Is missile deflection needed?

[MitchellS]

I was thinking about missile deflection today. It seems like MD basically operates in the same way as a block maneuver. It's an attack action, can be aborted to, and basically ends the character's phase in the same way a block does. Wouldn't it just make more sense to include a "ranged" block in the combat maneuvers list and do away with missile deflection entirely?

 

I could see a Ranged Block maneuver covering just as many possible special effects as missile deflection. Everything from the classic eb vrs eb, to stepping out of the way, to just being so tough that it bounces off your body if you have time to angle and brace. It could also be used instead of the new rule for diving for cover from a non-ae attack.

 

I do agree that there is a place for missile reflection in the game [and it should be its own power] but I think missile deflection is really just a carry-over power from earlier editions and can easily be done away with. Opinions?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I both agree and disagree. I'm inclined to keep missile deflection, but I'm torn between it as a power or using it as a talent. In any case, having engaged in actual missile deflection in real life, I can say with some authority that it should cost points for the ability... Its not hard to learn how to deflect thrown attacks, but anything else is a tin plated b*tch kitty.

I do think that it should efectively work as an adder for block rather than being a seperate maneuver however... its a house rule change that many already play with, and make a lot of sense. That way, for instance, your Jedi can alternate between deflecting blaster bolts and blocking HtH attacks in the same action, as long as he's willing to take the cumulative penalties. It would also alow for the "Brick Block" (i.e. standing there and taking it) to work against any incoming attacks, not making an arbritray distinction between ranged and HtH attacks.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Missile deflection should have a cost associated with it. I'm not sure I like the current cost structure, though. It's one of those powers that doesn't scale well in the higher-point campaigns. We once toyed with the idea of making it scale according to the DC's of the attack but we couldn't come up with a satisfactory structure. One that came close was base 10pts to deflect 6DC, +1DC for 5 pts; keeping the roll but eliminating the -2 OCV cumulative penalty for additional deflects.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

In any case' date=' having engaged in actual missile deflection in real life, I can say with some authority that it should cost points for the ability... Its not hard to learn how to deflect thrown attacks, but anything else is a tin plated b*tch kitty.[/quote']

Have you done much dive for cover in real life? Rolling with the blow? I think we must assume that characters are larger-than-life when it comes to things like that.

 

I do think that it should efectively work as an adder for block rather than being a seperate maneuver however... its a house rule change that many already play with, and make a lot of sense. That way, for instance, your Jedi can alternate between deflecting blaster bolts and blocking HtH attacks in the same action, as long as he's willing to take the cumulative penalties. It would also alow for the "Brick Block" (i.e. standing there and taking it) to work against any incoming attacks, not making an arbritray distinction between ranged and HtH attacks.

I think I'm going to just make it a part of the block maneuver. You can either block HTH or you can block ranged attacks. I'm also going to allow, for an additional -2, and range mods, that someone can block "at range" to protect another person.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Have you done much dive for cover in real life? Rolling with the blow? I think we must assume that characters are larger-than-life when it comes to things like that.

Dive for cover? Only on a few occasions, usually associated with large pyrotechnic ground charges. Roll with Blow? All the freaking time...its stock in trade for fight choreography. As well as Pulling your Punch and Club Weapon.

 

 

I think I'm going to just make it a part of the block maneuver. You can either block HTH or you can block ranged attacks. I'm also going to allow' date=' for an additional -2, and range mods, that someone can block "at range" to protect another person.[/quote']

Your campaign, your call.

Part of the Fianna training course I put together for my guild involved learning some of the classic ancient Irish spear feats, which involves deflecting, catching, and returning thrown javelins at the opponents. I already knew most of the techniques, because that was the kind of geek I was as a teenager, but some of the folk took quite a long time to learn even the basics. I'm reasonably skilled and quite crazy and I've never been able to reliabily deflect anything faster than a thrown weapon.

Our fianna trial, which involved having one ankle tied to a stake in the ground while 9 guys throw javelins at you (padded... I'm not quite THAT crazy) and you have to evade or block all of them with only a 3 foot hardwood rod was a lot more difficult. Even so, by the time we got to the point where we felt ready to try it there were 3 of us who passed first time out.

 

I certainly think there should be some factor other than a minor penalty to be able to block gunfire or laser beams.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I certainly think there should be some factor other than a minor penalty to be able to block gunfire or laser beams.

