Mental Defense

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Now this is an interesting point!

However, once again, you've missed some information (don't feel bad though a lot of people have missed this). Both these powers may have Mental Defense in them and yes, they automatically make Mental Defense Resistent when they are included. So still no inconsistency right there.

 

Oh, I knew about that, just didn't see it as relevant. Force Field is consistent in that way whether it's Mental Defense or any other Defense; but that still doesn't affect how it compares to any application of Damage Resistance.

 

I think we've reached the point of "agree to disagree," so I'll just shake your hand amicably and be on my way.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

...STR gives a whole package of benefits (and I'd really like to avoid getting into another STR debate here)...

I'm afraid you took one my statements out of the context it was meant for. Probably my fault on that.

 

I was addressing a cost comparison someone else brought up in comparing EGO vs other stats. Sorry about that.

 

IMO EGO is closer to DEX in the way that it functions: it provides ECV to allow a character to hit with Mental Powers' date=' or avoid being hit by them...[/quote']

Yes, I acknowledge that EGO serves the same purpose that STR/DEX/CON do. And yes, EGO does combine several of these function together. I only mentioned STR and CON since I was addressing the Defense portion of it, not the Combat Value portion of it.

 

Now Presence has been brought up' date=' and there's another interesting case: it's a Primary Characteristic with no Figured derived from it; it acts as a point-for-point Defense, as well as an Attack (which doesn't cost END). It also is the basis for all Interaction Skills.[/quote']

Ok, I know I'm dense, I freely admit that, but I don't see how this is relevant. I've already pointed out that each Stat has it's own functions differences. I don't see how that proves anything one way or another about the Figured Defenses.

 

For me it's just too difficult to draw direct parallels between things that function in such different ways. But I fear I'm coming across as busting your chops over this.

Hey, remember the Protean thread? It took a whole page worth of posts for someone to come up with an argument that was strong enough to convince me that it shouldn't be a movement power but a form of shapeshift. I just wasn't getting it and no one seemed to make a good argument to support it. (8^D)

 

Obviously dealing with the issue your way works for you' date=' and I for one see no great problem with doing it like that. Other folks seem to agree with you, so I think I'll just shut up and let you play the way you enjoy. [/quote']

I was just curious that if there was solid reason why it shouldn't be a standard figured stat. So far no one's been able to support why having it a standard figured stat would not make sense, rules wise, not personal preference wise.

 

Thanks for trying though. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Oh, I knew about that, just didn't see it as relevant. Force Field is consistent in that way whether it's Mental Defense or any other Defense; but that still doesn't affect how it compares to any application of Damage Resistance.

 

I think we've reached the point of "agree to disagree," so I'll just shake your hand amicably and be on my way.

I hold your opinion in high esteem, so if you think of anything else, feel free ot post it. Remember, I can be convinced, but the argument has to be well supported, and very logical. And sometimes a jackhammer to get through my thick skull helps too! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I was just curious that if there was solid reason why it shouldn't be a standard figured stat. So far no one's been able to support why having it a standard figured stat would not make sense, rules wise, not personal preference wise.

 

Thanks for trying though. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Oh well, that's a whole different pot of caviar.

 

Back at the top of the thread you mentioned that you were approaching this issue from a superheroic perspective; one thing you ought to consider is the effect that this change would have on heroic level campaigns. Supers often throw around massive Mental Powers capable of manhandling even strong-willed opponents, let alone the average normal on the street. For heroic campaigns, though, you often have to content yourself with much more subtle effects.

 

For example, with most Mental Powers you would need at least 6d6/ 30 Active Points to achieve even a +10 effect against a mere 10 EGO normal more often than not (assuming average 3.5 per die). Even then said normal would have an 11- chance to throw off the effect immediately. Compare that with the kind of damage that a punch for 6d6 or a 2d6 RKA pistol shot does to most normals. Just adding EGO/5 Mental Defense as a standard Figured Characteristic to that normal - a mere two points - could make all the difference as to whether that 30 AP MP rolls enough effect.

 

BTW thank you very much for the compliment.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Mental Defense

 

RE: Amount of dice needed to Mind Control a normal person. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that the average person has an 8 EGO, not a 10. 10 is the starting point for characters. I'll try to avoid the argument about GM's over-requiring the higher levels of EGO effect though...

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Back at the top of the thread you mentioned that you were approaching this issue from a superheroic perspective; one thing you ought to consider is the effect that this change would have on heroic level campaigns.

Which is why I mentioned it. I've never run Heroic or Sci-Fi with Hero, just Supreheroes, so I don't have any experience with why just 2 points of Mental Defense would be that big of deal.

 

Supers often throw around massive Mental Powers capable of manhandling even strong-willed opponents' date=' let alone the average normal on the street. For heroic campaigns, though, you often have to content yourself with much more subtle effects...[/quote']

So 2 points really has that much of impact?

I really had no idea. So one possible reason Mental Defense is optiona is to put in line with the Hit Location optional rules. They work good for some settings, but not others. Hmmm.... Ok, that makes sense.

