Lets cut the crap...

[Fox1]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

The core HERO System gets an A from me.

 

Steve Long's influence on the system gets a D, this affects the supplements far more than the core book so I'm still using a 'A' level system after a few house rules.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I hated the changes from 3rd to 4th. Ended up appreciating most of them and adopting the better portion of them. I hated the changes from 4th to 5th. Appear to have ended up apprecating most of them and adapting the better portion of them. Actually IIRC I wasn't too fond when I discovered what changed in some respects in 3rd - wasn't 3rd where END was "fixed"? (I still disagree with that, but I recognize it's not to be rolled back for a variety of reasons, most of them good ones)

 

I sense a personal trend...

 

PS - this was not at all a reflection on Fox1's own opinions, just a musing triggered by them, that's all.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I hated the changes from 3rd to 4th. Ended up appreciating most of them and adopting the better portion of them. I hated the changes from 4th to 5th. Appear to have ended up apprecating most of them and adapting the better portion of them. Actually IIRC I wasn't too fond when I discovered what changed in some respects in 3rd - wasn't 3rd where END was "fixed"? (I still disagree with that, but I recognize it's not to be rolled back for a variety of reasons, most of them good ones)

 

I sense a personal trend...

 

PS - this was not at all a reflection on Fox1's own opinions, just a musing triggered by them, that's all.

Hmm. Well, I liked most of the changes from 4th to 5th. Some--like the elimination of Regeneration and the hokey criteria for cumulative Healing it introduced--I could definitely do without, but I have my ways of coping.

 

What I really don't like are most of the FAQ and 5ER changes. I find a great deal of them to be unnecessary, unintuitive, and quite directly against the grain of the whole system up through 5E. That's why I gave 5E and 5ER such different scores.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Unfortunately too small of a percentage of people will every have the chance to learn that because of the unnecessarily steep learning curve and encyclopedia-like look of the book.

 

Of course, Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e requires three 300+ page books to even be able to play the game, to wit, the Monster Manual, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Player's Handbook. And all together, they cost a lot more than HERO 5ER. And they only support the medieval fantasy genre.

 

If people believe the learning curve for HERo is too steep just because all the rules are gathered in a single convenient volume, then they're unable to look at the bigger picture. I mean, come on now.

[Fox1]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Of course' date=' Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e requires [i']three[/i] 300+ page books to even be able to play the game, to wit, the Monster Manual, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Player's Handbook. And all together, they cost a lot more than HERO 5ER. And they only support the medieval fantasy genre.

 

Let's be fair here.

 

One book is for the players and is choke full of spells, one is for the GM, another is a list of critters.

 

To match this in HERO you'd have to buy at least the Core Book, Fantasy Hero, and The Bestiary. And you'd still have a ton of work left to do before you could set down to your first game.

 

I was reminded of this in spades this weekend. We've decided to restart my old Morrow Project game. In most game systems we could have had the characters created and the first adventure done that night.

 

But we're HERO, I'll have to take the week to make all the package deals, equipment load outs, and other goodies before we can start.

 

Good thing the system makes up for it by being really cool otherwise.

 

 

Edit: BTW, I love the large 5th edition core rulebook. I wouldn't have it any other way. Except of course including my house rules

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Hmm. Well' date=' I liked [i']most[/i] of the changes from 4th to 5th. Some--like the elimination of Regeneration and the hokey criteria for cumulative Healing it introduced--I could definitely do without, but I have my ways of coping.

 

What I really don't like are most of the FAQ and 5ER changes. I find a great deal of them to be unnecessary, unintuitive, and quite directly against the grain of the whole system up through 5E. That's why I gave 5E and 5ER such different scores.

But 99% of the FAQ and 5ER new text are just clarifications...

 

 

Actually one thing this ends up saying is that there's actually something to be said for developers/designers who only rarely make judgement calls on questions, and then only for truly "frequent" ones. One objection I do have to the FAQ is that the "F" is not accurate - OTOH, don't get me wrong, as I've stated before, I like the minutiae, I would just like to see it as less official and put into a compendium or whatever, or even remaining in a FAQ, as opposed to the core rules.

 

I'm sympathetic to Steve's plight. I know if I had a game system as rich and popular as HERO I'd want to treat it the same way in terms of detail. But there is a clear trade-off in so doing that. I applaud his answering of questions quite heartily and I think the frequency and thoroughness is and remains a competitive advantage for HERO (sure, other companies do it, not many at all do it in this complete a manner). I think collecting that info into whatever one wants to call the current FAQ is also great. I just draw the line at the core book, it's a matter of opinion on where to place that line.