Why? There's no factor other than penalty to block Mjolnir. No factor other than penalty to block a lightsaber. No factor other than penalty to block Stormbringer. No factor other than penalty to dodge gunfire or laser beams. No factor other penaty to dive for cover from gunfire or laser beams. Why should missile deflection be different; other then the fact that it has been that way for 24 years and is ingrained in our minds?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Why? There's no factor other than penalty to block Mjolnir. No factor other than penalty to block a lightsaber. No factor other than penalty to block Stormbringer. No factor other than penalty to dodge gunfire or laser beams. No factor other penaty to dive for cover from gunfire or laser beams. Why should missile deflection be different; other then the fact that it has been that way for 24 years and is ingrained in our minds?

 

I'm one of those kinda twitchy gamer types who started trying to learn how to do all the things I was gaming about around the time I hit puberty, so I tend to base my opinions off my own expericences and extrapolating past my own "skill level" to see how things work. Its not an ingrained thing with me. It's a matter that it takes a lot of effort to learn, which seems to imply a greater cost in points.

If you realize that in real fighting, most "blocks" are more in the nature of deflection anyway (what most of us involved with ancient combat styles call parrying), I think that I'd have a REMOTE chance of blocking Mjolnir HtH (if it connceted solidly with either my weapon or me, I'd be toast, and Thor has about a bazillion more CV than I do, but I've redirected blows that would have shattered my blade had I tried to stop them...similar principle), No chance against a lightsaber unless I had something that was proof against its AVLD (like another lightsaber) in which case it'd be like a uber-high stakes shinai fight. Stormbringer wouldn't be a problem, unless it hit me, which Elric would have a prety good chance of doing (I'd give him a pretty wicked set of skills, but the sword itself doesn't do all that much beyond a normal sword unless it actually touches flesh... then you die, which would be the probable long term outcome).

Dodge and Dive for Cover are a bit different and work OK, if a bit cinematicly. It really is harder to hit a target who's engaged in active evasion. Play paintball sometime to get a feel for both moves. I still don't completely agree with the 5th edition DfC that allows you to automatically evade an attack if you make your roll. I tend to consider a DfC maneuver to give the same bonus as a dodge if used against non AoE attacks, plus the possibility of extra cover to compensate for the possibility of failure and the prone condition that follows. Except in the case of fairly low velocity projectiles, its really, really hard to deliberately block ranged attacks. Anything moving so fast you can't track it with your available sences, basically.

In all cases tho, this being HERO, YMMV. It's up to the feel of game you're aiming for, the genre you play, and the GM's call.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I was thinking about missile deflection today. It seems like MD basically operates in the same way as a block maneuver. It's an attack action, can be aborted to, and basically ends the character's phase in the same way a block does. Wouldn't it just make more sense to include a "ranged" block in the combat maneuvers list and do away with missile deflection entirely?

 

I could see a Ranged Block maneuver covering just as many possible special effects as missile deflection. Everything from the classic eb vrs eb, to stepping out of the way, to just being so tough that it bounces off your body if you have time to angle and brace. It could also be used instead of the new rule for diving for cover from a non-ae attack.

 

I do agree that there is a place for missile reflection in the game [and it should be its own power] but I think missile deflection is really just a carry-over power from earlier editions and can easily be done away with. Opinions?

 

In my opinion, it takes special training and effort to learn to deflect missiles, above and beyone mere combat prowess. For example, I've been a practitioner of Jeet Kune Do for sixteen years now, and although I've been trained to block fists, feet, knives, swords, staves, you name it, I certainly can't deflect arrows or crossbow bolts.

 

Deflecting thrown objects is easier, but not all that much easier. Anyone can deflact a basketball, but almost no one can consistently deflect a thrown dagger, and since Missile Deflection pertains mainly to combat, not sports, I have to go with the more difficult assumption.

 

My final word is -- no, Missile Deflection is too powerful and rare to be made into a standard maneuver. It's really hard to do, and in real life, almost no one can do it, if anyone actually COULD in a combat situation. MitchellS, you may play HERO in the supers genre, but I use HERO to play more low-powered games, which is why I don't condone making characters' starting abilities too powerful for "free".

 

Standard maneuver means everyone can use it, so I'd much prefer it to stay as a Power.

[casualplayer]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

You mean 100% Damage Reduction Requires a Skill Roll? Nah, I hate that power. Ditch it.

