How to get them off d20

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Screw the rogue...again.

 

In my humble opinion that just rapes Rogues. If your group does not normally have a Rogue, I guess it is no big deal.

 

Again, just more opinion, but skills in D&D seem like a weak attempt at D&D to be more like Hero. It falls terribly short by once again type-casting characters (class skills). Classes are only good for quick, mindless character creation. As soon as someone wants something more robust, classes start to break down.

 

The fact that so many people create their own Classes and Prestige Classes is proof to me that they want something more robust. Maybe not everyone, but a large group.

 

10 skill levels + INT does not make Rogues shabby. My rules do allow for more branching out for all character classes and allow the CFW classes to at least branch out. I run a skills heavy game, sure we have lots of combat but in the FR game I ran we had loads and loads of noncombat stuff, and the paracombat scenes (running for hours, jumping cliffs, or what the Monk did like say climbing a flying dragon and Black Mambaing its brain.*) Rogues have just as many options of increasing Skills using XP as everyone else and they start higher than any other class. Let us also not forget about the special class abilities and feats they gain. Rogue's rock! Bards on the other hand...require a special type of player to pull off. Jacks of all Trades require careful nurture.

 

*scene in Kill Bill vol2 where the Bride (Mamba) is buried alive and pounds her way out of a coffin. Like this only using one hand to shatter scale, muscle, bone and brain repeatedly on a flying red dragon's head while avoiding claws and sucking up magic missle hits.

 

As to skills being more like HERO, sure. If you want to say lots of skills makes HERO. I disagree since most HERO characters seem to have 30 CP or less in skills. What HERO has is an enormous skill catalog.

 

Finally, I detest and abhor 90% of the Prestige classes I have seen. Including those in the Class books like Sword and Fist. I read and analyze the class with a fine tooth comb before determining if the Prestige Class actually works. Home grown Prestige Classes in my experience are an attempt to powergame by creating a class with Kewl powerz customized just for your PC.

 

Hawksmoor

[shadow_walker]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

Sounds like you need to Warhammer with Hero rules.

 

or make a warhammer drinking game. For every insanity point you get take a shot.

[teh bunneh]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

HERO is just too generic for my tastes in fantasy. I have system favorites for each genre and HERO is not the game I would choose to portray Duke Tyrus the Lord of Reptar's Hold (17th level Half Orc 7th level Fighter/5 Barbarian/6 Ranger/ 1 Divine Champion (Meiliki).

 

If you're having fun, game on brother.

 

But that said, I often want to play something like a great warrior who is also the best guitar player in the land. Multi-class Fighter/Bard? Nah, not interested in spells. Spend 2x the skill points in Play Instrument? Nah, fighters get dick-all for skill points anyway. Create a new class that lets me build the character I want to play? Might as well play Hero.

 

Maybe it's a character flaw on my part, but the old fighter/rogue/mage/cleric thing has always seemed like a straight jacket to me. I'd rather come up with my own character than choose from a list of pre-set options. D&D is not nearly generic enough for my tastes.

 

Bill.

[Nightshade]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

HERO is just too generic for my tastes in fantasy. I have system favorites for each genre and HERO is not the game I would choose to portray Duke Tyrus the Lord of Reptar's Hold (17th level Half Orc 7th level Fighter/5 Barbarian/6 Ranger/ 1 Divine Champion (Meiliki).

 

Hawksmoor

 

Whereas HERO is exactly the system I would use to portray a character that needs 4 classes to define...

 

Nightshade

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

d29 is great for beginers because it's easy to learn and do character creation. For a system that works well for creative people, go HERO

[tesuji]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

I

I am looking for advice to get them off d20 and onto HERO.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Ok let me go against the grain here...

 

First, a short list of odd DND-isms which have not been seen as a problem IN PLAy in your games (tree climbing elephants for instance) almost certainly wont do more than tick your players off and get them into looking for the odd HEROisms if they care enough to try. most likely, it will just tick them off.

