Multiple Attacks

[Legendsmiths]

I was just watching a US Karate Competition. It came to the wood breaking contest, where the contestants can arrange boards around them (held by assistants) and then have 8 seconds to strike as many as possible, getting scored on how many they break, and with a minimum of 1 strike per limb (after the 4 strikes you can use whatever method you like).

 

So, these have to be forceful attacks, enough to break 2-4 boards at a time (sorry, I forgot to get the thickness - 3/8" I think). Here are the results:

 

Chip Townsend - 26 boards with 21 strikes

Clinton Murphy - 24 boards with 11 strikes

Jason Mumaw - 22 boards with 12 strikes

Larry Field - 20 boards with 20 strikes

 

Now, Larry was kind of cheesy - 10 of his strikes were arranged in a gauntlet.

 

Chip was the best. His were arranged in a circle (8 assistants) and his assistants would get more boards after theirs broke. So he was going back and forth.

 

The boards were about 1 foot square, so I'd give that about a -8 OCV penalty, however they are effectively immobile and "surprised" so I'd halve that to -4. Since they are stationary, they are at 0 DCV.

 

My guess is these guys are performing a sweep maneuver for at least 2 attacks, possibly 3. Making 3 attacks they would be at -4 OCV. Combined with the targeting penalty, that's a -8 OCV penalty vs. DCV 0.

 

If we increase the number of strikes they made by 25% to give a 12 second value, you get:

 

Chip - 26.25 strikes/turn = 2.1875 strikes/second = 9 phases (3 attacks/phase) or 7 phases (4 attacks/phase) or 6 phases (5 attacks/phase)

Clinton - 13.75 strikes/turn = 1.145 srikes/second = 5 phases (3 attacks/phase) or 4 phases (4 attacks/phase)

Jason - 15 strikes/turn = 1.25 strikes/second = 5 phases (3 attacks/phase) or 4 phases (4 attacks/phase)

Larry - 25 strikes/turn = 2.08 strikes/second = 9 phases (3 attacks/phase) or 7 phases (4 attacks/phase) or 5 phases (5 attacks/phase)

 

Each of these men were between 30 and 34, to give an idea of time and experience and training.

 

Given normal characteristic maxima, a speed of 9 seems completely out of the question. High skill and a 3-5 speed seems to be the most likely.

 

Just thought I would post this reality check. Make of it what you will. In watching, every strike did not result in a break, but most did.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to break that down into HERO-ese for us.

 

I'm a martial artist myself, and I've been a practitioner of Jeet Kune Do -- which was Bruce Lee's fighting style -- for a decade and a half. Board-breaking is pretty impressive -- just the speed of the competiton you described impresses me -- but once you learn to do it, it doesn't actually take a lot of force at all. It's in technique and follow-through.

 

Although a little bit of muscle certainly helps. Just clarifying a bit, to the tune of "it may not take as much STR as it seems."

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

rapid attack, penalty skill lvls and lots of sweeps?

 

or maybe a selective 1" radius AOE, so he can hit every board in a circle

[Ndreare]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Small note so you can edit them if you want.

 

If you want to know how many attacks someone has based off of a 8 second display you need to increase that number by 50% not 25%. A 25% increase will make it 10 seconds acounted for while a 50% increase will show all 12 seconds accounted for.

If we increase the number of strikes they made by 25% to give a 12 second value, you get:

Chip - 31.5strikes/turn = 2.625 strikes/second

Clinton - 16.5 strikes/turn = 1.375 srikes/second

Jason - 18 strikes/turn = 1.5 strikes/second

Larry - 30 strikes/turn = 2.5 strikes/second

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Yes, thank you for the correction. I was doing inverted reverse polish notation on a 12 second turn (i.e. it was late). That makes it even more impressive.

 

Oh yeah, I remember the name of the competition ... "Combat Wood".

 

No joke.

 

Rapid Attack wouldn't be necessary, since they didn't really move (except for the guy that did the gauntlet). The gauntlet approach certainly does support the idea of a free 5' step or a GURPS style "step and..." maneuver.

 

While AE certainly would cover it, I was hoping to go more realistic. I think PSLs for Sweep is probably the best way, combined with good old 3 pt CSLs.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I agree that sweep is the mechanic in question being used, possibly with the follow up attack talent from FH (I've seen breaking competitions involving a lot more movement before). And the comment about strength not being that important models well in system..thats why MA attacks do extra DC's

one thing about the time scale, to throw a loop into the mix.... while the competition is for 8 seconds, it'd be a safe assumption that the competitors would be holding a phase at the begining. Just to add in a touch more of a headache.