 

It's a bah-roken power. Blame Wonder Woman and Captain America.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

In my opinion, it takes special training and effort to learn to deflect missiles, above and beyone mere combat prowess. For example, I've been a practitioner of Jeet Kune Do for sixteen years now, and although I've been trained to block fists, feet, knives, swords, staves, you name it, I certainly can't deflect arrows or crossbow bolts.

 

Deflecting thrown objects is easier, but not all that much easier. Anyone can deflact a basketball, but almost no one can consistently deflect a thrown dagger, and since Missile Deflection pertains mainly to combat, not sports, I have to go with the more difficult assumption.

The game is not designed to represent real life action. In real life very few people can do any of the things a heroic character can. I strongly oppose anyone who wants to use "real life" as a basis for what characters do in books, movies, comics, or any other form of entertainment.

 

My final word is -- no, Missile Deflection is too powerful and rare to be made into a standard maneuver. It's really hard to do, and in real life, almost no one can do it, if anyone actually COULD in a combat situation. MitchellS, you may play HERO in the supers genre, but I use HERO to play more low-powered games, which is why I don't condone making characters' starting abilities too powerful for "free".

Ranged blocking is more powerful than a standard block? Sweep? Rapid-fire? Dive for cover? Roll with the blow? Haymaker? Rapid-fire and sweep alone are almost more powerful than anything else in the entire game.

 

I think most people forget that a great many of the maneuvers in 5Er are "optional," not standard. An expanded block easily fits that category and is no more inbalancing than any of the others I listed above.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

The game is not designed to represent real life action. In real life very few people can do any of the things a heroic character can. I strongly oppose anyone who wants to use "real life" as a basis for what characters do in books, movies, comics, or any other form of entertainment.

 

 

Ranged blocking is more powerful than a standard block? Sweep? Rapid-fire? Dive for cover? Roll with the blow? Haymaker? Rapid-fire and sweep alone are almost more powerful than anything else in the entire game.

 

I think most people forget that a great many of the maneuvers in 5Er are "optional," not standard. An expanded block easily fits that category and is no more inbalancing than any of the others I listed above.

 

It's absolutely untrue that the game is not designed to represent real-life action. Three-quarters of 5ER, including the Powers section, which can be used to represent abilites of guns, vehicles, computers, and the like, simulates real life very closely. Not perfectly, mind you -- and the potential is THERE to create characters and items that use rubber science or are supernatural in nature -- but 5ER itself actually uses the word simulate on many occasions as part of examples.

 

HERO is the "Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit". You say HERO is supposed to automatically allow players to be larger than life, but I disagree. If you want to be larger than life, the GM assigns far more Character Points for your use, and you select special Powers to SIMULATE the fact that you are a powerful superhero.

 

Punches, driving a car, climbing a building, jumping over a pit, swinging on a vine, having a fine meal, engaging in a swordfight, seducing a shopkeeper -- all those things can be simulated with some degree of accuracy in HERO. The supernatural abilities -- such as DEFLECTING MISSILES -- are marked and priced to show that they're supernatural.

 

If HERo is to be used to represent any genre, you can't assume that humans are automatically able to do supernatural things just because it's a game. I don't think anyone can argue against the fact that Missile Deflection counts as a rare and valuable Power, and should be treated as such.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Like I said before...If it works for you then play it that way. Personally, I'm with Black Lotus in that I do model my games off of real life to a great degree... the one common trait to all the manuevers listed is that I have and can do them. He and I both fall into the "skilled combatant" category, and most of the standard and optional maneuvers aren't that hard to do (tho they may be hard to do WELL). Missile deflection, or blocking a Ranged attack, as you put it, is very hard to do. If you don't agree, then house rule it away in your game. simple.

 

For a realistic campaign, I'd actually be inclined to make "Combatant" a skill or talent, around 5 points in cost, that allows most of the combat maneuvers to be performed without taking a -3 penalty for lack of familiarity. I've found that MOST of the combat maneuvers are considerably less effective in RL unless you have some basic skill and experience with real fighting conditions. I've fough some fairly high ranking martial artists before whom I've dismantled just becasue I have more actual blood and bones experience with actual fighting... they may be able to do katas like a demon, but if they don't have much real life experience with controlling their adrenaline rushes and fighting through pain they can get hosed quick. My last Sensei used to use me as an example of intensity, focus and power to the class... She asked the class if they'd rather face me or a fellow student 2 belts higher than myself in a spar. I was universally more feared, because the class had seen that I wasn't just doing the forms. Granted... this was the third style I'd stiudied, so I had a lot more experience than my belt suggested, but even so, light contact full pad sparring doesn't really prepare you for the realities of combat. The first time I broke my nose in a fight, I was Stunned, blinded by the pain and knocked flat. The 15th time it happened, I reached up, reset my nose and smiled at the guy who broke it.

