thought.

 

 

Doc

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I'm quite happy with the way things work now and see no need for change.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I'm quite happy with the way things work now and see no need for change.

 

I guess no one wants to force you to change but Sean encapsulated my problem with mental powers. (thought I'd quote from the EC thread for context)

 

Low point game mentalists are pretty ineffective, but that is the nature of HERO. There is a 'break point'. Generally, to be really useful in combat, you need to be able to overcome EGO+10 or EGO+20. Assuming an 'average' EGO of 15 that means 25 to 35 points of effect, which means 8 to 10 dice have some chance of being effective in combat. Mind you that's only about 30 percent of the time, due to breakout rolls. 10 more points of effect and you are really having an impact as breakout rolls are at -2, so 35 to 45 points, or 10 to 13 dice. Oddly, EGO rarely increases substantially for most players and they will either have Mental Defence or not.

 

Generally above 10 dice VERY DANGEROUS, below 10 dice substantially less so, and that rule holds pretty true over quite a large range of power levels (varies from campaign to campaign, of course. If every NPC has mental defence in spades, it throws the figures off). Normal attack powers scale much more effectively than mental ones, which are all or nothing. At some point they almost always become 'all'...

[tesuji]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

If you have 5D6 Ego Attack you cause cumulative STUN and the effect is reduced by mental defence. If you have 5D6 Mind Control you have almost no chance of doing anything substantial to your target.

 

I submit that it should be possible to attack your opponents INT, PRE or EGO cumulatively until it gets to -10, -20 etc. Opponents would recover based on EGO CV (get ECV back each phase recovered and post segment 12). This would possibly simulate someone struggling for control of another's mind and would also remove the breakout roll - but give a finite time for someone to recover their senses once the mentalist stopped influencing them.

 

Anyone used a system like this before. Thoughts by those that haven't?

 

Ok first thought was "uhhh, if you want a low level take control over time mental power mechanic, use CUMULATIVE. That way, each hit with a mantal power accrues towards your eventual goal."

 

Example: Nook nit in front of me but 3d6 Mind Control +1/2 cumulative +1/2 (72 pts max) is what... 30 ap. After defenses you accruse until you reach your goal for the command or 72 cp of effect, whichever you get to first.

 

So the low dice but gradually accumulating mental power thing exists now, you just have to advantage it to get there but the advantages are all book advantages.

 

So for a superheroic game, you could have low-dice-that-add-on easily enough.

 

But, no matter how you get to it, the conclusion I come round to is this...

 

In heroic or superheroic games, "normal defenses" tend to scale. A superhero is usually much tougher than a hero to take out with a blast.

 

In the same games, this is NOT normally true for odd attacks such as mental powers that key off characteristics. If fact, i don't know about you, but I often find that heroic games can tend to see higher stats in things like ego than many supers. (fewer things to spend pts on, skills and stats being more vtalm etc.) so it might even be harder to overcome EGO in heroic games... but the characters have fewer points and usually lower dice limits on these powers in heroic games.

 

Net result, they are less cost effective.

 

12d6 of Eb or MC is worthwhile in a supers game. 2-3 hits and the enemy is probably down (allowing for some made ego rolls for breakout)

 

6d6 eb in a heroic game... not a problem. Worth the cost. 2-3 hits and the bad guy probably goes down.

6d6 mind control in a heroic game... hardly worthwhile, not worth the cost. Multiple hits wont achieve a meaningful effect.

3d6 cumulative MC as seen above in a heroic game... better but not really that good...3-8 hits to get starting of meaningful results (EGO+10 to EGO+20)

 

the two effects did not scale the same way between the two power levels. MC takes a big drop in effectiveness.

 

One might consider very simply lowering the cost of MC et al to reflect their effectiveness in the campaign. If mind control at the HEROIC game level were priced at say 2d6 per 5 ap or maybe 3d6 per 10ap would you still think it was in error, too weak, not worth the cp?

[Zed-F]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

In addition to using cumulative, there is another mechanism to accomplish a similar effect to what you're describing that already exists. Stick an EGO drain in your mental powers MP. It won't cost much RP-wise since it's in an MP and will let you slowly whittle someone's EGO down to the point where your mental powers have a reasonable chance of working.

