Two Weapon Fighting

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

So I can buy "Energy Blast Boy' date=' with, lets say, a 60 point EB? And for 5 more points he has 2 of them? And can fire them both simultaneously, with no penalites whatsoever? Rather imbalancing, if true.[/quote']

 

The 5-point doubler is supposed to work solely for equipment (i.e. something with the Focus Limitation), not innate character abilities. That said, it's an option that I myself am uncomfortable with. Again, though, it's still a "GM permission" rule.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

So I can buy "Energy Blast Boy' date=' with, lets say, a 60 point EB? And for 5 more points he has 2 of them? And can fire them both simultaneously, with no penalites whatsoever?[/quote']

 

If you are using Rapid Fire, then yes, sort of: the penalties accrue from the Rapid Fire maneuver. The fact you fire once from each hand rather than twice from one hand is merely a special effect.

 

If you are using a Multi-Power attack, then no, absolutely not: you can't use the same power twice in a Multi-Power attack, despite what some people in this thread think. The book (and common sense) makes that crystal clear.

 

And you only get twice as many of a Power for 5 points if it's a focus, anyway. And it doesn't give you more attacks, it basically just gives you spares in case one is lost or given away. Again, the book (and common sense) makes that crystal clear.

[atlascott]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

But you dont pay points for equipment in a heroic level game. So wouldn't a skill or feat that lets you shoot your .45 faster make more sense than making a character that otherwise DOESN'T have to pay for a gun with CP's? Or +5 points for two? Would seem to be a bad move in a heroic campaign--just use rapid fire or something and buy some Combat skill levels...

[atlascott]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Obviously, I am confused, and I will have to read by 5th ed (unrevised) when I get home. But if the +5 gets you an extra, says, gun. Great. You have an extra gun. Dont you then have to have a feat or perform a combar maneuver that allows you to actually USE the second gun simultaneously? And if you do, dont you get the off hand penalty? Or whatever OCV penalty there is for the associated maneuver? If this is the case, then great, you have 2 guns. You can fire them both, but unless you're Annie Oakley, you probably aren't hitting too much. But it has been sugested in this thread the buying the second gun for +5 points somehow avoids any penalties associated with its use. Is this true? Id it is, THIS is what I take primary exception to.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

But you dont pay points for equipment in a heroic level game.

 

Therefore, the +5 for x2 focuses rule is generally not applicable for Heroic level games (except for unique equipment that the character does pay points for).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

But if the +5 gets you an extra' date=' says, gun. Great. You have an extra gun. Dont you then have to have a feat or perform a combar maneuver that allows you to actually USE the second gun simultaneously?[/quote']

 

That depends on what you do with it. See my post about Rapid Fire and Multi-Power attacks, about four posts up the page.

 

But it has been sugested in this thread the buying the second gun for +5 points somehow avoids any penalties associated with its use. Is this true?

 

No. That's flat wrong.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

That doesn't sound right. Aren't there penalties for off hand weapons?

Not if you use them with a primary-hand weapon in a Multi-Power Attack. In that case there is one attack roll, it has no penalties, and if it lands you can apply the damage of both weapons as if they had hit individually (just like if they were one weapon with a Linked attack). You can't attack different targets with each weapon like you can with Sweep/Rapid Fire, though, and a target could Block them with one roll.

 

In a way this makes some sense, because if I were to take weapons in both hands and swing them next to each other simultaneously, it would probably be easier than if I were to take those weapons and try to manipulate them independently and simultaneously. That's just the way our brain and motor system works.

 

I'm not sure if I will allow this as a full option in my heroic games, though. I'll probably have to think on it quite a bit, and possibly even do some play testing to see how unbalancing it seems.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I'm going to try this again. These are from 5ER - anything you look up in FRED may be incomplete or misleading. 5ER incorporates the FAQ and sets the new baseline. However, all of these rules are optional

 

Sweep

5ER, p397, paragraph 1: Sweep can be used against multiple or single targets.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting

5ER, p75, paragraph 4: Characters with Two-Weapon Fighting are subject to all rules covering Rapid Fire or Sweep. One exception: DCV penalty is -2 instead of 1/2.

It also describes explicitely that TWF is limited Ambidexterity and levels to offset Sweep penalties.

 

Multiple Power Attacks

5ER, p358-360: is extremely clear. In an example it explicitely points out that a character with 2 melee weapons can perform a MPA - at no penalty. It also points out that in campaigns that allow Rapid Fire/Sweep (which is the only way to use a single weapon/attack multiple times) you may want to consider limiting the effectiveness of an MPA (e.g. apply the sweep rules to MPAs).

