Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

[mytrustyd20]

Heya!

 

I'm running a post-apoc campaign based loosely on Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel. My players and I have a strong d20 background, mainly d20 Modern and D&D.

 

One thing that seems painfully missing in Hero is Attacks of Opportunities. This is a mechanic that places risk on certain actions, when they are done in melee combat. One example is firing a missile weapon while in melee, allows the meleeing enemy a free attack.

 

In Hero it really looks like characters can run right by each other and attempt all sorts of actions-with no danger of any kind of attack of opportunity-which doesn't "feel" right for this gritty world.

 

Has anyone else run into this? Do you have any suggestions? Perhaps I don't need these and they have no place in Hero...but my gaming group and I are really noticing their absence so far.

[Steve Long]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Since this isn't a rules question so much as it is a "how to," I've moved it to the Discussion board so anyone who wants to can offer an opinion.

[MitchellS]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Well there are "rear" attack advantages in Hero [1/2 DCV]. There are also weapon lenth options. And in heroic level games I believe bows are purchased with the 1/2 DCV concentration limitation, meaning trying to use a bow against a melee attack will basically ensure you will get hit.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

In Hero it really looks like characters can run right by each other and attempt all sorts of actions-with no danger of any kind of attack of opportunity-which doesn't "feel" right for this gritty world.

 

Has anyone else run into this? Do you have any suggestions? Perhaps I don't need these and they have no place in Hero...but my gaming group and I are really noticing their absence so far.

 

It's not something I've ever given a whole lot of thought, but what you could do is create a new combat option - something like "Abort for Attack of Opportunity" - Allows a character to burn his next phase out of turn to make an attack against a target that has just placed itself in jeopardy. Probably not too much of balance issue.

 

Alternatively, you could create a talent that gives someone the ability to make an attack of opportunity. +1 Speed, only to make an attack of opportunity.

[mytrustyd20]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

These are good ideas...except the "feel" (in d20 at least) is different. If someone provokes an Attack of Opportunity near you, you get a free attack against them...you don't have to sacrifice a later attack.

 

Would there be obvious balance or other problems in just bolting on the d20 mechanic in my games...????

[MitchellS]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Allowing free attacks in a speed-based system can have problems. You're dealing with aborting issues now and many other factors. If you can attack, and then get a free attack again, why can't you attack and block too? It starts to become a tweak race with the players. I wouldn't allow it, but then I don't want my games to "feel" like d20. If I did I'd play d20 games.

 

Part of the advantage of delaying and not always going first is so that you can take advantage of those 1/2 DCV back attacks and such if someone moves away from you. Those things are already part of the game.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Yeah, but who says attacks or opportunity are more realistic than "concentrating" and taking the hit to your defenses. In my mind the best thing Mutants and Masterminds did was DROP AoO.

 

Besides as someone who has had a handgun pulled on them at short range I can testify that you don't always get a free attack in such situations.

 

AoO is just a mechanic to allow fighters to interfere with mages who are about to hose them down, it's a balancing feature to that system, not a realism feature.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Well, I think the idea behind AoO is if someone happens by you whist you are holding a sword, you can take a free whack at them. It simulates a slightly more chaotic and dynamic combat system.

 

I hate all the rules from d20, though, because they're pre-manufactured and dumbed down.... but hey, /endrant.

[tesuji]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

My thoughts...

 

For a supers game, with its wide ranging movement style, AoOs are not appropriate. people move and fly about willy nilly and have no real downsides to it, and no real advantages from it either. The catch-as-catch-can style is just flavor.

 

So HERo and MnM not doing AoOs is Ok for me for those genres.

 

For more...aheam..."realistic" genres, the ability to simply say "i move from in front of him to behind him" with impunity in melee combat, much less the theoretical gaining of "attack from rear" bonus (although. some say they only occur with surprise, not just from being behind in hero) stretches credibility a bit far.

 

Now, D20 games which dont use AoOs, and there are quite a few, simply PROHIBIT the maneuver and make you stop moving once you enter melee range of an enemy and turn it into 5' steps. if you have an appropriate feat (mobility) or skill (tumble) you can waive this restriction. So, they replace "take an AoO" with a "cannot do" barring proper skills/feats.

 

You might want to try that in your hero style game, as a nod to simpler. Use acrobatics skill maybe.

