Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

[Supreme]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Indeed, most of the oxygen going in to Earth's atmosphere is produced by bacterial photosynthesis, is it not?

 

But I think that they would need water.

I thought that the majority of our Oxygen came from the algae in the oceans.

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

I thought that the majority of our Oxygen came from the algae in the oceans.

 

You are correct. Something like two-thirds of photosynthesis is performed by unicellular algae in the top few millimetres of the oceans. That is what I was thinking of, but I was quite wrong to confuse unicellular algae (which are eukaryotes) with blue-green bacteria (which are bacteria). My apologies.

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Not really. Even in Death Valley' date=' cut out a brick-sized and -shaped section of the surface, and pull it up. You'll find layers of green, red, and black bacterial colonies, in that order, top to bottom.[/quote']

 

I stand corrected.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

So that's why they had to blow up Alderaan!

it was a median class M world with a range of environments.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

I stand corrected.

It just so happened that I saw part of a program on the Science channel a couple of nights ago that showed that exact demonstration -- which is why I had the example so ready to hand. They were showing various environments (Death Valley, hot springs with boiling water, etc.) where bacteria thrived to put paid to the notion that life was "incredibly delicate", and that we shouldn't be surprised to find it in places like Europa.

[Inu]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

My problem (and I emphasise very definitely that it is my problem) with that approach is that when I go to fight the evil Empire I start thinking about what its strength depends on, what its weak points are, what elements of the environment can be turned away from its sources of strength and brought to bear against its weaknesses, that sort of thing.

 

If nothing about the setting makes sense, or if the setting it not detailed enough, or if it has inconsistencies taht make it resistant to analysis and extrapolation, I just get a powerful sense of cognitive dissonance.

 

IME. YMMV. A lot of people find that theirs does.

 

DMM. YDWYDWP. DLMPYO.

Eh, forget about science. Think genre! Would a British Commando in the 1940s think about how to turn the environment against the Germans?

 

The main reason I've never enjoyed a Star Wars game I've been in is because the other players have been too caught up in Scifi, or modern ways of thinking.

 

So just blast some stormtroopers.

[Inu]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Eh, forget about science. Think genre! Would a British Commando in the 1940s think about how to turn the environment against the Germans?

 

The main reason I've never enjoyed a Star Wars game I've been in is because the other players have been too caught up in Scifi, or modern ways of thinking.

 

So just blast some stormtroopers.

Eh, that bit about not enjoying many SW games sounded a bit much like a 'you're playing the game wrong' bit - that's not what I'm saying, just offering advice for another way of thinking about it.

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Eh' date=' forget about science. Think genre! Would a British Commando in the 1940s think about how to turn the environment against the Germans?[/quote']

 

Yes. All the time. Read the memoirs of these people.

 

As for modern ways of thinking, one of my father's cousins was a WWII commando, complete with DSO. I've spoken with him at some length (stayed with him for a week at his house in Wales, for instance). He's no cave-man.

 

And as for 'forget about science', it is about far more than science. It is about geography, economics, society, and politics. In the Star Wars universe, nothing actually works in any way. We have no idea of how big the Galaxy is, how many planets are inhabited, how anything is ruled, how anything is funded. No idea of scale or structure. Nothing. The universe has no substance to it.

[Inu]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Yes. All the time. Read the memoirs of these people.

 

As for modern ways of thinking, one of my father's cousins was a WWII commando, complete with DSO. I've spoken with him at some length (stayed with him for a week at his house in Wales, for instance). He's no cave-man.

Interesting. What kind of stuff would they do?

 

And as for 'forget about science', it is about far more than science. It is about geography, economics, society, and politics. In the Star Wars universe, nothing actually works in any way. We have no idea of how big the Galaxy is, how many planets are inhabited, how anything is ruled, how anything is funded. No idea of scale or structure. Nothing. The universe has no substance to it.

Of course it doesn't - it's a series of movies. I can think of very few films (or even books) which could be turned into games without much extra work. They're simply not intended as gaming material. The gaming material that IS available I generally find bad in that it either gives no details, or the details suck.

 

This is why it can be very difficult to run SW. (Though not as hard as it is to run Trek.) You need to make up a heck of a lot of stuff. I've been putting together files for my own SW game, and it's almost as much work as putting together a homebrew world.

