Two Weapon Fighting

[Guest bblackmoor]

So what's the deal with Two-Weapon Fighting? If I read the rules correctly, a character can basically double their speed for under 20 points. Am I the only person who sees a problem with this? Or am I misreading it?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Sweep, Rapid Fire, and Blazin' Away give pretty much everyone the abilty to attack more than once in a Phase. I don't think it's that abusive. (Unless you mean "double their SPD" literally, and it lets people make two moves, perform two combat actions of any kind, etc. in one Phase.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Agreed with Chris.

 

Two Weapon Fighting is simply a specialized form of Sweep maneuver. It was included in the game for those GM's who want the option of using such a maneuver in some genres (Martial Arts, Samurai, Fantasy-Swashbuckling etc) but don't necessarily want to use the Sweep or Rapid-Fire maneuvers unrestricted.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Two Weapon Fighting is simply a specialized form of Sweep maneuver.

 

Sweep attacks adjacent targets, with an arithmetically increasing penalty. Two-Weapon Fighting can hit the same target twice. They're completely different maneuvers.

[Nevenall]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Sweep attacks adjacent targets' date=' with an arithmetically increasing penalty. Two-Weapon Fighting can hit the same target twice. They're completely different maneuvers.[/quote']

 

Just to set the record straight you CAN use Sweep to attack the same target twice. And multiple targets just have to be in hand to hand range.

Autofire does have those restrictions though.

 

I should disclaim that this is according to 5ER. Which makes it pretty clear.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

As Nevenall says:

 

Sweep has been changed in the 5th Edition. It can now be used to attack multiple targets or the same target multiple times. (or multiple targets, multiple times, if your OCV can handle it)

 

Note that this addition was in the orignal 5E. It was not introduced in the Revised edition.

 

This is a change to the 4th edition version of Sweep which could only attack multiple targets. Rapid Fire did not exist in the 4th edition, the Autofire advantage was used for this purpose...

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Just to set the record straight you CAN use Sweep to attack the same target twice.

 

No, you can't: at least not normally. There are exceptions, like multiple disarms against people carrying multiple weapons, or sweep grabs against creatures with extra arms, but I'm talking about stuff like that. I am talking about normal combat. What other combat maneuver lets you hit a single target twice in one action with the campaign's maximum active point attack?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Also, Two Weapon Fighting can attack more than twice, however it accrues Sweep penalties as normal after the first two strikes (-2 OCV for 3 strikes. -4 OCV for 4 strikes. -6 OCV for 5 strikes etc)

 

Two Weapon Fighting is merely limted Ambidexterity (removes the -3 OCV penalty for off-hand weapon use) and +2 skill levels, only to remove the penalty for Sweep/Rapid-fire.

 

I am aware that a slight change was made to Two Weapon Fighting in the Revised edition. Where as in the 5E, TWF has the same penalties as Sweep and Rapid-Fire (takes a full-phase and 1/2DCV) however in the Revised edition, the 1/2DCV was changed to a -3 DCV penalty instead (which is worse than 1/2DCV if your DCV is 5 or less)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

"A Sweep generally applies to two or more targets and involves the use of a single Maneuver/power, though the rules have optional provisions for Sweeps involving multiple Maneuvers/Powers. The rules do allow for Sweeps against a single target, but these are rare and generally involve things like Sweep Grabbing multiple limbs or Sweep Disarming multiple weapons." -- Steve Long, Hero Games FAQs: Combat And Adventuring

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Two Weapon Fighting is merely limted Ambidexterity (removes the -3 OCV penalty for off-hand weapon use) and +2 skill levels' date=' only to remove the penalty for Sweep/Rapid-fire.[/quote']

 

No, it's not: it's that, and it allows a character to make an addiitional attack in a single action against a single target using an attack at the maximum power level of the campaign.

 

Ambidexterity doesn't do this.

Sweep doesn't do this.

Autofire doesn't do this.

[fbdaury]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No' date=' you can't: at least not normally. There are exceptions, like multiple disarms against people carrying multiple weapons, or sweep grabs against creatures with extra arms, but I'm talking about stuff like that. I am talking about normal combat. What other combat maneuver lets you hit a single target twice in one action with the campaign's maximum active point attack?[/quote']

 

Multiple Power Attack lets you do it and with no penalties on the roll either, unlike sweep. Two Weapon Fighting, as mentioned in the book is simply a modified form of Ambidexterity and 2 penalty skill levels vs. sweep or rapid fire penalties.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Multiple Power Attack lets you do it and with no penalties on the roll either.