Its all a matter of the type of game you run, in the end. I run very realistic games because I know realistic combat. I can run very cinematic games, because I'm well familiar with the genre, but it takes a bit of suspension of disbelief.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Oh...and lest anyone accuse me of bragging....

I also tusseled with a shaved, tanned bodybuilder type who looked like Hercules and I thought was a muscle beach blowhard type. I'm your classic tall wirey type. Sometime later when I was nursing my bruises and broken bones, I found out he was a former Navy Seal and professional Wu Shu instructor and competitor. Broke 3 ribs wth a palm strike that started MAYBE 4" from my body. He was a friend's roommate. We laughed about it later, and I stopped calling him a member of Clan MacFabio.

 

I know I'm not indestructible, and not a super stud, but I have a pretty broad base of experience to work from.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I was thinking about missile deflection today. It seems like MD basically operates in the same way as a block maneuver. It's an attack action, can be aborted to, and basically ends the character's phase in the same way a block does. Wouldn't it just make more sense to include a "ranged" block in the combat maneuvers list and do away with missile deflection entirely?

 

I could see a Ranged Block maneuver covering just as many possible special effects as missile deflection. Everything from the classic eb vrs eb, to stepping out of the way, to just being so tough that it bounces off your body if you have time to angle and brace. It could also be used instead of the new rule for diving for cover from a non-ae attack.

 

I do agree that there is a place for missile reflection in the game [and it should be its own power] but I think missile deflection is really just a carry-over power from earlier editions and can easily be done away with. Opinions?

 

I would agree with that partially. Missile Deflection is a platypus of a Power, and really should be a Martial Manuever at it's most basic level.

 

 

The really odd thing about Missile Deflection though is that it's costing is based on SFX, which is pretty silly considering the general approach to base mechanics and SFX in the HERO System.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I would agree with that partially. Missile Deflection is a platypus of a Power, and really should be a Martial Manuever at it's most basic level.

 

 

The really odd thing about Missile Deflection though is that it's costing is based on SFX, which is pretty silly considering the general approach to base mechanics and SFX in the HERO System.

Yeah, making it a 4 point martial art for those reluctant to allow it for free would make sense as well. I'll have to consider that more carefully. Thanks.

[JmOz]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

As was said above, there is a problem with the power when you consider that itis F/X based (Why should my archer character be effected by a power that laser boy, who has a similar MP, is not)

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I prefer the old missile deflection rules and will keep using them in my campaign, but there definite limits

 

I tend to not allow missile deflection at all, except for things like Phalanx systems and higher tech equivilants, or high level magic

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

As was said above' date=' there is a problem with the power when you consider that itis F/X based (Why should my archer character be effected by a power that laser boy, who has a similar MP, is not)[/quote']

 

Well, a character can deflect missiles in many different ways. Here are a few examples.

 

-- Jedi's Lightsaber

 

-- Knight's Shield

 

-- Ninja's Steel Gauntlet

 

-- Zen Master's Bare Hands

 

-- MegaPowerGuy's "Deflector Shield"

 

-- Magneto's Magnetic Abilities

 

So... yeah. You have to describe what you use to deflect the missiles, and how you do it. Makes sense to me. Obviously it's easier to block bullets if you're Magneto than if you're the Zen Master, so you buy the Power at a higher level for Magneto.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I've kinda thought that odd for quite a while as well.

I don't mind SFX driven powers, but they don't fit with the rest of the system, 'tis true.

While a martial maneuver would work, costing MD as a talent works equally well, IMO. Both work better in heroic games or for skill based deflection rather than the "100% Damage Reduction, RSR" mentioned above (aka the Brick trick version)

One thought would be to make MD a flat cost ability but base it's use in game on target Senses. This would put it in line a bit more with "reality"

Just a thought, not sure how it'd play out

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Well, a character can deflect missiles in many different ways. Here are a few examples.