 

Second, making the game you are running less fun by throwing DND "scenario problems" at them in play won't show them that HERo is better or DND is worse but will certainly make them wonder about whether your are a good DM. That might solve your problem if they walk away.

 

third, consider that maybe they like D20 and ought to not be looking to change.

 

if the type of game D20 supports is the one they like, what benefit do they have to switch to a large, complex system they are not familiar with?

 

That is the question you must show them an answer to before you get them to really consider switching.

 

So, some pragmatic things...

 

First: DON'T make this an either/or. Don't make this an obvious "you will not get to play the game you like if we switch." Start up a one-off FH game that doesn't clash with your DND as a "trial" for those interested. let the enjoyment and chatting of the players who liked it be your advertising.

 

Second, running head-to-head with DND by making your HERo game a fantasy world or even a fantasy world like Forgotten realms is a bad move. You need to showcase the differences. I might try a scifi one-off or maybe a modern one-off set on a popular TV show they like. At the very least, if you are dead set on fantasy, use a severly different model than a DND world but still one they might have some familiarity with.

 

Your goal initially should not be to show them and challenge them with "see HERo does DND better" but present it more as a "DND does DND fine but how about trying this other thing that DND doesn't fit as well and we use HERo for".

 

Finally, you gotta do a lot of up front work for them. They won't respond as well to HERO is the up front work of learning hero and chargen is all at once in their face before playing and fun ever enters the picture. I would strongly recommend toned down rules, pre0genned characters (perhaps with some customixable bits) for the opening game or two.

 

After some runs under HERO, both you and they will be able to see if its something they are interested in. IMX you will either get thempushing for more info and wanting to tweak their characters more and more (in which case you have a sell) or you will get grumbling about too much work and you know you have a no sell.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

Whereas HERO is exactly the system I would use to portray a character that needs 4 classes to define...

 

Nightshade

 

Meh. Tyrus evolved into needing 4 classes to define. He started out just as a fighter, got more in touch with his orcish berserker side, then found balance in the worhip of Meiliki. If I continued the game Tyrus would have likely ended up as a Chosen.

 

The rest of the party were just as Iconic but no one matched Tyrus for class flipping. They stayed mostly true to their roots, although the wandering wizard Sargen did pick up a level of Bard from his travels. The level was useful given his penchant for magick, stories and maps. It also gave the PC weapon skills the Player really wanted so his precious XP could be spent on a long sword enchanted by the character.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

really, story wise there is nothing wrong with DnD at all. And it is much simpler to make that multiclased charcter since the classes are well defined, as are templates. Unfortnately I'd also agree that this is a flaw, since I myself don't enjoy being strapped down into preset character choices.

 

The problem I have with HERO for such things is how incredibly complex making one non human or non superhero character can be. I took me a week to make 1 dragon that I was satisfied with, when I need about a hundred, and 32 different types. In DnD where dragons are common it would take me about 20 min, but then they wouldn't be *my* dragons, they'd be theirs. I suppose what one could say is use the beastiary, but I don't like the dragon design there either.

 

The hard thing for me is taking characters I designed cinematicaly and conceptually without taking HERO rules into account and making them in HERO. How exactly do I make a power that as circumstantial effects? Create a whole lot of triggers? IF then ____? does it make sense to define a pool of points that dont even define themselves as a power before hitting?

 

Sometimes verbal powers, rather than mathematically derived or processed ones can be a lot simpler and easier.

 

Honestly I have yet to find a system for Fantasy gaming that fits. For now it seems HERO is the best I have.

 

I hope your players enjoy the switchover, if they don't you can always try going back and makig a lot of house rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

Ok let me go against the grain here...

 

**********************************************

 

if the type of game D20 supports is the one they like, what benefit do they have to switch to a large, complex system they are not familiar with?

 

***********************************************

 

Your goal initially should not be to show them and challenge them with "see HERo does DND better" but present it more as a "DND does DND fine but how about trying this other thing that DND doesn't fit as well and we use HERo for".