 

And to be fair, Steve did react in designing 5ER to fans. We pushed in that direction, and I think we all share blame in not really having considered just where that logical direction would end up. Sure, DOJ bears the "real" blame and credit (after all, it's not at all all bad stuff, and I could still see a construction of the book just as big and thick, just to my way of thinking differently structured) as they have the fiscal responsibility, but I think we goaded it and helped make it happen.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Let's be fair here.

 

One book is for the players and is choke full of spells, one is for the GM, another is a list of critters.

 

To match this in HERO you'd have to buy at least the Core Book, Fantasy Hero, and The Bestiary. And you'd still have a ton of work left to do before you could set down to your first game.

 

I was reminded of this in spades this weekend. We've decided to restart my old Morrow Project game. In most game systems we could have had the characters created and the first adventure done that do.

 

But we're HERO, I'll have to take the week to make all the package deals, equipment load outs, and other goodies before we can start.

 

Good thing the system makes up for it by being really cool otherwise.

 

 

Edit: BTW, I love the large 5th edition core rulebook. I wouldn't have it any other way. Except of course including my house rules

Total tangent - why couldn't you reuse the Morrow Project stuff from before? Or was it not HERO/Champions before, or have things changed enough to force the update? Just wondering.

 

On a note related to this discussion, one big reason HERO suits me fine is I put in the same amount of work in any game system - I make a bunch of tweaks, I create a setting, all that. I simply have yet to meet a system I'd run it as it stands from "off the shelf", HERO included, or at least that I would do so for long with (though Savage Worlds looks pretty good, though circumscribed to do only what it does, with less flexibility but less granularity and excellent fluidity in play). An advantage to HERO is the system is in fact reasonably universal so on the whole it's less work when I reuse this system for different purposes, and it responds better to customization than many other systems. And even as much as I might customize it, players have no trouble coming in and playing a game, despite a few heavy changes.

[atlascott]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Zornwill:

 

"On a note related to this discussion, one big reason HERO suits me fine is I put in the same amount of work in any game system - I make a bunch of tweaks, I create a setting, all that. I simply have yet to meet a system I'd run it as it stands from "off the shelf", HERO included, or at least that I would do so for long with (though Savage Worlds looks pretty good, though circumscribed to do only what it does, with less flexibility but less granularity and excellent fluidity in play). "

 

Im with you, I never run anything stright out of the book. But come on! HERO is alot more work that other games, cause you gotta build EVERYTHING. Tweaking a character class or weapons damage in an already-built game world is quite a bit different than having to essentially assemble everything, which is what you have to do ib the HERO system, even if you have a genre book. It is less a tweak than an entire re-write.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

HERO is alot more work that other games' date=' cause you gotta build EVERYTHING. Tweaking a character class or weapons damage in an already-built game world is quite a bit different than having to essentially assemble everything, which is what you have to do ib the HERO system, even if you have a genre book. It is less a tweak than an entire re-write.[/quote']

 

I love building things from scratch. I love it. It's sexy.

 

I agree with all of your points, atlascott, except for the off-the-shelf tweaking bit. It's true that HERO has far more tweaking to be done before you can play, but I find it is more difficult to adequately tweak classes, spells, vehicles and some items in pre-made game settings than in HERO. You obviously are better at tweaking that sort of thing, and for that, I salute you.

[Starlord]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I just don't see where the game is that hard to learn. My wife (no rpging exp.), my oldest son (17, exp. gamer), and my youngest (12) all became fairly proficient after 3-4 sessions. My oldest, who's played D&D for a couple years even commented that there was less to learn than D&D...and pretty much everybody learns D&D at some point or another.

[Fox1]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Total tangent - why couldn't you reuse the Morrow Project stuff from before? Or was it not HERO/Champions before, or have things changed enough to force the update? Just wondering.

 

Lots of changes occurred. Last Morrow Project game was done using DI rules plus "Here There be Tigers".

 

So the package deals basically have to be completely re-written. And then the characters made. That should take me a two or three evenings giving how much free time I have during the week. Or a day on the weekend.

