Is missile deflection needed?

[nexus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

The ranged block would block all ranged attacks just as a hth block blocks all hth attacks. It makes no different in hth whether you're blocking Mjolnir or Aunt May's slap. The same for a ranged attack. As was shown above the sfx are unimportant to the nature of the attack.

 

As far as how they block the attack, the effect can be anything from a brick twisting his body to bounce it off, to someone shooting the attack out of the air, to someone catching the thrown object, to an energy blaster vrs energy blaster block, to someone just picking up a manhole cover to keep from getting shot as he moves. It's really limitless.

 

So a normal, untrained human would have a chance of swatting a bullet out of the air? And if the firere was another untrained human, he'd have a fair chance of doing so? I see your reasoning but I think its a bit flawed.

 

Well, your game, your call.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

See, that's one of the reasons my gaming group was trying to come up with a different costing mechanic -- determining the cost by FX doesn't make sense relative to the rest of the system operating independent of FX...

[nexus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Maybe give Missile Deflection a base cost and apply limitations based on what it can deflect?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

The ranged block would block all ranged attacks just as a hth block blocks all hth attacks. It makes no different in hth whether you're blocking Mjolnir or Aunt May's slap. The same for a ranged attack. As was shown above the sfx are unimportant to the nature of the attack.

 

There's just the biggest difference in the world between blocking a punch and blocking a bullet.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Maybe give Missile Deflection a base cost and apply limitations based on what it can deflect?

The problem is the attacks would need to get the limitation based on their special effects, not MD. If a 2d6 arrow is easier to deflect then a 2d6 laser then the arrow should get the limitation. Think it of it like the beam limitation. A bullet is purchase beam because it can't be spread. I bullet would also need to be bought with a "bullet" limitation because it can be deflected easier than a laser. All of a sudden the "can be missile deflected" limitation takes on a whole new meaning. Of course that just adds more complications to an already complex game.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

There's just the biggest difference in the world between blocking a punch and blocking a bullet.

Not in game terms there isn't. They are both just aspects of damage.

[nexus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

The problem is the attacks would need to get the limitation based on their special effects' date=' not MD. If a 2d6 arrow is easier to deflect then a 2d6 laser then the arrow should get the limitation. Think it of it like the beam limitation. A bullet is purchase beam because it can't be spread. I bullet would also need to be bought with a "bullet" limitation because it can be deflected easier than a laser. All of a sudden the "can be missile deflected" limitation takes on a whole new meaning. Of course that just adds more complications to an already complex game.[/quote']

 

I meant like this. (I'm just pulling number out of the air for sake of example)

 

Missile Deflection:20 Points The character can attempt a block manuver against any ranged attack

 

If your Deflection only worked against, say Thrown Objects, you might get a

-1 Limitation for it (barring campaign differences) of course.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Appologies if this has already been covered...

 

These are just some of my random thoughts on the subject.

 

I that the ability to apply the Block mechanic vs. Ranged attacks does need some type of cost structure involved and other board members have even posted proposed tweaks to the current adder based system. Some 'extra' training has to be involved to allow a Professional Boxer to Block arrows from a bow. The exact way this is expressed as a cost is certainly up for debate but it should not be free for everyone.

 

There already are some existing mechanics for determining what defensive manuevers can be applied to an attack. (*If the advantages are applied to HTH attacks).

• AOE 1 hex: Can't be dodged but can be escaped with DFC or Block*.
  
• Indirect: Can't be Blocked but can be dodged*.
  
• IPE: If the attack can't be percieved by the defender, the defender can't take a defensive action in response to the attack.
  
• Damage Shield: *This requires the higher level of DS to be effective and is usually sfx dependent (examples: Human Torch punching someone, a Jedi attacking someone with a Lightsaber. What is being used to 'Block' these attacks is extremely important)
  

Steve L. has ruled that the above rule for Indirect does NOT apply to Missle Deflection which seems a bit strange (and seems to make the HTH rule examples in USPD and UBrick be sfx based rulings intead of 'core' rules).

 

HM

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Not in game terms there isn't. They are both just aspects of damage.

 

Sigh. It's true, if you look at everything in terms of naked numbers, phrases, formulae, and nothing else there are many flaws in any gaming system. Fortunately, human beings have the ability to think in vague terms.