 

Neatest trick I ever saw in a freestyle breaking comptition was a guy who broke 2 stacks of boards simultaneously, one with each hand, with downward strikes... while lying prone, face down, on top the blades of (iirc) 4 katanas. This was the same guy who finished his free style routine by pulling a cord that fired a crossbow at his chest and then breaking the bolt in flight. Dude was a stud.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Neatest trick I ever saw in a freestyle breaking comptition was a guy who broke 2 stacks of boards simultaneously' date=' one with each hand, with downward strikes... while lying prone, face down, on top the blades of (iirc) 4 katanas. This was the same guy who finished his free style routine by pulling a cord that fired a crossbow at his chest and then breaking the bolt in flight. Dude was a stud.[/quote']

 

With all due respect to you, Amadan, and the pugilist gentleman in question: while I do believe that the crossbow bolt feat was genuine, I am most dubious as to the sharpness of those katanas. I own a set of Daisho -- a matched trio of Katana, Wakizashi and Tanto -- forged by a master Japanese smith, and they're so sharp as to defy the imagination. I am also a martial artis myself, though I'll admit I cannot yet catch crossbow bolts.

 

The mere touch of one of those blades is dangerous, and any friction at all with 1/4 of your body weight settled on it... if the blades were as sharp as those forged by a master Japanese smith, then that man has accomplished something truly supernatural.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

With all due respect to you, Amadan, and the pugilist gentleman in question: while I do believe that the crossbow bolt feat was genuine, I am most dubious as to the sharpness of those katanas. I own a set of Daisho -- a matched trio of Katana, Wakizashi and Tanto -- forged by a master Japanese smith, and they're so sharp as to defy the imagination. I am also a martial artis myself, though I'll admit I cannot yet catch crossbow bolts.

 

The mere touch of one of those blades is dangerous, and any friction at all with 1/4 of your body weight settled on it... if the blades were as sharp as those forged by a master Japanese smith, then that man has accomplished something truly supernatural.

I'm almost certain you're correct. I have quite a fair bit of knowledge and experience with blades as well, and I can say with some confidence that these were probably Bud K or Museum Replicas specials. Even assuming mostly blunt, mass produced blades it was a neat trick. It meant he had to hold his entire body rigid to provide enough support to summon the force and ki to execute his breaking strikes while balancing on 4 very thin edges, and those strikes had to be as self conmtained as possible. It showcased his focus and muscle isolation abilities more than his damage resistance, IMHO. And it looked real impressive to folk who don't know weaponry. Not to mention that the strikes in question had to be made with a bare minimum of arm motion. All in all, I don't think he was ever in much danger, but it was still damn impressive.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I'm almost certain you're correct. I have quite a fair bit of knowledge and experience with blades as well' date=' and I can say with some confidence that these were probably Bud K or Museum Replicas specials. Even assuming mostly blunt, mass produced blades it was a neat trick. It meant he had to hold his entire body rigid to provide enough support to summon the force and ki to execute his breaking strikes while balancing on 4 very thin edges, and those strikes had to be as self conmtained as possible. It showcased his focus and muscle isolation abilities more than his damage resistance, IMHO. And it looked real impressive to folk who don't know weaponry. Not to mention that the strikes in question had to be made with a bare minimum of arm motion. All in all, I don't think he was ever in much danger, but it was still damn impressive.[/quote']

 

Oh, I agree with you that it's still impressive, even with the swords. I was taking that as a given, considering his crossbow bolt-catching abilities.

 

Although, as a side note on the crossbow bolt, his timing must be magnificent. I suspect he practiced with a partner at a pre-determined range with a blunt and padded bolt until he had the timing down. Nevertheless! That is still a fully impressive accomplishment. That's EXACT timing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I love these kinds of tournements. My favorite are the freestyle of course, as they are usually the most exciting to watch.

 

As for the mechanics of breaking boards, I'd look at this a little differently:

 

Obviously the martial artist is using Sweep to hit that many boards, but the boards are not 1 foot by 1 foot targets, they are OAFs held by his assistants. The difference here, is that striking an OAF is only a -2 to your OCV. Add in that his target's are motionless (0 DCV), that makes it possibly for a highly skilled, but relatively normal human, to strike that many times with enough force to break that many boards. Assuming that the average contestant (in this competition) has a DEX of 15 and 2-4 CSLs in their style, they can easily devote all their levels to OCV and perform a Fast Strike or Sacrifice Strike to hit the boards (given them a 17- to 22- to hit). Also assuming a SPD of 4 they'll need to Sweep for 6-9 strikes. I'd probably give them an OCV bonus for a successful KS: Style roll (+1 per point the roll is made by, reroll each Phase). Then they just need to have enough total DCs to match the board's DEF and BODY (an easy task for a single board, according to the book, 3/8" thin board has DEF 2, BODY 1).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Oh, I agree with you that it's still impressive, even with the swords. I was taking that as a given, considering his crossbow bolt-catching abilities.