 

I imagine most Gms of FH style games would simply refuse to let a character "run rings around" an active adversary in melee range. This is more or less the same thing.

 

As for penalizing actions, like drinking potions and firing bows, i would tend to agree that a 1/2 dcv penalty seems good. Another notion might be to add some version of "extra time" like extra phase or extra segment but "only when within melee range" to reflect the added difficulty.

 

if you really want extra attacks, free attacks, then i would suggest just implementing it as a meta rule affecting everyone and not requiring points. Define the cases and go from there. It should not produce balance issues of significant note.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

The existing rules for dealing with this scenario (in The Ultimate Martial Artist) involve assessing DCV penalties to characters attempting to "bypass" characters to attack others, or to characters attempting to interpose themselves between an attacker and another party. However, these options don't normally allow you to attack the character who moves before your Action Phase - you can't Abort to an offensive Action.

 

Virtually the same topic came up for discussion not long ago, and several options were discussed, including the possibility of Aborting to Movement purely to defend another character by physically putting yourself in the attacker's path:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30900

[Herolover]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

One of the problems you have is you are thinking in terms of D&D combat.

D&D combat is very generalized with each turn being 6 seconds long. This generalization makes a lot of assumptions and actions are not really accounted for.

 

In HERO comabat that same D&D combat turn is spread over 6 segments that are each one second long and each action is accounted for.

 

In D&D it is assumed that you do not really use your full action, but instead look for someone to move past or by you so when they do you strike at them. This assumption is not made in HERO. Instead you get your full action and if you take it all you cannot react.

 

So, how to do "attacks of opportunity" in HERO. Teach, tell, show, your players that when they think someone is going to go by them they need to "Hold their action" so when the person moves the PC can interrupt their movement and strike.

This way follows HERO rules and is realistic.

 

If you don't want to follow HERO rules or want a very cinematic game than just rule that anytime someone moves in a "threatened hex" the person gets a free attack.

 

It comes down to the fact that the two systems module combat very differently. D&D generalizes and assumes more. HERO assumes nothing and for the most part considers things very realistically. In a real fight you don't get attacks of opportunity unless you are waiting to specifically do them.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

I've thought a bit about this as well, and mostly have to agree with what the other poster have said.

I have quite a lot of practical melee combat experience, and can tell you from first hand experience that attacks of opportunity aren't really as common or easy as D20 makes them out to be. Herolover is dead on... the vast majority of real AoO's would be held actions in HERO terms. Real, full on, fog-of-war, guys screaming, weapons everywhere, cannons roaring type battlefeilds are confusing as hell, chaotic, messy and distracting. You can always spot the experienced fighters by their economy of movement... in HERO terms, they're they guys who stick with half moves and then hold the remaindder of their action, except when they see a potential target and then launch into an attack.

That being said, I do think that there is potential for adding an optional Opportunity Attack maneuver, because it does happen, but IME it does involve robbing Peter to pay Paul... if you see an opening you weren't prepared for and launch a rapid attack its going to leave you in a disadvantaged position unless your quick attack drops your opponent and there isn't anyone around to exploit the chance you've given them. I've been thinking about trying out something like this:

Opportunity Attack:

-2 OCV, -2 DCV (or 1/2 DCV... haven't decided yet) Strike Abort

 

I don''t think this would completely wack the system out of joint.

Now, OTOH... if you want to make a character who is a real veteran warrior who can pounce on the smallest opening and exploit it ruthlessly,in the process duplicating some of the D20 feats, I'd build it as a Talent based on Trigger for the characters strike. This is both expensive and hideously effective (hence why its a stopsign power), but could simulate what you want admirably.

 

EDIT: An easy example for a build like I descibed is the Follow Up Attack talent in FH. Change the name and the trigger conditions (say, attack is triggered when an opponent moves within range without either attacking the character or holding an action) and you're good to go

[mytrustyd20]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Thanks all-your comments are appreciated.

 

In particular, I think Herolover's response struck a chord with me. I think I'll march forward w/o changing anything-the held action makes more sense, I think.

[Herolover]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Just a follow on note...or two

 

One of the reasons questions like this come up so often is due to how different HERO combat is modeled. Most players are used to the generic combat where they get to go once and then rules are inserted for other things. This can cause a lot of problems for players new to HERO who are used to the I go, he goes, I go formula of combat.