 

Of course if you want to go whole hog and make it ranged, invisible, and BOECV like a mental power, that will mean it will be a very small drain, but it's only a short hop from there to making it fully invis including effects of power...

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I guess no one wants to force you to change but Sean encapsulated my problem with mental powers. (thought I'd quote from the EC thread for context)

 

I don't see any of that as a significant problem.

 

Other powers have high required costs before significant effects can be achieved. Invisibility and Desolidification are the two clearest examples.

 

In addition to this flat min scores, nearly all abilities have a practical floor in a campaign. How useful is a 6d6 EB to your typical superheroic character for example? How useful is a HtH combat character with a DEX of 8 and only 1 skill level? Odds are excellent that the answer is not much.

 

At high power levels uncontrolled use of Mind Control, Mental Illusions, and Telepathy can easily be campaign breakers. Oddly enough, they also cause such havoc in the source material itself. Controlling people's minds is by defintion unbalancing. Which is why their uncontrolled use is typically only found in villians.

 

Most powers have a sweet spot in a campaign, that power level where they function as the players desire. See the Flash thread for another example of this. The key to solid campaign construction is to build around those sweet spots, not rebuild entire powers.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

Most powers have a sweet spot in a campaign' date=' that power level where they function as the players desire. See the Flash thread for another example of this. The key to solid campaign construction is to build around those sweet spots, not rebuild entire powers.[/quote']

 

Probably where our approach differs. In early editions of Champions that is exactly what I did. Now I'm more inclined to rebuild powers to fit the game genre that I want to play - and the toolkit approach of the current HERO is what pushed me to that.

 

For the Union of Outstanding Companions (my League of Extraordinary Gentlemen rip-off) I am slowly changing the rules base to make it what I want the game to be rather than a generic HERO game. I think I may be rebuilding mental powers along these lines but I'm not sure how. I'll have to sit down and define the exact effects that I want first.

 

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

12d6 of Eb or MC is worthwhile in a supers game. 2-3 hits and the enemy is probably down (allowing for some made ego rolls for breakout)

 

6d6 eb in a heroic game... not a problem. Worth the cost. 2-3 hits and the bad guy probably goes down.

6d6 mind control in a heroic game... hardly worthwhile, not worth the cost. Multiple hits wont achieve a meaningful effect.

3d6 cumulative MC as seen above in a heroic game... better but not really that good...3-8 hits to get starting of meaningful results (EGO+10 to EGO+20)

 

the two effects did not scale the same way between the two power levels. MC takes a big drop in effectiveness.

 

Thanks - some of the maths done for me. I love it when that happens

 

One might consider very simply lowering the cost of MC et al to reflect their effectiveness in the campaign. If mind control at the HEROIC game level were priced at say 2d6 per 5 ap or maybe 3d6 per 10ap would you still think it was in error' date=' too weak, not worth the cp?[/quote']

 

I think the thrust of my questing is not as much to do with the cost efectiveness (though obviously that is one of the symptoms) but the scalability. Your numbers demonstrate a lack of scalability to back up Sean's observations, I was wondering whether it would be possible to remedy that for the toolkit.

 

It is obviously campaign dependent on whether you feel the costs should change - I would like to see things like mind control much less absolute (you are often either successful or not successful) and more like other HERO powers.

 

Doc

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

I am slowly changing the rules base to make it what I want the game to be rather than a generic HERO game.

 

A very different approach indeed.

 

While I'm not shy about overruling specific procedure rules ('dive for cover', rapid fire modifiers, etc), I refuse to re-create powers, skills and the like.

 

There's a point at which you're no longer playing HERO System, and to me that point is where it becomes impossible to compare characters. A change of the kind you wish here (besides introducing what I would consider other highly negative effects of and by itself) is most definitely over that line.

 

 

Edit: typo'd a critical word- shoud have been 'negative'.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

There's a point at which you're no longer playing HERO System' date=' and to me that point is where it becomes impossible to compare characters. A change of the kind you wish here (besides introducing what I would consider other highly effect effects of and by itself) is most definitely over that line.[/quote']

 

I would say that I am playing the HERO system but possibly not a generic, immediately comparable form of the system.