 

I agree 100%. I always wonder about these threads that say "well, we're switching to Hero, how do I do all these D&D spells/feats/class features/mechanics in Hero?" If you want D&D mechanics and abilities, why not just PLAY D&D? Play Hero to incorporate the things it can do that D&D can't.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

sometimes it's nice to have a bit of DnD in your hero. I remeber early in the lowfantsy game when we were first starting to develope powers, and one character taught himself "whirlwind attack" using DnD as an inspiration. another became a sniper (with PSLs) and a third gained an inspirational battlecry ability. Dnd can be a good springboard, but if you want to play DnD, play DnD it does it better

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

sometimes it's nice to have a bit of DnD in your hero.

 

Any source of inspiration is good. What I find frustrating is the obsession with making the ability precisely match the D&D mechanics. If you want the D&D mechanics, play D&D! If you want a D&D flavour, that's generally pretty easy to simulate with Hero.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

yeah, that's pretty much what i was trying to say

[Onyxclaw]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

I would agree with that.

 

I just wish I could find a system that worked well for my fantasy concepts =P

[CourtFool]

Re: Screw the rogue...again.

 

As to skills being more like HERO' date=' sure. If you want to say lots of skills makes HERO. I disagree since most HERO characters seem to have 30 CP or less in skills.[/quote']

 

Difference in experience I guess. I rarely use published characters.

 

Classes just frustrate me because they never have the class I want to play.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

i think the biggest problem is the fact you only get to lvl up once every 5-6 sessions, so it's harder to learn new languages and new skills

[CourtFool]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

i think the biggest problem is the fact you only get to lvl up once every 5-6 sessions' date=' so it's harder to learn new languages and new skills[/quote']

 

Was this directed to me? That was not the issue for me. The type of character I want to play rarely fits into a nice, tight definition of Fighter/Rogue/Wizard.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

not directed at you, but your thought springboarded mine

[Super Squirrel]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

If I wanted to get players off of d20 I'd start out like this.

 

All players are normals in a town. They have jobs and have some sort of background. Because of the d20 backing this means they are 0-level characters for the D&D class of their choice with a couple of PS and KS in the job of their choice. I'd also have them describe any sort of code of conduct or driving goals the character has. Once I had the list, I'd sit down and build the basic character on 50+50 points. The disadvantages would be mostly Pscyhological Limitations.

 

At the start, the players would have characters that look and feel like a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Priest, etc. Because I created the characters, I would build them all the same SPD. This means combat would be naturally watered down. I wouldn't enforce END restrictions and as the GM I'd keep track of BODY damage. I'd have the players keep track of their STUN. Every second "round" of combat I would remind them they get their REC back in STUN.

 

At the end of the game I would congratulate them for surviving their first game of Hero System. They would get five experience points no matter how difficult or simple the game was. I'd also throw in a roleplay bonus for people I felt did an exceptional job.

 

Then comes the hardest part of for the GM. I'd look for problems the players likely encountered. One almost certain to have happen is STUNNING. I'd suggest that the "Fighter" consider buying something like "+10 CON, Only for Resisting Stunning(-1), Requires an Ego Roll(-1/2)" which would cost him 4 of his 5 XP. If he says something like, "Well I was hoping to improve my combat with that experience" tell him he can buy buying a CSL with his prefered weapon.

 

The reason why you want to start small is it makes the players see improvements and character growth early. It would make for a very difficult job as a GM early on because you have to do a lot of work. Once the players are more accustomed to the rules, when they have an idea, ask them how they think it would be built. Then sit down with them together and build the power together. I also would recommend you be willing to lend out a copy of the rule book so the players who want to get rid of the training wheels sooner rather than later can do so.

 

Don't press the fact that players can do whatever they want to. Let them discover it on their own. If you have been playing for a while and the party still looks like typical classes right out of D&D you might want to drop a hint or two, but ultimately, let them play what they want and sooner or later you will get a player wanting to play something very atypical to the d20 environment.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

i think the biggest problem is the fact you only get to lvl up once every 5-6 sessions' date=' so it's harder to learn new languages and new skills[/quote']

 

Hence my house rule that skill points cost 300XP (increased by the level multiplier) so that if you needed to you could gain Chondathan or Derro if you needed it, with just a bit of in game explaination.