 

I can't quite find the words to explain to you why it's not OK for everyone to be able to Block bullets, even if it would make more sense in game terms. I think you have to realize, MitchellS, that no gaming system is ever perfect, especially one that is as generic as HERO. Also, I think it works fine as-is. If your problem is that some Ranged Attacks should be easier to Block than others and that the rules should reflect that, I recommend you create new advantages for your Ranged attacks. For example: "Muscle-Powered" might be a Disadvantage for knives and Shuriken, "Arrow" might be a -0 Advantage for any weapon for which no other Disad or Ad is bought, "Bullet" might be an Advantage for Ranged attacks which fire very quickly, and "Instantaneous" might describe a laser weapon.

 

*shrug* I DO know that no one, including superheroes, should get Missile Deflection for free. In any form.

[specks]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Can't wait to use a block maneuver and stop that incoming MX Missile with my quarterstaff. :D

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Can't wait to use a block maneuver and stop that incoming MX Missile with my quarterstaff. :D

People block Mjolnir with much less, and it strikes harder than an MX missile.

 

And it makes as much sense as knowing that because you bought 15 points of MD OAF staff you can block it too.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

People block Mjolnir with much less, and it strikes harder than an MX missile.

 

And it makes as much sense as knowing that because you bought 15 points of MD OAF staff you can block it too.

 

Mjollnir was Thor's hammer from ancient Greek mythology, right?

 

Well, whatever it is, if the GM rules it's too powerful to be blocked by a mere staff or sword, then all he has to do is ad-hoc something to reflect that. If you're so insecure in your ability as a GM that you feel your decisions must always be solidly backed up by the official rules, you need to loosen up and realize that you sometimes have to think outside of the box. Overhauling the current system, which works fine 90% of the time, isn't the answer.

 

For example, you COULD rule that a weapon (or arm) used to block another weapon takes a certain amount of damage in some situations. In this case, perhaps Mjollnir would smash that weak staff or sword in a single hit.

 

*shrug* I've never run into any problems at all with the Missile Deflection rules, so I'm still baffled at this. Then again, when something needs ad-hocing, I just ad-hoc it and move on.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Mjollnir was Thor's hammer from ancient Greek mythology, right?

 

Well, whatever it is, if the GM rules it's too powerful to be blocked by a mere staff or sword, then all he has to do is ad-hoc something to reflect that. If you're so insecure in your ability as a GM that you feel your decisions must always be solidly backed up by the official rules, you need to loosen up and realize that you sometimes have to think outside of the box. Overhauling the current system, which works fine 90% of the time, isn't the answer.

 

For example, you COULD rule that a weapon (or arm) used to block another weapon takes a certain amount of damage in some situations. In this case, perhaps Mjollnir would smash that weak staff or sword in a single hit.

 

*shrug* I've never run into any problems at all with the Missile Deflection rules, so I'm still baffled at this. Then again, when something needs ad-hocing, I just ad-hoc it and move on.

While any GM can decide to change the rules in mid-stride, the rules are there for a reason. A block covers a lot of different special effects and actions. A block can also represent just stepping to the side of an attack so that it misses. Gee, you can step away from a ranged attack too. Funny how that works.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

While any GM can decide to change the rules in mid-stride' date=' the rules are there for a reason. A block covers a lot of different special effects and actions. A block can also represent just stepping to the side of an attack so that it misses. Gee, you can step away from a ranged attack too. Funny how that works. [/quote']

 

I'm sorry, but I believe, "stepping aside" from Ranged attacks is already covered by Dodge (self-explanatory maneuver) and Duck for Cover. Read the text. Block only works for Blocking something, not getting out of its way, which is why a Shield adds to Blocking but not Dodging.

 

Block: intervene in the path of the attack, stopping it

Dodge: avoid the attack by moving quickly

Dive for Cover: Go all-out getting to a defensive positon

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I feel like even though MD looks like a ranged block, it should cost more and be special.

 

And while the Fx are diffrent, it really matters most depeneding on genre

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I feel like even though MD looks like a ranged block, it should cost more and be special.

 

And while the Fx are diffrent, it really matters most depeneding on genre

 

Yeah, in the kind of campaigns I run, everyone is almost always Heroic or Powerful Heroic. I also seldom, if ever, allow PCs to purchase Powers of their own; instead they buy weapons, items, and armor.