 

Although, as a side note on the crossbow bolt, his timing must be magnificent. I suspect he practiced with a partner at a pre-determined range with a blunt and padded bolt until he had the timing down. Nevertheless! That is still a fully impressive accomplishment. That's EXACT timing.

 

Yeah, I was impressed by the missile deflection too.

I've tried to practice this. I can do spears and javelins, even catching and returning them when thrown at combat speed (don't try this at home unless you've put in TONS of practice time with padded blunts... and when I did it in demonstration with a "real" javelin, it wasn't sharp, and I wore mail). I've tried with blunted arrows, and have succeded a total of maybe 3 times in my life. Crossbows, with their flatter trajectory and higher "muzzle" velocity (for want of a better term) I wouldn't dream of attempting. And I'd never try it with a bow of any type at the range he did... it couldn't have been more than 15 feet or so.

BOKU practice and amazing timing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

These aren't Sweeps; they are Move Bys.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I dont' think so, from the discription it sounded like for everyone but the guy who had the gauntlet that they basically moved in a circle, sweeping.

 

although i didn't see it so i might be wrong

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I dont' think so, from the discription it sounded like for everyone but the guy who had the gauntlet that they basically moved in a circle, sweeping.

 

although i didn't see it so i might be wrong

Well, Move Bys are the way I would do it anyway. It is the only decent way to do a bunch of moving while making mutliple attack rolls all along the way in a very short amount of time (read: few Phases). Whether, "one strike," hit multiple targets or it took two is really just SFX, just like a Sweep could take, "one swing," or multiple to hit many times.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

but really all they were doing was turning and not moving, which is why i dont' think moveby works that well, plus they had no velocity damage

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

There are of course, two methods we're all overlooking.

 

1) PS: Boardbreaking. Number of boards and method of breaking them determines the penalty, or the amount you make your roll by determines how many boards you break in whatever time.

 

2) EB No Range. This is really how you should buy Martial Arts in Hero System anyway. Since it's not a punch, you can't block it (but that can be waived so it's not that important). What is important is that you can spread an EB for area or accuracy. You no longer need CSLs, and you get a better turn around on damage with EB anyway. So you stand in a hex surrounded by guys holding up 1138 boards, you spread your EB 9d6 EB No Range by 6 hexes to hit all the hexes around you and do 3d6 to each DEF 2 BODY 1 board breaking all of them. Ta-da!

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

2) EB No Range. This is really how you should buy Martial Arts in Hero System anyway. Since it's not a punch' date=' you can't block it[/b'] (but that can be waived so it's not that important). What is important is that you can spread an EB for area or accuracy. You no longer need CSLs, and you get a better turn around on damage with EB anyway. So you stand in a hex surrounded by guys holding up 1138 boards, you spread your EB 9d6 EB No Range by 6 hexes to hit all the hexes around you and do 3d6 to each DEF 2 BODY 1 board breaking all of them. Ta-da!

 

Dust Raven, I just got done reading about Block as part of my HERO learning process, and it said that any Power with No Range may be Blocked, unless the GM rules otherwise. That includes not only punches, but melee weapons, many maneuvers, etcetera.

 

If I'm wrong on that, I may need another cup of coffee.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Dust Raven' date=' I just got done reading about Block as part of my HERO learning process, and it said that any Power with No Range may be Blocked, [i']unless the GM rules otherwise[/i]. That includes not only punches, but melee weapons, many maneuvers, etcetera.

 

If I'm wrong on that, I may need another cup of coffee.

 

Ah yes, you're right. That got clarified in 5th. Damn... now I have to change that to Limited Range on all my uber martial artists... maybe I can explain it as a ki strike or something.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Also it was stated before that any sort of AoE power was not the way to go after i suggested a radius attack

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

To clarify movement, nobody moved except for the gauntlet guy (other than spinning/attacking).

 

I also disagree with the blocks as a focus for a couple of reasons. First, by that logic if they were holding a 2'x2' piece of wood or a 6"x6" piece of wood there would be no difference in penalty. Second, since the assistants are stationary you could in theory replace them with board holding devices, which then their status as foci comes into question. Third, if the assistants were trying to not have the boards hit while using them as weapons the -2 would probably be appropriate, but some accomodation for size should be made at some point. If I were trying to hit a broadsword or a dagger I would imagine I would have an easier time hitting the sword. Also, in the description for target size it states the modifier should be used for objects which have no DCV themselves.

 

I think there is a cinematic/realistic distinction going on here. In the realistic, if I target the chest in an attack it is -3 OCV, a penalty worse than a 1'x1' board even though it is a larger target. I believe the logic is that a 1 hex sized object has DCV 3, just like targeting a hex or an average man, and that smaller targets incur an appropriate target size penalty. So a 1/8th hex sized object (25cm == 1'-ish) is a -6 to a DCV of 3 at range or DCV 0 if adjacent. So actually (since this is an OCV penalty) the attacks would be at -6 in addition to Sweep penalties. The text does also state that you could apply the OCV penalty as a DCV bonus, in which case sine the target is "unware of the attack" the DCV would be halved to 3.