 

-- Jedi's Lightsaber

 

-- Knight's Shield

 

-- Ninja's Steel Gauntlet

 

-- Zen Master's Bare Hands

 

-- MegaPowerGuy's "Deflector Shield"

 

-- Magneto's Magnetic Abilities

 

So... yeah. You have to describe what you use to deflect the missiles, and how you do it. Makes sense to me. Obviously it's easier to block bullets if you're Magneto than if you're the Zen Master, so you buy the Power at a higher level for Magneto.

 

I'm with you, but to get where they're coming from, look at it thusly...

The system as it currently stands, is there because, for just the reasons you mentioned, it works, and makes logical sense.

Mechanically, however, it is the ONLY power that the cost is based on SFX.

A 2d6 RKA laser costs exactly the same amount as a 2D6 RKA gun and as much as a 2D6 RKA javelin.

Yet it costs different amounts to deflect them.

None of the RKA's get an advantage or limitation to reflect the difficulty or ease in deflecting them.

Thus, systemically, Missile Deflection is something of a Rules Platypus

[JmOz]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Well, a character can deflect missiles in many different ways. Here are a few examples.

 

-- Jedi's Lightsaber

 

-- Knight's Shield

 

-- Ninja's Steel Gauntlet

 

-- Zen Master's Bare Hands

 

-- MegaPowerGuy's "Deflector Shield"

 

-- Magneto's Magnetic Abilities

 

So... yeah. You have to describe what you use to deflect the missiles, and how you do it. Makes sense to me. Obviously it's easier to block bullets if you're Magneto than if you're the Zen Master, so you buy the Power at a higher level for Magneto.

 

 

Two characters are pulled through time and receive magic items, of a similar nature

 

One is an Archer from a world of fantacy, another is a "space Cop" from a pulp sci fi game

 

The archer receives a Magic Bow, that never runs out of arrows

 

The Space Cop receives a version of his Laser Blaster that will never run out of power

 

Both Powers are built as follows

2d6 RKA, 0 End, OAF

 

A character has to spend ALOT more to deflect space cop's Laser Blaster than Archer's Bow

 

Not quite fair, considering both have spent the same number of points on the power

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I was running some options. I think I'm going to stick with "ranged" block as being an optional aspect of the regular block maneuver. And then I'm going to add 2 "ranged" block martial arts. The first will just be an improved ranged block [working the same was as martial block works for regular block] and the second being a ranged block which is usuable at range [very much like a ranged disarm]. So the optional "ranged" block will not have an "at range" aspect to it. Only the purchased martial arts version will.

[nexus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I'm a bit confused. Will this "ranged block" manuver effect only thrown object or any ranged attacks?

 

I could see everyone being able to at least try to block a thrown object. Peopel do it all the time, its called baseball. But I can't see everyone try to deflect arrows, bullets or lasers without some kind of sfx/background driven reason justification.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I'm a bit confused. Will this "ranged block" manuver effect only thrown object or any ranged attacks?

 

I could see everyone being able to at least try to block a thrown object. Peopel do it all the time, its called baseball. But I can't see everyone try to deflect arrows, bullets or lasers without some kind of sfx/background driven reason justification.

The ranged block would block all ranged attacks just as a hth block blocks all hth attacks. It makes no different in hth whether you're blocking Mjolnir or Aunt May's slap. The same for a ranged attack. As was shown above the sfx are unimportant to the nature of the attack.

 

As far as how they block the attack, the effect can be anything from a brick twisting his body to bounce it off, to someone shooting the attack out of the air, to someone catching the thrown object, to an energy blaster vrs energy blaster block, to someone just picking up a manhole cover to keep from getting shot as he moves. It's really limitless.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I'm with you, but to get where they're coming from, look at it thusly...

The system as it currently stands, is there because, for just the reasons you mentioned, it works, and makes logical sense.

Mechanically, however, it is the ONLY power that the cost is based on SFX.

A 2d6 RKA laser costs exactly the same amount as a 2D6 RKA gun and as much as a 2D6 RKA javelin.

Yet it costs different amounts to deflect them.

None of the RKA's get an advantage or limitation to reflect the difficulty or ease in deflecting them.

Thus, systemically, Missile Deflection is something of a Rules Platypus

That's always been my biggest beef with Missile Deflection/Reflection too. Thrown objects and arrows should get a price break to represent the increased likelihood of their being Deflected.