 

I don't mean to sound rules elitiest. It really comes down to what kind of game you want to run. I have seen settings and campaigns in which I would be happy to introduce an "attack of opportunity" manuever. However, for the most part I have found that having my villians and pc's hold their actions provides a better flow of combat.

 

One other note about held actions. Under "official" rules there is a problem where a person will get to their next phase before they use their held action and then be short changed.

 

Example Speed 4 guy with 18 DEX. He goes on 3, 6, 9, 12. On segment 3 he holds a half action on segment 5 he either acts or looses his held action. If the villian has a 19 DEX this mean the hero could act on phase 5, but then get caught of guard on segment 6 as the villian gets to go before him.

 

I use the house rule that if you have a held action going into the segment in which you have a phase you automatically go before anyone unless they also have a held action going into the segment.

 

 

Just thought it might help.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

I am so eternally thankful to have a system which gives such a huge number of options without needing, "Attacks of Opportunity." Such things are incredibly unrealistic in my experience, and logically must turn into a cascade effect.

 

Most GMs gave some kind of free attack in D&D when your foe simply turned their back and ran. Then a nifty little supplement called Combat and Tactics came out and introduced the, "Attack of Opportunity," to the core system. That was when D&D lost its mind. It has never been the same since. Just about all the tactical thinking in D&D now comes down to how to get Attacks of Opportunity and how to avoid them. Instead of some kind of common sense addition to the system, it has become one of the primary distinguishers.

 

All D&D needs now is for one of those war-gamers who sit on their asses all day and think about AoOs to realize that any attack whatsoever will create an opening of some sort, so anyone nearby should get an AoO when someone attacks, including when someone makes an AoO.

 

Sorry. Somehow I can't help going off every time this bastard mechanic is brought up in connection with Hero. I guess I am really afraid someone might get a notion to add it to the official Hero system some day. Such lame ideas seem to be contagious between systems for some reason (more so than the good ideas, it seems).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Sorry. Let me offer something that might be very slightly constructive instead of just ranting. I think once you get really used to the Speed Chart, Held Actions, Aborting, and all the rest, you will find that Attacks of Opportunity really aren't necessary. After you get to know it like the back of your hand, you will doubtless start experimenting with more optional maneuvers, Triggered/Continuous/Damage Shield constructs with Limitations, Limited Speed, and that kind of funness. I have. It all goes up from there.

 

EDIT: Ah, rules such as those for Aborts, Blocks, and Dive for Covers can also be fun to experiment with, if you want general changes to the combat system. I usually play with some changes for a while where common sense says I am still within the bounds of the system (or its intent; interpreting a, "defensive action," loosely can give you a lot of flexibility while still technically being within the bounds of the official rules).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Sorry. Let me offer something that might be very slightly constructive instead of just ranting. I think once you get really used to the Speed Chart' date=' Held Actions, Aborting, and all the rest, you will find that Attacks of Opportunity really aren't necessary. After you get to know it like the back of your hand, you will doubtless start experimenting with more optional maneuvers, Triggered/Continuous/Damage Shield constructs with Limitations, Limited Speed, and that kind of funness. I have. It all goes up from there. [/quote']

I concur, and thats kinda where I was trying to go with my suggestions.

Like Herolover mentioned, any "turn & initiative" based game will probably come up with some sort of AoO rules, overwatch, zones of control and all those other relics of wargames past, to try and spackle over some of the worst unrealities inherent in such a system.

HERO pretty much doen't need to, as it already is one of the best reality simulators by adding additional granularity to the action system, tho I do think that there is a place for an Abort attack like I mentioned above as well as the variety of "Act out of turn" powers like Trigger, Damage Sheild etc.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

...tho I do think that there is a place for an Abort attack like I mentioned above as well as the variety of "Act out of turn" powers like Trigger' date=' Damage Sheild etc.[/quote']

I don't think it is entirely out of place. I would probably prefer a slightly more drastic penalty, though. After all, with only a -2 OCV and -2 DCV, I could buy a few CSLs (even Limited ones) and simply Abort to an attack all the time. That rather violates the whole notion of the Speed Chart and Aborts.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

I don't think it is entirely out of place. I would probably prefer a slightly more drastic penalty' date=' though. After all, with only a -2 OCV and -2 DCV, I could buy a few CSLs (even Limited ones) and simply Abort to an attack all the time. That rather violates the whole notion of the Speed Chart and Aborts.[/quote']

yeah, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of an abort attack being 1/2 DCV. It preserves balance better, puts it in line some of the other balance shifting maneuvers (like Sweep) and still gibes with my recollections of the few times I've "aborted" to attack during a swordfight without having a "held action".