 

But I wouldn't blame that on the films. Every minute they spend going into the intricacies of how things work is a minute they aren't spending on what's actually happening WITHIN those structures. We don't need to know how the Imperial government works in order to understand the Rebellion on-screen.

 

We DO need to know some in a game, however, yes. That's the GM's job. Or the RPG writer's job, but as we all know, licensed games generally suck. Too much 'this is how you play the movie' not enough 'this is how the world works.'

[Supreme]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

It just so happened that I saw part of a program on the Science channel a couple of nights ago that showed that exact demonstration -- which is why I had the example so ready to hand. They were showing various environments (Death Valley' date=' hot springs with boiling water, etc.) where bacteria thrived to put paid to the notion that life was "incredibly delicate", and that we shouldn't be surprised to find it in places like Europa.[/quote']

Though we're getting dangerously off-topic my problem with that model of thinking is that it ignores the fact that life here had a chance to develop in relatively comfortable regions before moving out into these less hospitable environments.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Though we're getting dangerously off-topic my problem with that model of thinking is that it ignores the fact that life here had a chance to develop in relatively comfortable regions before moving out into these less hospitable environments.

Actually, according to current theories it happened the other way around. The best guess right now is life started someplace like one of those undersea vents where the water is at boiling and is full of what we'd consider toxic chemicals, and branched out from there.

[Lightray]

As long as we have to make up the details of the Star Wars universe for gaming purposes, anyway, why not just have all those monoclimate ecologies be the end results of massive terraforming projects.

 

Some ridiculously resource-rich and efficient culture in the incredibly distant past built thousands and thousands of theme-park worlds: Desert Planet, Swamp World, Water World, Forest Planet.

 

They obviously built sophisticated self-correction and self-regulation into each of the ecologies, since they've remained the same all the time since.

 

Of course, Star Wars universe life sciences would probably be very confused about things like evolution and ecology. But then, what do they know about science in the Star Wars universe?

 

They think ships flying by in vacuum make "whooooosh" sounds.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Jungle World. Different enough from Swamp and Forest to warrant its own category.

 

All Mountain/valley world. Hard to find anything flat that isn't man-made here.

Valley World, it's a Valley World. Fer sure, fer sure.

[Lightray]

Valley World' date=' it's a Valley World. Fer sure, fer sure.[/size']

*blasts Supreme Serpent with Force lightning*

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Interesting. What kind of stuff would they do?

 

All kinds. The whole point of commmando operations was to attack weakly-defended vulnerable points, which of necessity depended on understanding where the enemy's strength was and what it depended on. Commando training was (and is) also full of survival training, which is all about what the ecological environment is like and how to exploit it.

 

Even Zorro robbed the alcalde when he was taking his graft out in secret to hand over to his banker. He didn't storm the alcalde's fort to get it. That's a thing you don't even think of unless the alcalde is set within a fairly well-understood system of objectives and opportunities.

 

Then there is T.E. Lawrence and his like (not, admittedly, a commando), who was into assimilating to Arab culture the better to manipulate the Arabs. And that bloke whose name I have forgotten who set up a commando outfit from Jewish settlers (and jailbirds) in Palestine. They weren't just into social engineering, they were also into how to survive and prosper in the desert.

 

"Conventional soldiers think of the jungle as a mysterious place full of lurking enemies. In my system, we do the lurking."

 

This is why it can be very difficult to run SW. (Though not as hard as it is to run Trek.) You need to make up a heck of a lot of stuff. I've been putting together files for my own SW game, and it's almost as much work as putting together a homebrew world.

 

But I wouldn't blame that on the films. Every minute they spend going into the intricacies of how things work is a minute they aren't spending on what's actually happening WITHIN those structures. We don't need to know how the Imperial government works in order to understand the Rebellion on-screen.

 

I do blame it when I run across things that can't possibly be made to work. When I was trying to set up my pre-movie game I had the gretest difficulty in in devising a Jedi Order that was small enough and wimpy enough for two Sith to wipe out in twenty years (to the point of Han Solo's ignorance and skepticism in Star Wars), and yet large enough and effective enough to guard law and justice in a galaxy for a thousand generations.

 

Its a basic problem with archetypal writing: it is incompatible with the basic SF notion that things might change in a fundamental way.

