Two Weapon Fighting

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No' date=' you can't. You can't use the same attack twice in a Multi-Power Attack (I spent part of the afternoon reading up on this, in addition to the other skills and maneuvers listed above).[/quote']

They aren't the same attack. Wielding two weapons in a heroic game can be likened to buying two identical Powers in a superheroic game. Besides, I believe I just ran across a FAQ entry or thread on the Rules Questions board about this a short while ago. Maybe I'll find it again tomorrow.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

They aren't the same attack.

 

Go read the description of Multi-Power Attack. Or don't: it's off-topic for this thread anyway. But this thread's pretty much served its purpose. "Thank you" to the two or three people who replied in a useful fashion.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No: Sweep is specifically for different targets (aside from a few exceptional cases); Two-Weapon Fighting isn't. They're explicitly different in that respect.

 

No, no they're not. The first sentence describing Sweep (in 5E):

"This Maneuver allows a character to use a HTH attack more than once in a Phase against a single target or multiple targets (provided they are all within HTH range)."

Emphasis mine. Now, I'm working out of FRED, so Revised might have changed it (although nobody so far has mentioned that it has). And I'm aware of your quoting the FAQ, but I must point out that he spoke in general terms (using words like 'generally', and specifically stating that the rules say you can sweep a single target). Finally, I call out the logic of it. What, logically, prevents me from hitting the same person more than once (whether it be with a pair of swords or a rapid flurry of punches)?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Methinks we're getting down to rules interpretation as influenced by personal preference. I don't think we're going to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction until and unless Steve Long comes in and says "This is the unequivocal last official word on the subject." Which I doubt he'll do. And lots of HERO gamers will just ignore him and do it the way they want anyway.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Go read the description of Multi-Power Attack. Or don't: it's off-topic for this thread anyway. But this thread's pretty much served its purpose. "Thank you" to the two or three people who replied in a useful fashion.

I don't have revised, but here is a quote from the old 5th ed. FAQ:

Q: Can a character who has multiple weapons (such as two blaster pistols) use them to make a multiple-power attack? Does it matter if the second weapon is bought through the “+5 Character Points doubles the items of equipment†rule?

 

 

A: Yes, he can; no, it does not.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Sweep

5ER, p397, paragraph 1: Sweep can be used against multiple or single targets.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting

5ER, p75, paragraph 4: Characters with Two-Weapon Fighting are subject to all rules covering Rapid Fire or Sweep. One exception: DCV penalty is -2 instead of 1/2.

It also describes explicitely that TWF is limited Ambidexterity and levels to offset Sweep penalties.

 

Multiple Power Attacks

5ER, p358-360: is extremely clear. In an example it explicitely points out that a character with 2 melee weapons can perform a MPA - at no penalty. It also points out that in campaigns that allow Rapid Fire/Sweep (which is the only way to use a single weapon/attack multiple times) you may want to consider limiting the effectiveness of an MPA (e.g. apply the sweep rules to MPAs). However, in a stock game MPAs make TWF worthless, completely, and without question.

 

So, let me offer you this solution. For Heroic games, combine all of the rules above into this:

 

Multipel Attack, Full Phase, 1/2 DCV, Cumulative -2 per attack after the first. Must be ranged or HTH but not both. Targets must be within range. Off Hand penalties apply.

 

Rapid Attack skill allows a Multiple Attack and TWF as a 1/2 Phase action.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting, Full Phase, DCV -2, ignore OCV penalty on first two attacks, no off-hand penalty.

 

If TWF still seems undervalued, allow TWFighters to perform a dual attack as a single attack roll in 1/2 a phase, and allow the "hold back an attack for a block" option as described in 5ER.

 

Bottom line, as written the MPA rules pretty much (except in the single weapon/attack mode instance) make Sweep/Rapid Fire unnecessary. They also make it such that no fighter in their right mind wouldn't have a second weapon (or shield) in their off hand - it is essentially an extra hit every time you hit with your primary attack.