 

I am using a lot from the old game. And all the weapons are already on my website done and ready

[Guzalot]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I just don't see where the game is that hard to learn. My wife (no rpging exp.)' date=' my oldest son (17, exp. gamer), and my youngest (12) all became fairly proficient after 3-4 sessions. My oldest, who's played D&D for a couple years even commented that there was less to learn than D&D...and pretty much everybody learns D&D at some point or another.[/quote']

Once you get the basic mechanics down it's pretty simple. It helps, though, if you have someone with some experience teaching you the game rather than buying a huge book and trying to digest it all by yourself. Sidekick really helped ease the learning curve though and DoJ needs to get it reprinted asap.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I totally agree that how easy you find hero to be, is directly related to how you try to learn it. I picked it up pretty quick, but i had a great GM and a low powered game.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

But 99% of the FAQ and 5ER new text are just clarifications...

 

 

Actually one thing this ends up saying is that there's actually something to be said for developers/designers who only rarely make judgement calls on questions, and then only for truly "frequent" ones. One objection I do have to the FAQ is that the "F" is not accurate - OTOH, don't get me wrong, as I've stated before, I like the minutiae, I would just like to see it as less official and put into a compendium or whatever, or even remaining in a FAQ, as opposed to the core rules.

 

I'm sympathetic to Steve's plight. I know if I had a game system as rich and popular as HERO I'd want to treat it the same way in terms of detail. But there is a clear trade-off in so doing that. I applaud his answering of questions quite heartily and I think the frequency and thoroughness is and remains a competitive advantage for HERO (sure, other companies do it, not many at all do it in this complete a manner). I think collecting that info into whatever one wants to call the current FAQ is also great. I just draw the line at the core book, it's a matter of opinion on where to place that line.

 

And to be fair, Steve did react in designing 5ER to fans. We pushed in that direction, and I think we all share blame in not really having considered just where that logical direction would end up. Sure, DOJ bears the "real" blame and credit (after all, it's not at all all bad stuff, and I could still see a construction of the book just as big and thick, just to my way of thinking differently structured) as they have the fiscal responsibility, but I think we goaded it and helped make it happen.

Oh, I agree completely, really. I love that Steve is there so we can pick his brain. Not that I always feel obligated to go along with his opinion, but I consider it a very valuable asset. Many of the things from the FAQ I even agree with. I didn't say I had a problem with, "all," or even, "most," of the stuff. But the point is that, as you say, it should not have all been stuffed into the core rules. I would even go so far as to say, "complications," rather than, "clarifications."

 

I'm also not trying to place blame on anyone: not Steve Long, not DoJ in general, and not us here on the boards. I am simply stating my opinions about the system, however it got to be the way it did (however, if what you say is true about our pushing the system to go the way it has--and I think you may be right to some degree--maybe we should put a little more care into considering the things we are really arguing about and how they are presented).

 

EDIT: BTW, as time goes on I learn of more and more 5ER changes that don't seem to be simply clarifications. 99%, 98%, 96%....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I just don't see where the game is that hard to learn. My wife (no rpging exp.)' date=' my oldest son (17, exp. gamer), and my youngest (12) all became fairly proficient after 3-4 sessions. My oldest, who's played D&D for a couple years even commented that there was less to learn than D&D...and pretty much everybody learns D&D at some point or another.[/quote']

All I can say is: damn! Mind adopting me into the family? We could discover that I am in fact a distant cousin, or a roomie-uncle twice removed or something.

 

But seriously, I think you are right, as long as perceptions are aligned properly. With an open mind the system is awfully simple to learn. Twisted perceptions, on the other hand, seem to be able to turn it into a complicated, alien nightmare quite easily. I often wonder at this (not to mention my cursing, screaming, and fuming about it ).

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Zornwill:

 

"On a note related to this discussion, one big reason HERO suits me fine is I put in the same amount of work in any game system - I make a bunch of tweaks, I create a setting, all that. I simply have yet to meet a system I'd run it as it stands from "off the shelf", HERO included, or at least that I would do so for long with (though Savage Worlds looks pretty good, though circumscribed to do only what it does, with less flexibility but less granularity and excellent fluidity in play). "

 

Im with you, I never run anything stright out of the book. But come on! HERO is alot more work that other games, cause you gotta build EVERYTHING. Tweaking a character class or weapons damage in an already-built game world is quite a bit different than having to essentially assemble everything, which is what you have to do ib the HERO system, even if you have a genre book. It is less a tweak than an entire re-write.

I was just speaking for myself. I don't run preset worlds pretty much ever, so I end up doing the work anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I just don't see where the game is that hard to learn. My wife (no rpging exp.)' date=' my oldest son (17, exp. gamer), and my youngest (12) all became fairly proficient after 3-4 sessions. My oldest, who's played D&D for a couple years even commented that there was less to learn than D&D...and pretty much everybody learns D&D at some point or another.[/quote']

I can't speak for these days at all fairly, but when I first encountered a D&D game I was completely confused. Of course not having the books didn't help. When I did have them (at which point it was, I believe, the original AD&D set, which I only borrowed, never owned), I thought it was terribly confusing and that was one of the main motivations for drastically changing it. I found Champions in 1983, presumably 2nd edition, to be far less confusing on introduction.