 

The only time characters will be getting Powers in my campaign is when I design one to be a Talent. Such as a "Zen Archery" Talent as a limited Deflect Missiles.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

well like in a low-powered jedi one shot, everyone will have a lightsaber and MD, in a diffrent game, like historical or something, no one should be able to block bullets

[zornwil]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Maybe I missed it, but what about the Reflection part?

 

Good discussion. I tend to agree that Deflection as a power is unnecessary. There have been a lot of conversations around why people can't do "x" with Deflection, and all the messiness related to its restriction methods. I don't know if a manuever is the right way or not but might be. One thing does that MD doesn't do which Block does, I'll point out, is alter the order of action in combat, so that has to be folded in somewhere.

[Vondy]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I've kinda thought that odd for quite a while as well.

I don't mind SFX driven powers, but they don't fit with the rest of the system, 'tis true.

While a martial maneuver would work, costing MD as a talent works equally well, IMO. Both work better in heroic games or for skill based deflection rather than the "100% Damage Reduction, RSR" mentioned above (aka the Brick trick version)

One thought would be to make MD a flat cost ability but base it's use in game on target Senses. This would put it in line a bit more with "reality"

Just a thought, not sure how it'd play out

 

What about giving it a base cost at the highest ability level and applying standardized lims for the things it doesn't block? For instance:

 

20 Points Missile Defelection

-0 All Attacks

-1/2 No energy attacks

-1 No energy attacks or fast moving projectiles

-2 Muscle Power Projectiles Only

 

This could be tailored for specific FX beyond the traditional list.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Von D-man, i think you're on the right track. I'm gonna try experimenting with that in my upcoming 1 shot.

[nexus]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

What about giving it a base cost at the highest ability level and applying standardized lims for the things it doesn't block? For instance:

 

20 Points Missile Defelection

-0 All Attacks

-1/2 No energy attacks

-1 No energy attacks or fast moving projectiles

-2 Muscle Power Projectiles Only

 

This could be tailored for specific FX beyond the traditional list.

 

I suggested something like this awhile back. :/

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

sorry, i must not have saw it

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

You mean 100% Damage Reduction Requires a Skill Roll? Nah' date=' I hate that power. Ditch it.[/quote']Hmm. I've meant to do this for a while; maybe now's the time.

 

Missile Deflection: Desolidification (affected by area attacks and other non-deflectable attacks); 0 END (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Extra Time (Half Phase, -1/4), RSR (OCV vs. OCV, no Active Point penalty, -0) (27 Real Points) plus Missile Deflection Power Skill (3 Real Points). Total Cost: 30 Real Points.

 

It's not perfect, but it's reasonably close, I think. Am I forgetting any modifiers?

 

I also think that many instances of Missile Deflection should have a penalty for the DCs of the incoming attack, but then I also think many instances of Block should have a penalty for the DCs of the incoming attack.

[proditor]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

Why? There's no factor other than penalty to block Mjolnir. No factor other than penalty to block a lightsaber. No factor other than penalty to block Stormbringer. No factor other than penalty to dodge gunfire or laser beams. No factor other penaty to dive for cover from gunfire or laser beams. Why should missile deflection be different; other then the fact that it has been that way for 24 years and is ingrained in our minds?

But by whose Mjolnir? In my 4e setting, Mjolnir had over 10 levels of OCV that could only be used to counteract Missile Deflection as it just blasted past your feeble attempt to block it. I always had exceptions to the rule.

 

I say leave it as it is and make the appropriate changes to the campaign. Heck, here's an easy but admittedly imperfect fix. All Missile Deflection must take the "Not vs. heavy missiles" limit unless there is a darn good reason not to do so. Now certain attacks can count as "Heavy Missiles" as either a flat cost adder (in balance with flat costs on MD) or as a +1/4 advantage if the GM is really worried that everyone will try and justify their attacks as Heavy.

[zornwil]

Re: Is missile deflection needed?

 

I suggested something like this awhile back. :/

I think the same suggestions tend to recur every so often...no disrespect to any of the authors along the way, but both parallel development and unintentional reuse occur. There's so much info on these boards it's impossible (practically) to organize and retain it (unless of course one really just did that on probably at least a 10 hour a week basis).