 

We DO need to know some in a game, however, yes. That's the GM's job. Or the RPG writer's job, but as we all know, licensed games generally suck. Too much 'this is how you play the movie' not enough 'this is how the world works.'

 

I couldn't agree more. However, my take is that the SW canon is riddled with really big contradictions, and therefore that the GM or the game designer is facing a particularly difficult problem in this case

[Inu]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

All kinds. The whole point of commmando operations was to attack weakly-defended vulnerable points, which of necessity depended on understanding where the enemy's strength was and what it depended on. Commando training was (and is) also full of survival training, which is all about what the ecological environment is like and how to exploit it.

 

Even Zorro robbed the alcalde when he was taking his graft out in secret to hand over to his banker. He didn't storm the alcalde's fort to get it. That's a thing you don't even think of unless the alcalde is set within a fairly well-understood system of objectives and opportunities.

 

Then there is T.E. Lawrence and his like (not, admittedly, a commando), who was into assimilating to Arab culture the better to manipulate the Arabs. And that bloke whose name I have forgotten who set up a commando outfit from Jewish settlers (and jailbirds) in Palestine. They weren't just into social engineering, they were also into how to survive and prosper in the desert.

 

"Conventional soldiers think of the jungle as a mysterious place full of lurking enemies. In my system, we do the lurking."

Okay, I think I'm getting the picture.

 

Unfortunately, I think that's a level of detail that doesn't exist in many places. I certainly wouldn't have any idea myself of how to manipulate earth's ecology to my favour, so I have less of an issue when I don't know how to manipulate an alien world's. But, being a game, I don't need to know everything - nor does the GM. Just has to come up with a couple of things.

 

Obviously, one can survive in the Dune Sea of Tatooine - the Sand People do it. So if the game's the type that goes into the details of how, then the GM has to make up a couple of things. It can always be assumed that things in the Dune Sea are just like, say, Death Valley, despite there being no particular 'oceans' on Tatooine. Not scientifically plausible, but what the hey.

 

We can also take what we already know - Luke's family farms moisture. So there is enough moisture around to turn into liquid and live on. Can small-scale vaporators (even low-tech, cobbled-together things) do the same job for an individual? Quite possibly.

 

But if no-one wants to get into those details, the GM, IMO, is free to say 'Roll survival. You succeed? Okay, you survive. Now, to plan the raid on the Imperial convoy...'

I do blame it when I run across things that can't possibly be made to work. When I was trying to set up my pre-movie game I had the gretest difficulty in in devising a Jedi Order that was small enough and wimpy enough for two Sith to wipe out in twenty years (to the point of Han Solo's ignorance and skepticism in Star Wars), and yet large enough and effective enough to guard law and justice in a galaxy for a thousand generations.

 

Its a basic problem with archetypal writing: it is incompatible with the basic SF notion that things might change in a fundamental way.

Things can only be impossible to work if you assume science is at the foundation to everything. In SW, it's not necessarily. Such an assumption can be made, in which case you're making even more work for yourself. If that is your goal, may I suggest: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/

 

Otherwise, I go back to my original advice: just play genre! Accept that it happens, move on. If you want to do something like mess with the ecology, you can make up small-scale things. Such as, say you want to cut off a garrison's water supply, to force them to send out a convoy to get water, so you can raid it. You can tell this plan to the GM, GM comes up with details. "Well, they hvae vaporators in the base, but that isn't enough for all their needs (drinking, cleaning, reactor cooling, etc). They rely on nearby outposts as well." So you can shut down the outposts, forcing them to send out a convoy which can then be raided, you take it over, ride into the base and infiltrate. Huzzah!

 

No need to know about the total ecology.

 

I realise this doesn't work for all gaming groups. But it's an option.

 

And, of course, SW is probably incompatible with that notion because it's not SF.

I couldn't agree more. However, my take is that the SW canon is riddled with really big contradictions, and therefore that the GM or the game designer is facing a particularly difficult problem in this case

Such contradictions aren't necessarily contradictions. As for the thing of two Sith wiping out all the Jedi, well... it wasn't just two Sith. Other contradictory statements or appearances can be reconciled.

 

Still, as with any fiction-to-game project, stuff must be added, stuff must be removed. Me, I'll be seriously lowering the frequency of rapid-fire blasters and the accurate, powerful explosive rockets from Episode 2. I'll also be overhauling the Senate some, as well as the precise nature of the interaction between Jedi and Government.