 

But I woulid really not want to compare that too much to today's picture, where HERO is of course more complicated than Champions was and from what I hear d20 is more internally consistent than AD&D was.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Lots of changes occurred. Last Morrow Project game was done using DI rules plus "Here There be Tigers".

 

So the package deals basically have to be completely re-written. And then the characters made. That should take me a two or three evenings giving how much free time I have during the week. Or a day on the weekend.

 

I am using a lot from the old game. And all the weapons are already on my website done and ready

Cool, well, good luck! Do fill us in on how it goes, hope it goes well.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I totally agree that how easy you find hero to be' date=' is directly related to how you try to learn it. I picked it up pretty quick, but i had a great GM and a low powered game.[/quote']

My first Champions GM, and the only one I had before I started GMing, was one of the absolute worst ever (in any system). Good player, terrible GM. He did teach a little but not much, especially as we only played one session and that was only 1-on-1, so I had to learn it mostly on my own as I was the only one who wanted to GM "that superhero game". Good times, though. Anyway, yeah, I don't disagree it'd have been easier, but I don't recall any real learning curve with Champions at all. Actually, it was the first system I really bothered to learn "as is" in depth, I found it more natural than other systems. So I'm very prejudiced from my initial experience. Still, I am very conscious of and accept that the current version is significantly harder to learn for a number of reasons.

 

PS - in large part, the veneer of balance and the consistency in points is what really made me attracted to it. That and the logical damage system. Those made it seem "right" to me. Other systems seemed (and most were) arbitrary and felt like nothing more than a collection of rules...which is how all my early RPG attempts at design were, too. Back, then, though, I wasn't nearly that aware about all these issues.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Oh, I agree completely, really. I love that Steve is there so we can pick his brain. Not that I always feel obligated to go along with his opinion, but I consider it a very valuable asset. Many of the things from the FAQ I even agree with. I didn't say I had a problem with, "all," or even, "most," of the stuff. But the point is that, as you say, it should not have all been stuffed into the core rules. I would even go so far as to say, "complications," rather than, "clarifications."

 

I'm also not trying to place blame on anyone: not Steve Long, not DoJ in general, and not us here on the boards. I am simply stating my opinions about the system, however it got to be the way it did (however, if what you say is true about our pushing the system to go the way it has--and I think you may be right to some degree--maybe we should put a little more care into considering the things we are really arguing about and how they are presented).

 

EDIT: BTW, as time goes on I learn of more and more 5ER changes that don't seem to be simply clarifications. 99%, 98%, 96%....

There was a reason for my wink there...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

There was a reason for my wink there...

Sorry. Missed that. I'm probably taking things way too literally this afternoon. Time to be off, I guess. Argue with you again soon.

[zornwil]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

Sorry. Missed that. I'm probably taking things way too literally this afternoon. Time to be off' date=' I guess. Argue with you again soon. [/quote']

No worries, I thought you might have missed it. Looking forward to arguing or agreeing with you or in-between as the case may be!

[Starlord]

Re: Lets cut the crap...

 

I can't speak for these days at all fairly, but when I first encountered a D&D game I was completely confused. Of course not having the books didn't help. When I did have them (at which point it was, I believe, the original AD&D set, which I only borrowed, never owned), I thought it was terribly confusing and that was one of the main motivations for drastically changing it. I found Champions in 1983, presumably 2nd edition, to be far less confusing on introduction.

 

But I woulid really not want to compare that too much to today's picture, where HERO is of course more complicated than Champions was and from what I hear d20 is more internally consistent than AD&D was.

 

This makes me remember a funny story. I learned D&D in the early 80s with a friend. I don't remember it being very difficult to learn. I do remember though, that when we started finding others who played that there was ALOT of disagreement over the rules. The biggest was HP. If anyone recalls the basic and expert sets have classes and races as the same thing...and another player came over with a 6th level elf who had like 160 hit points! That's cuz the level showed hp as

 

1st level - d8

2nd level - 2d8

3rd level - 3d8

4th level - 4d8

etc...

 

He was adding them exponentially and by 6th level he'd rolled the eight sided die about 20 times! :rofl:

 

I can't believe I still remember that...