 

So, I'm going to go with the 5 SPD x 6 attacks with a DCV of 3. Assuming a base OCV of 7 for these guys, to hit with a 16- (they never missed, although every hit didn't break a board, and I'm going for a minimum level to represent this):

 

7-3 = 4. 11- + 4 = 15-. Skill must therefor offset -10 of the attack +/- 1. I can't hazard how many CSLs make a "Black Belt", but my guess would be 4 (enough to give evenly matched CVs a 15- to hit), so 4 3pt CSLs with the art, and 6 levels with Sweep (2pt levels). DEX 20 = 30 pts, SPD 5 = 30 pts, 4 CSLs = 12 pts, 6 Sweep Ls = 12 pts, MA Maneuvers/Skills = 20 pts; Total = 104 pts. That's reasonable to me. you could also drop to a 4 SPD and buy 4 more Sweep Ls (to do 8 attacks instead of 6)... that would be a net change of 104 - 20 (SPD) + 8 (SwLs) = 92 pts.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

I also disagree with the blocks as a focus for a couple of reasons. First' date=' by that logic if they were holding a 2'x2' piece of wood or a 6"x6" piece of wood there would be no difference in penalty. Second, since the assistants are stationary you could in theory replace them with board holding devices, which then their status as foci comes into question. Third, if the assistants were trying to not have the boards hit while using them as weapons the -2 would probably be appropriate, but some accomodation for size should be made at some point. If I were trying to hit a broadsword or a dagger I would imagine I would have an easier time hitting the sword. Also, in the description for target size it states the modifier should be used for objects which have no DCV themselves.[/quote']

Realistically, absolutely, but Hero System, nor any other RPG for that matter, is at all realistic.

 

So, I'm going to go with the 5 SPD x 6 attacks with a DCV of 3. Assuming a base OCV of 7 for these guys, to hit with a 16- (they never missed, although every hit didn't break a board, and I'm going for a minimum level to represent this):

 

Of course, they WAY above normal characteristic maxima, so unless boardbreaking is a superhuman feat, this doesn't translate well. As far as how many levels for a black belt, it's officially zero. All you need is the required 10 points in maneuvers and a KS: Your Martial Art 8- (plus any required Skills or WF of the style). Again, this isn't realistic, but it's also a game.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

4 speed, and loooots of sweeps, plus they held an action to start?

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Maybe it's just a contest of PS: Kicking Stuff. (I mean, it isn't actually combat or anything.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Once again, work has helped me think (for some reason, I think better while at work... must be a survival reaction to having such a mind-numbing job).

 

Here's how I'd stat this whole thing out in Hero:

 

PS: Board Breaking (optionally based on DEX)

 

For freestyle breaking, you must spend a minimum of 1 day working on a routine. You get normal bonuses for taking extra time (this time represents organizing the routine and practicing with it, then retuning everything and practicing more). Taking a month or more certianly wouldn't hurt, but longer is probably just a waste of time (you either have the talent or you don't). For each point you make this roll by, you gain +2 OCV on every strike made during the routine. Normal rules for striking apply during the routine, so if you want to strike more than one target during you Phase, you'll need to Sweep or Move By. Having a DEX of 13-17, a PS: Board Breaking 16- and spending a month on your routine will give you an OCV of 19 (minus penalties for Sweep), easily allowing you to handle up to 5-7 hits per Phase against DCV 4 targets. The skill at that level would cost only 7 points. With a SPD of 4, that allows 15-21 strikes in 8 seconds. Each additional level of the PS effectively gives you an extra strike per Phase during the routine.

 

I'd assume such a Skill sould also grant some kind of bonus to other board breaking activities, but I'm not sure how to fairly adjucate it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks

 

Dust Raven' date=' I just got done reading about Block as part of my HERO learning process, and it said that any Power with No Range may be Blocked, [i']unless the GM rules otherwise[/i]. That includes not only punches, but melee weapons, many maneuvers, etcetera.

 

If I'm wrong on that, I may need another cup of coffee.

I actually define two variants of the No Range Limitation:

• No Range (Ranged)
  
• No Range (HTH)

They have exactly the same cost. The difference is basically that one is treated exactly like any other HTH attack in terms of blocking, CSLs, Damage Shield, etc., and the other is treated exactly like a ranged attack that nevertheless cannot be used beyond normal HTH reach.

 

I detailed this more in the thread about having to touch your target. Sorry, but I am too lazy to write it all out again or find you a link to that other thread.