 

I appreciate the amount of effort you have put into reviewing these issues bblackmoor, but if you aren't reviewing 5ER you really should.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Well, one thing Sweep/Rapid Fire (and thus TWF) do is make it possible to strike at multiple opponents. MPAs may make it less beneficial to use those maneuvers against a single opponent, but you cannot attack more than one target at all with an MPA.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I appreciate the amount of effort you have put into reviewing these issues bblackmoor' date=' but if you aren't reviewing 5ER you really should.[/quote']

 

H5R is what I am using as a reference, yes.

 

The questions for which the thread was started have been addressed to my satisfaction.

[courtassassin]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Our old gaming group just decided to start Champions (Dark champions this time) it has been like 15 years since anyone played (3rd and 4th editions).

 

 

This has been the #1 focus of confusion and potential rules lawyering (how nothing seems to change)

 

Two Weapon Fighting STACKS with Sweep, Rapid Fire, and potentially Multi-Power Attack. It is a talent (or skill can't remember off the top of my head) and sweep, rapid fire, and Multi-power attack are combat maneuvers.

 

So now where does Linked come into play? So basically it is a EASY way to totally blow away the AP concept.

 

Why is Linked a Disadvantage anymore!?! It is easily an ADVANTAGE of at least 1/2 because you can attack with two max AP attacks and bypass the disadvantages of the Sweep, Rapid Fire, or Multi-Power Attack.

 

Or worse you can buy two weapon fighting and each "weapon" is a linked max AP attack, buy some OCV levels, and perform Sweeps every combat. Or lets hope that the attacks are not autofire's and you also bought the Rapid Auto fire Skill and now you are getting a ridiculous amount of attacks per round.

 

 

And if you are doing this with a weapon and/or martial maneuvers you are only paying END for the basic STR (1 maybe 2 points), which used to be a balancing factor on Autofire/multiple attack powers.

 

Not saying that each individual piece is broken, but when you start stacking things it gets WAY out of hand. (and remember the lack of defenses in Dark Champions to boot)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Why is Linked a Disadvantage anymore!?!

 

It's way off the topic, but I'll answer anyway.

 

You have two powers, a 6 d6 Flash and a 6d6 Entangle, both bought straight (not in a Mutlipower). You can, any time you have an action, attack with your Flash, or attack with your Entangle, or attack with both you Flash and your Entangle (as a Multi-Power attack).

 

"Linked" is a Limitation because if your Flash is linked to your Entangle, you can never use your Flash by itself: you can only use it in combination with your Entangle, as part of a Multi-Power attack.

 

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

[proditor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It's way off the topic, but I'll answer anyway.

 

You have two powers, a 6 d6 Flash and a 6d6 Entangle, both bought straight (not in a Mutlipower). You can, any time you have an action, attack with your Flash, or attack with your Entangle, or attack with both you Flash and your Entangle (as a Multi-Power attack).

 

"Linked" is a Limitation because if your Flash is linked to your Entangle, you can never use your Flash by itself: you can only use it in combination with your Entangle, as part of a Multi-Power attack.

 

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

That's my understanding as well. To change one part of your example, make it a flash linked to an EB. There are plenty of times you might just want to use the flash component without the attendant possible body/property damage of the EB, but if you linked them, you have to suck it up.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It's way off the topic, but I'll answer anyway.

 

You have two powers, a 6 d6 Flash and a 6d6 Entangle, both bought straight (not in a Mutlipower). You can, any time you have an action, attack with your Flash, or attack with your Entangle, or attack with both you Flash and your Entangle (as a Multi-Power attack).

 

"Linked" is a Limitation because if your Flash is linked to your Entangle, you can never use your Flash by itself: you can only use it in combination with your Entangle, as part of a Multi-Power attack.

 

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Yes. In fact, if you can't use either Power by itself, both can take the Linked Limitation (though probably at different values). Note that Linked Powers might give you a very slight advantage in that Multi-Power Attacks might be disallowed in Sweeps or Rapid Fire attacks (up to the GM, but such a combination is officially warned against), but most GMs would probably nevertheless allow a Linked attack in these maneuvers, since the Powers are specifically designed to be used together.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Two Weapon Fighting STACKS with Sweep' date=' Rapid Fire, and potentially Multi-Power Attack. It is a talent (or skill can't remember off the top of my head) and sweep, rapid fire, and Multi-power attack are combat maneuvers.[/quote']

It doesn't exactly stack. Two Weapon Fighting is literally bought as CSLs with Sweep or Rapid Fire (plus limited Ambidexterity so the attacks can come from weapons in both hands without an off-hand penalty). I guess it now also changes Sweep/Rapid Fire's DCV modification from a 1/2 multiplier to a straight penalty. In any case, Two Weapon Fighting doesn't apply unless you perform a Sweep/Rapid Fire.