 

I don't know if other people who've run Heroic games would agree with you, but I'll taking your word for it.

 

BTW thank you very much for the compliment.

Not at all, you've always been very logical and put forth very good arguements to support you point of view. You've earned that respect.

 

Those who don't lose credibility and I stop taking them seriously when they post. They just become background noise that I glance at once in while.

 

Thanks again.

 

Addendum: Oh yes, just had to add, you've always been polite in posts, even with opposing views, and that really adds to someones credibility even when the other person doesn't return it in kind. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

RE: Amount of dice needed to Mind Control a normal person. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that the average person has an 8 EGO' date=' not a 10. 10 is the starting point for characters. I'll try to avoid the argument about GM's over-requiring the higher levels of EGO effect though...[/quote']

Point well taken, but I was kind of focusing on PC stats as opposed to NPCs, or do you run PCs with standard 8 average?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

RE: Amount of dice needed to Mind Control a normal person. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that the average person has an 8 EGO' date=' not a 10. 10 is the starting point for characters. I'll try to avoid the argument about GM's over-requiring the higher levels of EGO effect though...[/quote']

 

Thanks, that's good to remember. Just to be clear, though, I was using "normal" as the rulebook does, people distinct from and largely inferior to heroic PCs. The Noteworthy, Skilled and Competent Normals all have EGOs of 10 or better. Sorry for the confusion.

 

I just wanted to highlight the relative effectiveness of substantial (for heroic campaigns) Active Points of Mental Power vs. even an EGO of 10, which costs a character nothing.

 

schir1964, IME two points can indeed make a significant difference in some campaigns. A two-point CSL really helps when the CV spread among characters is much narrower. Getting up to those advantageous Characteristic breakpoints is more of an accomplishment when points are scarcer, especially if you want to exceed Normal Characteristic Maxima. Perks are often more valuable for characters who don't have flashy powers, and have to approach problems more subtly, particularly in a genre that emphasises such situations.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I think a lot of low-powered and many other modern and sci-fi settings have no mental stuff as a general default, with rare villains/NPCs with (often amazing) mental powers. In these settings, keeping the whole mental stuff away from core character design, to me, makes sense. I guess you could easily argue that it should be optional to shut it off as figured. But I can live with it either way, and I'm not sure either way applies enough to a critical mass of campaigns, making this a coin toss. I do MD as a standard figured char, myself.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

But I can live with it either way' date=' and I'm not sure either way applies enough to a critical mass of campaigns, making this a coin toss. I do MD as a standard figured char, myself.[/quote']

 

Assuming a default Mental Defense value of Ego/5 actually makes a huge difference in low AP point campaigns, significantly reducing the value of mental powers.

 

Even in higher AP games, there is a noticeable loss of effectiveness.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Point well taken, but I was kind of focusing on PC stats as opposed to NPCs, or do you run PCs with standard 8 average?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

 

Not all of use have moved to the new 5th editon statement. We like average people to have the stats necessary to use average weapons for example.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Not all of use have moved to the new 5th editon statement. We like average people to have the stats necessary to use average weapons for example.

 

I don't recall for sure, but I thought 4e also had straight 8 standard normals. I seem to recall the initial idea being a drop to 8's rather than 10's freed up 29 points to buy skills, etc. so that a "normal" with "average stats" wasn't completely skill-less. That may have come up sometime in 3e, but I'm pretty sure wasn't in the core rules at that time.

 

As to "normals using average weapons", I'd suggest that the average 20th century normal would have a tough time picking up and effectively swinging a broadsword. It does speak to the value of varying the average human stats by genre, though, as fantasy characters would generally get a lot more regular exercise (speaking to higher STR on average), especially in the typical fantasy game which avoids issues like childhood malnutrition stunting growth.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I don't recall for sure' date=' but I thought 4e also had straight 8 standard normals. I seem to recall the initial idea being a drop to 8's rather than 10's freed up 29 points to buy skills, etc. so that a "normal" with "average stats" wasn't completely skill-less. That may have come up sometime in 3e, but I'm pretty sure wasn't in the core rules at that time..[/quote']

 

I don't recall if the change change came in 4th or 5th?

 

Most 'normals' would have at least one disadvantage to buy skills with. A simple 'Watched' for a low number of points from their employer if nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

As to "normals using average weapons", I'd suggest that the average 20th century normal would have a tough time picking up and effectively swinging a broadsword.

 

And so it would seem, shotguns and many pistols commonly in use. And where in the rules does it state that the typical man has 10 in non-modern settings?

 

HERO adjusted the 'typical' man, but failed to consider adjusting their weapons.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Defense

 

And so it would seem, shotguns and many pistols commonly in use. And where in the rules does it state that the typical man has 10 in non-modern settings?

 

HERO adjusted the 'typical' man, but failed to consider adjusting their weapons.

 

I treat sedentary adult males as having a STR of 6-9, moderately active males (those more likely to be using weapons) as having a STR of 10-13. Most adult American men can't do a single pull-up, but you meet plenty who can pop off 12 or more. The mean is not the median.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I don't recall if the change change came in 4th or 5th?