The few times I can think of where I really saw an unexpected opening while I was in the midst of a mix up and went for it, I almost always ended up paying for it with a reciprocal hit, usually from another combatant.

So in game play it'd become something of a "do I want to pop the dark elf one before he slips past me and attacks the mage? If I do then this goblin here is gonna hit me... can I take it?"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

While I enjoy the new D&D rules and think the Attack of Opportunity rule is a great one, it's only great for D&D/d20. Hero System's combat rules are so vastly different and more detailed there is no room for such a rule. However...

 

Other's have suggested things like Holding a Phase, Aborting and whatnot, but have left out two very important maneuvers: Hipshot and Hurry. Both of these allow you to act before your turn in the initiative on your Phase, and while it doesn't state this, I believe you can "abort" to them to act before some one else. If you are completely outclassed neither will help, but they could help overcome a slight disadvantage in reflexes when you really need to act first. So when you are standing near the exit and the thud tries to make his getaway, but for some reason the thus had a higher DEX than you, you can Hurry to act first and stop him (or at least threaten him so that he knows that trying to move past you would be a bad idea). Same thing can apply when you happen to be standing next to the evil wizard as he's casting that Vile Spell of PC Killing. Hurry/Hipshot, pig-stick him and move on.

 

Another option that was introduced back in 4th somewhere, and was mention above, was the idea of "you can't do that". You can't run straight past a hostile without at least spending some time "confronting" him in the process. If your move would take you through a hex adjacent to any enemy, you had to stop in that hex and couldn't not move until your next Phase. Sometimes that enemy would be slow and wouldn't act before then, sometimes he'd attack someone else, sometimes it only took you a half phase to get there and you could abort to dodge/block when he attack, or you could just kick him in the knee when you stop. I don't tend to use that rule, as I feel if that enemy really wanted to stop you he would have held his action to do so or Hipshot/Hurried to go first.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

I believe Lightning Reflexes allows you to give up the rest of your Phases in the Turn to act before someone else with a higher SPD.

 

That's what The Book said, anywho.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

I believe Lightning Reflexes allows you to give up the rest of your Phases in the Turn to act before someone else with a higher SPD.

 

That's what The Book said, anywho.

 

Not exactly, but close. LR effectively gives you a permanent boost to your DEX, but only for purposes of when you act during a Phase. It can apply to a specific action, or all actions. The drawback is that you have to pay for it up front. The idea of AoOs is that anyone can do it, and it doesn't cost anything.

 

Of course, if you still want a character that just acts quickly, LR is a good way to go.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Ah, okay.

 

There are abilities in d20 which allow you to take more than one AoO per turn, as well... normally, you are limited to one.

 

*shrug* But we'll let d20 take care of itself, eh?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

Hero has "attacks of opportunity". If you leave yourself open, and your opponent is not busy either

 

a) stabbing someone else

frantically NOT getting stabbed

c) running around at top speed

 

then it will get ugly.

 

 

If you're a fighter trying to stab a mage, then them casting a spell with Concentration leaves them open. It just doesn't let you you magically stab them twice as fast.

 

The PLAYER actually has to fight intelligently to get AoO in Hero, not jsut the character. Not too hard though.

[casualplayer]

Re: Attacks of Opportunity (d20) in Hero

 

If you wanted to try Attacks of Opportunity in Hero, give everyone for free an AE: 1 hex No Range Selective Always On (maybe Continuous instead, 0 END to activate) attack at whatever value their weapon of choice is. Then if anyone gets near them at any time, they can take a swipe at them (pay END, roll to hit, doesn't burn an action.) Damage Shield would work also, if you can buy Selective on it. This is the stunt that I think Deathstroke used to tag the Flash in Identity Crisis.

 

Obviously this would hugely benefit the sword swingers and powerhouses, which is why AoO was added to D&D. Mages utterly owned fighters after only a few levels, and this was their awful attempt to "even" things out.