[courtassassin]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I apologize if this seems to be hi-jacking this thread but I see the whole problem as "getting to attack with multiple AP attacks in a single phase" which is what IMO this thread started with.

 

Yes, that is the logic that "they can only be used seperately", but that is only a disadvantage when it comes to non-attack powers, lets say a Teleport with an associated flash.

 

 

At BEST it is a Zero "advantage" to Link lets say an Entangle with a Drain. You trying to tell me there are times when I might just want to do 1? How many are those compared to the advantage of getting to do both? Back in 4th Linked was the only way to simulate Multi-Attack etc. So you are telling me that Linking two attack powers is worth a -1/2 when by doing this you are getting to avoid having to pay the Multi-Attack penalty.

 

Basically, my post is about that the whole Two Weapon/Sweep/Rapid Fire/Multi-Power Attack/Link is a potential GM nightmare as it is hard to tell someone "no" when it is in print that they "can" and that it is even backed up by a good character reason to have it.

 

My idea was that Linking attack powers, becomes more balanced (considering Multi-Powered Attacks in 5th) by becoming a disadvantage of around +1/2 or +3/4.

[courtassassin]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It doesn't exactly stack. Two Weapon Fighting is literally bought as CSLs with Sweep or Rapid Fire (plus limited Ambidexterity so the attacks can come from weapons in both hands without an off-hand penalty). I guess it now also changes Sweep/Rapid Fire's DCV modification from a 1/2 multiplier to a straight penalty. In any case' date=' Two Weapon Fighting doesn't apply [i']unless[/i] you perform a Sweep/Rapid Fire.

 

 

 

yes but its positive bonuses "stack" making the "multiple AP attacks" even more of a potential abuse situation.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

The thing to bear in mind is that the current limitation Linked is built with MPA in mind. It is a limitation in that you can only used the linked power with the main power, and that you have to pay the END to do so. I think it is worth a limitation.

 

If you apply Sweep penalties to MPA, then you need to increase the value of Linked as opposed to lessening it. If you impose a -2 to all multiple attacks, this makes Linked even more penalizing.

 

Sure if you do Entangle with Linked Drain you are applying two powers to the target, but the only way you can drain is if you entangle him, and pay the END for both powers. This is a limiation over being able to do them separately or opting to do MPA. So, MPA is like an optional link, whereas the Linked limitation is mandatory and therefor a limitation. (The sidebar for MPA in 5ER talks about this).

 

I'll restate my opinion that for Heroic games all multiple attacks are treated like Sweep/Rapid Fire with the exception of linked powers and for Superheroics the rules as stated apply (with all the subtleties they include).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

So you are telling me that Linking two attack powers is worth a -1/2 when by doing this you are getting to avoid having to pay the Multi-Attack penalty.

 

What "Multi-Attack penalty" are you talking about? There is no penalty for using a Multi-Power Attack. The only "penalty" is that it costs buckets of Endurance. (Multi-Power Attack is, in fact, one of the few good reasons to keep the Endurance mechanic in the game.) But the "Linked" Limitation has no effect on that.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

yes but its positive bonuses "stack" making the "multiple AP attacks" even more of a potential abuse situation.

 

I think you may have misunderstood how these maneuvers work. There is no stacking.

[atlascott]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Another interesting point is that' date=' if you are wielding two weapons in a heroic game, you can technically do a Multi-Power Attack with the weapons ([i']only[/i] on a single target) at no additional penalties without Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Rapid Attack.

 

That doesn't sound right. Aren't there penalties for off hand weapons?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

yes but its positive bonuses "stack" making the "multiple AP attacks" even more of a potential abuse situation.