 

5ER, p 360 states that characters who fight with a weapon in each hand, including ranged attacks like pistols.

 

While I consider all rules in Hero optional by default, some are explicitly stated as such and others are not. MPA is not stated as an optional rule. In fact, it is in the second column under the Beginning Combat section on p357. MPA is a default rule. There is a side-bar on p360 talking about restricting MPA, and also its relation to Linked.

 

That makes MPA the baseline for multiple attacks, with maneuvers such as Sweep and Rapid Fire (aka ranged sweep) altering how that can be handled, as well as expanding it (e.g. MPA cannot be used against multiple targets).

 

So, I will attempt a summary, but I'm sure I will miss something.

 

Against a single target

MPA with no penalties. 1 attack roll. Blocked/deflected as a single attack. Elements must either be unique martial maneuvers (e.g. disarm & strike), multiple foci (e.g. 2 guns, swords, etc.), or 2 different powers.

 

Sweep/Rapid Fire with standard penalties & off-hand penalties. Multiple attack rolls (and stop rolling after the first miss). Blocked/Deflected as multiple attacks. Can be performed with the same weapon/attack or multiple attacks.

 

Two-Weapon Fighting just makes Sweep/Rapid Fire easier.

 

Against multiple targets

Sweep/Rapid Fire with standard penalties & off-hand penalties. Multiple attack rolls (and stop rolling after the first miss). Blocked/Deflected as multiple attacks. Can be performed with the same weapon/attack or multiple attacks.

 

MPA is really only an option using the Spreading combat modifier.

 

I hope this helps. I wish I could just copy/paste those pages from 5ER because they are very clear (as are the sections on sweep/rapid fire).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It also describes explicitely that TWF is limited Ambidexterity and levels to offset Sweep penalties.

 

That's just flavor text describing how Two-Weapon Fighting works in practice. You are taking it too literally. That's the risk when one uses flavor text, I suppose -- someone is going to latch onto it as Holy Writ and be a pain in the ass.

 

In an example it explicitely points out that a character with 2 melee weapons can perform a MPA - at no penalty.

 

No, it explicitly says that that is a GM's option -- a GM's option which explicitly contradicts what it explicitly says several times in the paragraphs leading up to it: that you can't use the same attack -- or even the same kind of attack, like two different damage-causing Martial Arts maneuvers -- in a Multi-Power Attack. It also explictly says that if you do want to use the same attack, or even the same kind of attack, to attack a target more than once, you should not use the Multi-Power Attack rule, but should instead use one attack with Sweep or Rapid Fire. That is what it explicitly says.

 

This is the second or third time you've posted this same incorrect misinformation, and the second or third time you've been corrected. This topic is complex enough without someone posting blatant misinformation. Please stop doing so.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

That's just flavor text describing how Two-Weapon Fighting works in practice. You are taking it too literally. That's the risk when one uses flavor text' date=' I suppose -- someone is going to latch onto it as Holy Writ and be a pain in the ass.[/quote']

I don't think so. I think that is the important part of the text, and the rest is flavor.

 

No, it explicitly says that that is a GM's option -- a GM's option which explicitly contradicts what it explicitly says several times in the paragraphs leading up to it: that you can't use the same attack -- or even the same kind of attack, like two different damage-causing Martial Arts maneuvers -- in a Multi-Power Attack. It also explictly says that if you do want to use the same attack, or even the same kind of attack, to attack a target more than once, you should not use the Multi-Power Attack rule, but should instead use one attack with Sweep or Rapid Fire. That is what it explicitly says.

 

This is the second or third time you've posted this same incorrect misinformation, and the second or third time you've been corrected. This topic is complex enough without someone posting blatant misinformation. Please stop doing so.

I've already referenced specific answers from Steve Long stating that you can perform a MPA with two weapons. If you ignore Martial Arts, the rule is simple: two powers bought seperately (i.e. each having a point cost) can be used in a MPA; the same power cannot be re-used with itself for a MPA. Two weapons wielded in a heroic game would be like two Powers bought with two point totals in a superheroic game. They are different Powers (heck, one might even be an RKA sword and the other an Entangle whip, but should these be usable together when two swords aren't? NO), and can be used together in a MPA.