 

I don't really know much about "Multi-Power Attack". Does it, like Two Weapon Fighting, allow you to make multiple attacks at the campaign's maximum attack point value on a single target in a single phase? If so, how does the point cost for Multi-Power Attack compare with the point cost for Two Weapon Fighting?

 

(And please stop bringing up Ambidexterity, Sweep, and Autofire. None of these do what Two Weapon Fighting does.)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Yes it does.

As does Rapid fire. Which is a ranged variation of Sweep, mechanically. And the only requirement for a MPA is that you have the powers to perform it with.

And I think that rthe reason people keep bringing up sweep is that in practice and application, Sweep has in fact become the default "Attack more than once, at full power" ability. Talents and superskills are now built in a variety of places to take advantage of the sweep mechanism to reflect multiple attacks, and most posters on the board, and most written expamles from various genre books are mostly universal in adopting the Sweep/Rapid Fire mechanism as the means of conducting multiple attacks. Period.

I might suggest that you adapt your thinking a bit to the new 5th edition paradigm... charcters can attack at full power more than once per phase.

Its just how the system is now. It took me a while to wrap my brain around it, but it really does get easier this way.

[fbdaury]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I don't really know much about "Multi-Power Attack". Does it, like Two Weapon Fighting, allow you to make multiple attacks at the campaign's maximum attack point value on a single target in a single phase? If so, how does the point cost for Multi-Power Attack compare with the point cost for Two Weapon Fighting?

 

(And please stop bringing up Ambidexterity, Sweep, and Autofire. None of these do what Two Weapon Fighting does.)

 

 

Actually, yes, they do exactly the same thing.

 

Multiple Power Attack allows you to use as many attack powers against the attacker as you have, with the following rules:

1 target only

all use same attack roll and must be same type of attack roll(ie. no ego blast and energy blast combos)

if in a framework(MP), the user must have enough reserve to power all the attacks at the same time.

But there are no penalties for the extra attacks.

Martial Art maneuvers can, at GM discretion, be counted as seperate powers to determine eligibility for MPAs.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Yes it does.

 

For crying out loud, I quoted Steve Long in the FAQ. What does it take with you people?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

And to clarify... In the FAQ Steve said ...

"A Sweep generally applies to two or more targets and involves the use of a single Maneuver/power, though the rules have optional provisions for Sweeps involving multiple Maneuvers/Powers. The rules do allow for Sweeps against a single target, but these are rare and generally involve things like Sweep Grabbing multiple limbs or Sweep Disarming multiple weapons."

 

OK... my emphasis

Section in Bold confirms that the rules allow it.

section in italics is Steve attempting to estabish a common customary rule, essentially. This was a fine line of thought if Sweep was the only multiple attack manuver, but with Multiple Power Attacks and Rapid Fire manuver, it became increasingly obvious that the customary ruling was unduly harsh versus Hand to Hand attacks

Just another $ .02

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

For crying out loud, I quoted Steve Long in the FAQ. What does it take with you people?

 

Nevermind. Just nevermind. I should have known better. Forget I even asked.

if you come right down to it... If you're paying points for your weapons, forget the 2 weapon fighting skill...

Technically, you can buy an extra copy of your weapon for only 5 extra points and then perform a Multiple Power Attack with them.

LIke I said...its a pardigm shift, and takes some getting used to.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

The dispute over the interpretation of Sweep may have arisen because how it's been presented is a little unclear and contradictory. The description of Sweep in the original 5E did not clearly state any restrictions on the type of Maneuvers that could be used when Sweeping against a single target. Furthermore, the italicized example of Sweep on 5E pp. 263-64 has Nighthawk explicitly Sweeping a punch against a single target. (Not having purchased 5ER yet, I can't say whether that example has been kept; if it has it should be somewhere around p. 398 according to zornwill's page correspondence list.)

 

The FAQ entry quoted above may be Steve Long's followup attempt to put some limits on sweep, but note that it says that these restrictions "generally" apply. As usual Steve is leaving individual GMs room to wiggle. Part of the problem, of course, is that Sweep is an optional maneuver, so whether a given GM will allow it at all or what it may be used for is up to them.