 

But thank your lucky stars that you're not trying this project on Star Trek.

 

Anyway, this has wandered off-topic. I'll let you have the last word.

[Rick]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

I've never had a problem thinking of starwars without the science, it never broke my suspension of disbelief. I just smile and enjoy it's quaint charm, and love the fact that I'm riding a tauntaun on an Ice planet, swinging a sword made out of light and flying around in ship that bank and go WHOOOOSH in a vacuum.

 

If you can't do that, then change it in your game. In my little corner of this galaxy far far away though we love it as is.

 

Geonosis: Arizona like desert.

 

Kamino: ocean world.

 

They aren't all one eco system: Naboo had mild swanps, Lake lands, Forrests, Mountains and grassy plains. It simply got more exposition.

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

I'll let you have the last word.

 

Thanks.

[Supreme]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Atoll world.

Is this basically an oceanic world with scattered islands?

Marsh world (as opposed to swamp world).

Not sure what the big difference here is. I don't know much about Marshes. I'm from California.

Bog world.

Good one! Spooky, dangerous, and with lots of peat.

Wheatfield world.

I can see an entire world terraformed just for agriculture. It's a checkerboard pattern of artificial lakes and croplands.

Grassland world.

Not sure what the appeal would be, but it makes sense.

Dry woodland world.

What is that exactly?

Mulga scrub world.

You just googled "climate types" didn't you...

Rocky mountainous world.

A place where they never had use for the wheel.

Hawkesbury Formation sandstone gorge-country world.

Badlands world?

Bristol quarry wolrd.

What? Did you get a degree in this stuff?

Suburb world.

Actually makes me shudder.

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Is this basically an oceanic world with scattered islands?

 

Yes, and additionally the islands are all made of porous limestone.

 

Not sure what the big difference here is. I don't know much about Marshes. I'm from California.

 

Swamps have trees, marshes have grasses and rushes and that sort of thing. Roughly speaking a swamp is a flooded forest, and a marsh is a flooded grassland. (Not really, but that is what it looks like.)

 

I can see an entire world terraformed just for agriculture. It's a checkerboard pattern of artificial lakes and croplands.

 

That's the shot!

 

Not sure what the appeal would be, but it makes sense.

 

Huge herds of bison. Wind-powered wagons. Horse nomads.

 

What is that exactly?

 

A biome in which the trees are scattered with stretches of herbs and grass in between them, rather than forming a continuous canopy and starving teh undergrowth of light (as in forest).

 

You just googled "climate types" didn't you...

 

Nope. Cast my mind back to 9th Grade Geography. The reason that I am concentrating on Australian landforms is that filming will be cheap now that the Star Wars films are being made in Australia.

 

Badlands world?

 

Sort of, except with trees and heath growing on it.

 

What? Did you get a degree in this stuff?

 

No, economics.

 

Actually makes me shudder.

 

Try living in Canberra sometime. Or most parts of Sydney.

[Curufea]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Try living in Canberra sometime. Or most parts of Sydney.

 

I don't think it's that hard

[Agemegos]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

I don't think it's that hard

It isn't hard. But it will excite a tremble from anyone who trembles at the thought of Subtopia, the suburb world.

[Supreme]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

It isn't hard. But it will excite a tremble from anyone who trembles at the thought of Subtopia' date=' the suburb world.[/quote']

I'm just thinking about the "keeping up with the Jones'" effect on a global scale...

 

What do people think about an all-Industrial planet? It'd be covered in smog except for pin-cushion needles of sky-scrapers and what-not pocking through the upper-most layers. This is especially true of the ring of tethered satellites around the equator.

[Badger]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

Of course, some of the worlds in Star Wars we wouldnt necessarily know for sure was mono-climate. (course this also may be assuming you missed looking at the planet from space )

 

But how much of an area did we really see of the surface of Endor for example. The area we actually were shown probably didnt amount to more than the size of Connecticut or so. Dagaobah, did we really see anything more than 10 miles away from Yoda's pad? Coruscant and Tatooine, well we might have seen quite a bit of them.

[Badger]

Re: Missing SW-Brand Mono-Climates

 

And Yavin did seem like it looked more as jungle/rainforest than a regular type forest. Maybe I was reading too much into it though.