 

The real problem probably comes in (as usual) with HA. You could buy two very small (1d6 = 3 points) HAs and suddenly use your Strength as a double attack. This issue doesn't exist with HKAs, nor if you regard the HA itself as the base attack (as is done in heroic games in any case).

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

You could buy two very small (1d6 = 3 points) HAs and suddenly use your Strength as a double attack.

 

No, you can't: not without getting special permission. Using "two similar (perhaps identical) attacks that both do damage with STR" is explicitly a GM's option. It is not permitted under the standard rules. "The same applies to using Ranged weapons, wuch as two pistols or two thrown daggers." (H5R, p. 359)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

And you are wrong.

 

 

 

Then you are ignoring one of the specific examples used to illustrate that YOU CAN'T USE THE SAME POWER, OR EVEN THE SAME KIND OF ATTACK, TWICE IN A MULTI-POWER ATTACK.

 

 

 

Would use Rapid Fire or Sweep, AS STATED IN THE BOOK.

 

 

 

No, you can't: not without getting special permission. Using "two similar (perhaps identical) attacks that both do damage with STR" is explicitly a GM's option. It is not permitted under the standard rules. "The same applies to using Ranged weapons, wuch as two pistols or two thrown daggers." (H5R, p. 359)

 

You are wrong. Go read the damned book and stop posting blatantly incorrect information.

No need to get your panties in a bunch, my friend. mudpyr8 has sited directly from the book, and nothing he has stated has gone against my understanding of how MPAs, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Sweep/Rapid Fire work.

 

Are you saying that I can't Link two EBs together in order to have an electified projectile that does some physical damage and some energy damage? Or are you one of those in the camp that says the Linked Limitation should give you the advantage of being able to use two Powers together when normally you cannot?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

By the way, you may want to read the "Multiple-Power Attacks--Untenable Rule" thread if you haven't. It is a good discussion about MPAs and their history.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No need to get your panties in a bunch' date=' my friend.[/quote']

 

Indeed. I shouldn't take this stuff so seriously. It's not like anyone's life is in danger.

 

I went back and took out most of the vitriol.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I think that part of what may be causing so much conflict on the topic is that some of us have been influenced by the section in Fantasy Hero on Multiple Power attacks (FH, pg 150)

without excerpting, which is a board no no IIRC, it basically states that STR based attacks, martial maneuvers and the like are seperate powers if the are reasonably distinguishable. It then sites examples. As with everything else, its written with a lot of wiggle room for GM preference.

Later on the same page, it even sites that as a GM option, multiple power attacks could be used to simulate attacking with a weapon in each hand, even if they are identical.

just another point for consideration

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I think the problem is Brandon's interpretation of what a single power is. He seems (to me) to be going off the interpretation that a single power is a single SFX defined construct and Points based construct i.e. Flame Blast or Hyper-Strength. Most of the rest of the thread posters are looking at separate powers as things that were paid points for *separately* even if the SFX are virtually or exactly identical.

 

It is a personal call. In Brandon's games MPAs are separate powers: Ice Blast can go with Flame Blast. In my game Gunslinger and his Pulse Pistol (75 AP MP) and its copy (+x2 for +5 CP) can make a MPA since the powers are to me separate. Again it is a personal call on what is or is not a separate power. No rules quoting will win out here.

 

I think Brandon's confusion and iritation comes in where he thinks some of us are advocating the I hit him and I kick him option of using STR twice, or I blast him with the Flame Blast Twice. Now if the STR guy didn't buy a power or manuver then the answer should be no you can't do that, but if the character bought a power like say 'Power Horn +4d6 HA" and wanted to combine that with a regular Strike the rules say he should be able to do that. The Flame Blast guy simply cannot do that and must use the rules for Rapid Fire since he does not meet the requirements of using a separate power.

 

Now the rules about no MPA with an EC are IMO very arbitrary and very silly. Especially in the light of using MPAs with MA as an allowed action. So what if ECs are variants off a single power (I liked tight concept as the descriptor for EC but oh well!) as long as the Superheated Magma bolt and the Lava Spear are paid for separately (ie two slots) the MPA *should* be legal. But then again ECs are hosed everywhere else in 5e and 5er why not extend the pain to MPA as well.

 

 

BTW, Brandon please stop fervently pointing out other posters are wrong. They aren't (most of the time). They simply take a different reading of the text than you do. Concepts are funny that way: They are subjective. Your tone is way too harsh and autocratic for a forum based on mutual respect and enjoyment of the game.