 

As for Two-Weapon Fighting or any other maneuver allowing a character to effectively double their attacks, that's a capacity that HERO fans had long been asking for before 5E came out, to help them simulate a common schtick from numerous action genres. The optional Maneuvers, Rapid Fire and Blazing Away, plus the rules for Multiple-Power Attacks, all grant this ability with different benefits and drawbacks. Since there are now multiple options for doing this, the ability is generally available to characters of many different backgrounds and concepts. That alone is a good argument for allowing Sweep to be used against a single target, along with those other Maneuvers; otherwise Two-Weapon Fighting really would grant an excessive advantage, and every player would want to buy it whether or not it fits a character's concept.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

...otherwise Two-Weapon Fighting really would grant an excessive advantage' date=' and every player would want to buy it whether or not it fits a character's concept.[/quote']

 

That was my feeling, originally. It just seemed too effective, and provided an ability that isn't available any other way (other than buying up your Speed).

 

However, I have been reviewing the various 5th Edition combat skills, including:

 

Skills

  Autofire Skills

    Accurate Sprayfire

    Concentrated Sprayfire

    Rapid Autofire

    Skipover Sprayfire

  Rapid Attack (HtH)

  Rapid Attack (Ranged)

  Two-Weapon Fighting (HtH)

  Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranged)

 

Maneuvers

  Rapid Fire

  Sweep

 

I have come to the conclusion that these, including Two-Weapon Fighting, are not problematic, as long as the players all keep in mind the various OCV and DCV penalties, and the amount of time it takes to perform them. As long as the people who have characters with these abilities are careful to remember and apply the appropriate restrictions for the mnaneuvers they are using (being 1/2 DCV, taking a full phase, and so on), I don't have a problem with them, even in a superhero level game. After a careful review, I think the combined point costs and penalties are sufficient for the functionality gained.

 

I do suggest that everyone read the book and familiarize themselves with how these all work. They're not organized terribly well, and there's a fair bit of page-flipping to get all the interactions sorted out.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Technically' date=' you can buy an extra copy of your weapon for only 5 extra points and then perform a Multiple Power Attack with them.[/quote']

 

No, you can't. You can't use the same attack twice in a Multi-Power Attack (I spent part of the afternoon reading up on this, in addition to the other skills and maneuvers listed above).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Remember also that for a Multi-Power Attack, there is only one attack roll for all the combined Powers (though they each apply to defenses seperately, etc.). On average, that makes no difference, but it eliminates the possibility of some Powers affecting the target and the rest not affecting it, so the distribution is affected in a way.

 

As for the differences between Two-Weapon Fighting and Sweep/Rapid Fire, I would prioritize it this way: 1.) Differences that are specifically called out between the two (-3 DCV rather than 1/2 DCV, I guess); 2.) The concept that Two-Weapon Fighting is built specifically as limited forms of Ambidexterity and CSLs with the Sweep/Rapid Fire maneuver; 3.) The actual description of Two-Weapon Fighting. If we stick to this order of priorities, then if you are going to limit Sweep or Rapid Fire to hitting different opponents, you should limit Two-Weapon Fighting in exactly the same way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Another interesting point is that, if you are wielding two weapons in a heroic game, you can technically do a Multi-Power Attack with the weapons (only on a single target) at no additional penalties without Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Rapid Attack.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

]if you are going to limit Sweep or Rapid Fire to hitting different opponents' date=' you should limit Two-Weapon Fighting in exactly the same way.[/quote']

 

No: Sweep is specifically for different targets (aside from a few exceptional cases); Two-Weapon Fighting isn't. They're explicitly different in that respect.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

if you are wielding two weapons in a heroic game' date=' you can technically do a Multi-Power Attack with the weapons...[/quote']

 

No, you can't. You can't use the same attack twice in a Multi-Power Attack (I spent part of the afternoon reading up on this, in addition to the other skills and maneuvers listed above).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No: Sweep is specifically for different targets (aside from a few exceptional cases); Two-Weapon Fighting isn't. They're explicitly different in that respect.

Hmm. Really? Does it specifically list out that difference in the description of Two-Weapon Fighting in 5ER? I don't believe it does in 5E.