 

Sargen, the Wandering Warwizard of Cormyr and Ambassador of Cormyr to the Duchy of Reptar's Hold, spent like 10,000XP on extra skill points over the course of his career it seemed. Why? Because 1) I hadn't fully actualized my increase in skills for the core 3 classes 2) Because the character concept demanded he have a lot of skills coupled with his natural 20 INT score.

 

Remember breaking a rule in a game to make it more fun for you and your group is not a cardinal sin.

 

Hawksmoor

-Anyway Fantasy Hero players enjoy! I'll join you when my 563 point Lord of War character is accepted as a standard FH character.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

interesting idea, i'll have to try it out

[teh bunneh]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

-Anyway Fantasy Hero players enjoy! I'll join you when my 563 point Lord of War character is accepted as a standard FH character.

 

Is a 19th-level, 4-class character "standard"? Assuming that you've played this character over a long period of time in a campaign, how would he be different from a FH character with similar longevity? In one of my longer-running FH campaigns, the characters started at 50 base 50 disads and ended at around 500 points. I would argue that they were "standard" -- just "standard with X years of campaigning experience." Same as your half-orc.

 

Bill.

[teh bunneh]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

Is a 19th-level' date=' 4-class character "standard"? Assuming that you've played this character over a long period of time in a campaign, how would he be different from a FH character with similar longevity? In one of my longer-running FH campaigns, the characters started at 50 base 50 disads and ended at around 500 points. I would argue that they were "standard" -- just "standard with X years of campaigning experience." Same as your half-orc. [/quote']

 

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded smarmy -- definitely not my intent. As I said before: if you're having fun, game on brother.

 

Bill.

[Shike019]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

I and my current gaming group have actually just gone through this. Everyone in the group felt that DND was a little too limiting with classes and levels and such, but we also found the concepts interesting and enjoyed the roleplaying aspect (our DM gave roleplaying experiene on top of the combat experience). Granted the class/level system has it's restrictions, but almost everyone in the game (including NPC's) multiclassed, this is what everyone wanted to do, and multiclassing is easy. We are currently running a Hero game (set in roughly the realworld universe with some of the mythological creatures as reality) run by a different member of the group, and we are all enjoying that as well. Some of us (myself included) have spent quite a bit of money and time on DND (yes the books are expensive) and we want to play in that system again. One thing I really like about DND 3.5 is all rolls are trying to get the higher score, thus a Knowlege skill of 9 is a d20 +9 +/- circumstances to beat a set number. Or combat is I have a +3 to hit with my sword, d20 +3 must be greater than opponents armor class. No extraneous math such as 11+ocv -3d6 = opponents dvc. Also competing skill rolls are a cinch, who ever has the higher roll wins. But my likes about DND aside, I am thoroughly enjoy the hero system, which I think does some things much better.

 

So much for my opinion, I guess I am just an equal opportunity roleplayer.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

i agree that DnD's rules system is very easy to pick up, hero's takes some more work (what with stun and body), but is well worth it.

[ZenStorm]

Re: How to get them off d20

 

explain to them the few "sublte nuances" that are fixed by switching systems... like

 

 

1) the ability to jump off a mountain at high lvls and not die

 

2) Dire Elephants being master climbers

 

3) the "ferral template"

 

4) anthropomorphic squid men

 

You forgot a few. Let me help ya out, bro.

 

5) Thirty-foot wide hallways that are too narrow for three trolls to walk abreast.

 

6) Creativity Cookie-cutters ...er... I mean "Character Classes."

 

7) Wrought-Iron Thought-Shackles ...er... I mean "Alignment."

 

8) Five-foot wide doorways a small riding horse can't fit through.

 

9) "Read my lips... No - New - Artwork."

 

10) Cattle-herding Character Progression ...er... I mean "Levels."

 

11) "Polar-Ray" as a spell worthy of the core book.