 

I could import any HERO character to my game after some conversion work and could covert any of my UOC characters to be standard HERO ones. All of the changes I made to the game are identifiably HERO mechanics. I don't think the UOC characters would have as much character once they'd been genericised but they'd be playable in a standard HERO game and comparable to existing characters from the standard game.

 

I agree that my changes to mental powers would be taking things that bit further away but it would all come down to the mechanics working differently - I'd probably convert them in a standard game to use cumulative effect.

 

 

Doc

[RDU Neil]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

A very different approach indeed.

 

While I'm not shy about overruling specific procedure rules ('dive for cover', rapid fire modifiers, etc), I refuse to re-create powers, skills and the like.

 

There's a point at which you're no longer playing HERO System, and to me that point is where it becomes impossible to compare characters. A change of the kind you wish here (besides introducing what I would consider other highly negative effects of and by itself) is most definitely over that line.

 

 

Edit: typo'd a critical word- shoud have been 'negative'.

 

 

This is a big part of much of the theory we have talked about here.

 

To my mind (and in my sig) Doc is staying true to the Hero System Axioms... changing some Hero System at the mechanics level... and at the Game Rule level, might be distinctly different than a Hero Game.

 

IOW, he is still using the Hero System... but may no longer be running a Hero Game.

 

IMO... this is a result of the current, continued trend to focus more on Hero as a system/toolkit... than a game. This is my machine shop vs. a sports car bit. The more and more granular, generic, and deconstructed Hero has become... the more of a toolkit/system it has become... and less of an actual game you play/run. The GM has to create an actual game OUT OF Hero.

 

Some may stay close to the mechanic level established in the book... others may change at the mechanic level, or greatly change things at the Game Rule level. None of this is wrong... all of this is still Hero... if you accept that Hero is a system now... not a game.

 

You don't have to buy into this line of reasoning... just explaining where Doc might be coming from (don't want to speak for him either). Just saying that there has been quite a bit of discussion on these boards about "What is Hero?" and "At what point are you no longer playing Hero?" etc. My levels in my sig came right out of that discussion.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

Edit: typo'd a critical word- shoud have been 'negative'.

 

I was wondering what effect effects were but left it alone.

 

I am however _very_ interested in what you think the negative effects would be...

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers - another approach

 

It's an interesting approach. So then do you realistically have "EGO STUN" and EGO STUN = EGO? What about buying it up at 1:1 (essentially the same as "EGO only for EGO STUN)? That way your actual EGO could remain low but your resistance to attacks high, without having to boost MD (the traditional manner). Is EGO REC then a derived char as well, EGO REC = EGO/3? Should it be boostable?

 

It makes more chars but makes EGO combat wholly analagous to physical combat and simpler in at least some fashion. Of course you don't need the additional chars, but I suggest since you're de facto making them that perhaps it makes sense to go all the way with the concept.

 

What I really like is the idea of EGO REC and especially if we allow it to be bought up. Then I would eliminate the Breakout Roll and other such constructs. I do like the streamlining aspect. This, with Christopher Mullins' ideas on redesigning Adjustment Powers, might well make the game simpler without sacrificing flexibility whatsoever. Add on a Unified Framework...

 

What about multiple EGO hits to EGO STUN? I realize your original idea was not to expose this attribute as such and simply to use EGO as the basis very similar to how it is now, just tweaked for simplicity essentially. But to follow through and go a bit further, shouldn't an EGO STUNned character be more susceptible than one who is not? Shouldn't Mind Control be cumulative if so handled among even different characters? No fundamental objection on my part, conceptually, except that then we need some mechanism to arbitrate among conflicting commands. And then we seem back to the current Mental tracking for each character's influence. But that's not necessarily a bad thing at all. I'm just talking through consequences/ideas out loud, others may have something to add.

 

Anyway, it seems potentially viable. I'd expect that Mental Powers that are attacks would need to be somewhat recosted, maybe not a straightforward scaling but something like +5 for some of the more serious ones, such as Mind Control.

 

How do you see Mind Scan working in this scenario?