 

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "stack." Two-Weapon Fighting reduces some of the penalties that accrue from using Sweep or Rapid Fire, at the cost of an additional 10 Character Points. You're paying extra to get an extra benefit. That also brings up an important point: all of these optional combat maneuvers - Sweep, Rapid Fire, Blazing Away, and Multiple-Power Attacks - impose penalties vs. standard Maneuvers, and/or have limited circumstances in which they can be used. They still have potential for abuse if not monitored carefully, but these restrictions help keep them from being overwhelming.

 

And that in turn brings up another point: all these Maneuvers and rules are explicitly listed as being optional, within the GM's purview to disallow. If your players want to use them and you think they'll be unbalancing in your campaign, you have the justification to tell them so.

 

Now, as to the Linked Disadvantage: You say, "Why would you not want to use both Powers in an attack since you want your opponent to suffer as much damage as possible?"

 

First off, consider the Endurance used for the attack. With a Linked Power you're always consuming Endurance for firing two Attack Powers instead of just one, whether you can afford to or not. Now let's look at your example, Entangle plus Drain. First off, Entangle is Ranged by default while Drain isn't. If you want them both to hit a target at range you have to pay more to buy Ranged for your Drain, or else you're wasting that part of your Power. If your target has enough Casual Strength to shrug out of your Entangle with no time lost, or enough Power Defense that your Drain is useless, again you've wasted that part of your Power. Entangle provides its Defense against any subsequent attack on its target (unless it has the appropriate Advantage), which can actually protect said target from your teammate's attacks.

 

Let's consider another common example, Energy Blast with a Linked Flash. If you want to just incapacitate someone with the Flash rather than risk injuring them, or your target has Absorption so that your EB actually makes them stronger, you're at a disadvantage using both together. And while Flash can't normally be Missile Deflected or Reflected unless the SFX justify it, Energy Blast normally can be.

 

Of course there's also the problem of you wanting to use a more surreptitious attack Power in a stealthy situation, which just happens to be Linked to a much louder and flashier attack.

 

Believe me, a competent GM can find lots of ways to make you pay for that Linked Disadvantage.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Aren't there penalties for off hand weapons?

 

Not if it's simply a special effect for a Power that you paid points for.

[atlascott]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It's way off the topic, but I'll answer anyway.

 

You have two powers, a 6 d6 Flash and a 6d6 Entangle, both bought straight (not in a Mutlipower). You can, any time you have an action, attack with your Flash, or attack with your Entangle, or attack with both you Flash and your Entangle (as a Multi-Power attack).

 

"Linked" is a Limitation because if your Flash is linked to your Entangle, you can never use your Flash by itself: you can only use it in combination with your Entangle, as part of a Multi-Power attack.

 

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

 

 

Does this mean that 5th Ed. has a combat maneuver called "multi-power attack" that allows you to 'attack' will more than one offensive power simultaneously? If so, I think it makes no sense, goes against superheroic genre, unbalances the points-system and AP in particular campaigns, and is redundant with other, older maneuvers. Ill look this up tongith after I get home...

[atlascott]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Not if it's simply a special effect for a Power that you paid points for.

 

So I can buy "Energy Blast Boy, with, lets say, a 60 point EB? And for 5 more points he has 2 of them? And can fire them both simultaneously, with no penalites whatsoever? Rather imbalancing, if true.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Does this mean that 5th Ed. has a combat maneuver called "multi-power attack" that allows you to 'attack' will more than one offensive power simultaneously?

 

It's not a maneuver, per se, but yes.

 

If so' date=' I think it ... unbalances the points-system and AP in particular campaigns...[/quote']

 

I am inclined to agree.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Does this mean that 5th Ed. has a combat maneuver called "multi-power attack" that allows you to 'attack' will more than one offensive power simultaneously? If so' date=' I think it makes no sense, goes against superheroic genre, unbalances the points-system and AP in particular campaigns, and is redundant with other, older maneuvers. Ill look this up tongith after I get home...[/quote']

 

Multiple-Power Attacks is indeed a new optional rule in 5th Ed., but it's not quite as unbalancing as it may sound: there are significant restrictions on its use. Whether it goes against superheroic genre is IMO a matter of personal interpretation; I know that lots of HERO gamers have been asking for an option like this for years, for help simulating everything from John Woo-style gunfighting to incredibly rapid attacks by speedsters like the Flash.