 

Hawksmoor

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Bblackmoor, please take Hawksmoor's advice. I have been nothing but respectful and you have been scathing. I am not wrong, and don't make me out to be spreading misinformation. You are making it seem as if the rules as stated are only accurate according to your interpretation.

 

Optional rules aren't wrong. By that line, Two-Weapon Fighting can't be used. The reference to Sweep/Rapid Fire aren't flavor text, they are literal text (5ER, p73):

 

"Two Weapon Fighting is the ability to use the Combat Maneuvers Rapid Fire or Sweep (see pages 396, 397), combined with a limited form of the Talent Ambidexterity in an improved manner."

 

So, either you have to accept that optional rules are in play here, or the only thing that can apply is MPA (but not the two weapon element). What will it be? Can we continue this discussion with the admission of optional rules or are we only going to look at this from a strict, non-optional approach?

 

If your concern is to limit the amount of raw damage that can be caused, I think that's moot point as well. In the second-to-the-last paragraph on p358 it gives an example of combining an 8d6 EB with a 2d6 RKA. How is that any more abusive than using two guns? Which is further supported by Steve Long's responses to some MPA clarifications (as referenced by Prest.).

 

I am happy to continue this discussion, but in a friendly manner if you don't mind.

[Vondy]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

I have a simple rule: "if a mechanic hasn't proven to be a problem in actual play its not a problem." In my games characters with TWF have never proven unbalancing. Characters can essentially do the same thing with Rapid Fire and Sweep, just not as well. And neither of those maneuvers have proven to be a problem in play, either. And my players are very good at finding problematic mechanics.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

In my games characters with TWF have never proven unbalancing. Characters can essentially do the same thing with Rapid Fire and Sweep' date=' just not as well.[/quote']

 

That's the conclusion I came to, as well.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

...if the character bought a power like say 'Power Horn +4d6 HA" and wanted to combine that with a regular Strike the rules say he should be able to do that.

 

No, they say that you shouldn't do that, but that the GM can permit it under special circumstances.

 

Now the rules about no MPA with an EC are IMO very arbitrary and very silly.

 

I agree.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

In the second-to-the-last paragraph on p358 it gives an example of combining an 8d6 EB with a 2d6 RKA.

 

Those are different powers. Using Multi-Power Attack with different powers has never been an issue.

 

(sigh)

 

It's clear that this is not a misunderstanding on your part: you simply don't want to read the rules and abide by them. I'm wasting my time and yours by correcting you, so I'll stop. Have fun.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

No' date=' they say that you [b']shouldn't[/b] do that, but that the GM can permit it under special circumstances.

 

Actually the it should be permitted as long as the their effects are reasonably distinguishable.

 

So Grond giving a Four-Arm Smash (Strike) and a Gore (Power Horn +4d6 HA) MPA to IronClad would be allowable IMO since the attacks are different even though STR forms the basis of the attack.

 

If Grond wanted to simply use four arms to smash Ironclad I would require the use of Sweep since the character is attacking using the strike manuver four times.

 

See? There really is a difference and it really is much simpler than some make it out to be.

 

Hawksmoor

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

So Grond giving a Four-Arm Smash (Strike) and a Gore (Power Horn +4d6 HA) MPA to IronClad would be allowable IMO...

 

They're both STR-based attacks. They both do normal damage. That's exactly the kind of Multi-Power Attack that the book says should not usually be permitted. It gives several examples: this is not an area where the book is ambiguous. (Whether the prohibition is reasonable is another question. I am open to the suggestion that it may not be reasonable.)

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

It is all in your interpretation of reasonably distinguishing. For me it is separate power purchased separately. In this case straight STR (Four Arm Strike) and STR+HA (Power Horn Gore), For you the situation is obviously different. You are most likely stuck on the no Martial Strike no Defensive strike line in the MPA section. Great! That is one way to run it. Another acceptable (yes, it says GMs can allow it....see comment below) is to run the Two Katana weilding MA or Gun Fu blazing away John Woo's wet dream hitman.

 

In any event the rules allow it/either to work.

 

Now reading over your posts you assume that GM's call means that the rules are *not* to be used under most circumstances. I view them instead as Magnifying Glass or at worst Stop Signs. Not that I can't use them, only that the GM might want to look at these particular rules and see if he is comfortable using them.

 

Hawksmoor

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

 

Now reading over your posts you assume that GM's call means that the rules are *not* to be used under most circumstances.

 

That's not an assumption: that is exactly what it means.