 

I'm pretty sure 4th but it has minimal impact on the discussion.

 

Most 'normals' would have at least one disadvantage to buy skills with. A simple 'Watched' for a low number of points from their employer if nothing else.

 

Watched implies a greater level of supervision than most jobs in reality actually have. Being actively monitored even 25% of the time is pretty significant. While I would expect most normals would have a disadvantage or two, my recollection is that this was a stated reason for the change, but that may be pre-4e when the idea was toyed with, but not canon.

 

And so it would seem' date=' shotguns and many pistols commonly in use.[/quote']

 

I don't disagree with this. Most people who fire a gun for the first time are surprised at the kick it generates. Much training with firearms involves a two-handed brace which would reduce the STR minimum, and the "reality" two-handed grip and solid stance is very different from the "heroic" firing one-handed while on the run.

 

We had a court case some years ago where a storeowner killed a would-be young robber with a shotgun blast to the back. Much of the expert testimony centered arround whether the storeowner intended to kill the robber, or whether, as he claimed, he was aiming for the legs, but the unexpected (to him) kick of the shotgun pulled the barrel higher. He wasn't elderly or apparently frail, but looked like Joe Average - I doubt he was unusually low in the STR department.

 

And where in the rules does it state that the typical man has 10 in non-modern settings?

 

It doesn't. My suggestion is that, perhaps, it should. An 8 average (or Oddhat's 6-9) makes a lot more sense for sedentary life, which is a lot less likely in lower technology settings.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I treat sedentary adult males as having a STR of 6-9' date=' moderately active males (those more likely to be using weapons) as having a STR of 10-13. Most adult American men can't do a single pull-up, but you meet plenty who can pop off 12 or more. The mean is not the median.[/quote']

 

Your point that the average male cannot do a single pull-up is quite illustrative. STR 10 implies the ability to lift 100 kg at expenditure of 2 END and no push. 100 kg is assumed human body weight. If the average STR were 10, the average man should be able to do 10 pullups without being exhausted. An 8 STR person, however, would need an Ego roll to push his STR by the 2 points needed. Seems to support an average STR under 10 to me.

 

I would also note that police officers and persons joining the military, for example, must pass some fairly rigorous physical requirements, and are then put through some fairly tough "basic training". This combination would implyu members of such organizations, which are the ones where weapon use is most common, are above average physical specimens, manifesting in part in a couple of extra STR. With Joe Average an 8, giving an average member of such an organization a 10 or 11 seems adequate. A 13 or 15 is just stat inflation.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I do 10 as "normal" which is to say that the STR weight lift really doesn't fit.

 

I should rescale STR weight lifts - which I used to do - but I really haven't felt like deviating again as it's just easier for everyone to leave it as is, and while I know it's a little bit broken, it's not enough to really matter.

 

Though I think a better way perhaps is to simply treat the top end of the weight lift as something you need a char roll to lift with 11 or less, and each step in STR down the STR chart raises that by 1. Something like that, though I'd have to really look at the chart to see how that would work. I like that idea like that simply because, to me, I think people aren't that consistent at the top end of their lift range, some days they have no problem, some days they can't so well, just depending on all sorts of factors.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Your point that the average male cannot do a single pull-up is quite illustrative. STR 10 implies the ability to lift 100 kg at expenditure of 2 END and no push. 100 kg is assumed human body weight. If the average STR were 10, the average man should be able to do 10 pullups without being exhausted. An 8 STR person, however, would need an Ego roll to push his STR by the 2 points needed. Seems to support an average STR under 10 to me.

 

I would also note that police officers and persons joining the military, for example, must pass some fairly rigorous physical requirements, and are then put through some fairly tough "basic training". This combination would implyu members of such organizations, which are the ones where weapon use is most common, are above average physical specimens, manifesting in part in a couple of extra STR. With Joe Average an 8, giving an average member of such an organization a 10 or 11 seems adequate. A 13 or 15 is just stat inflation.

Personally, Hugh, I see the problem as this:

 

In modern superheroic, and even much of heroic fiction although it's by far worse in this setting, the sedentary person that Odd Hat refers to makes sense at an 8 STR, but the "average Joe" who is healthy can often do pretty amazing things when pulled into the action. That, plus in general an active person seems quite capable, and basically has to be in a world of such drama and action. I mean, imagine living in Marvel NYC and just getting by with the falling debris and suddenly being grabbed and pulled up 20 flights by a flying character, barely held by your arms? And to be an agent or specialist in this world requires amazing vigor.

 

So I see stat "inflation" as a reasonable response. My excuse in general is that very many people have been affected by very low levels of mutation.

 

(Of course, Marvel's NYC is ridiculously fantastic, and I can't imagine why a single human being would live in it, the awe of watching supers is certainly very well overcome for any sane person by the ongoing chance of something terrible happening)

 

PS - to be very clear, I put inflation in quotes because I don't think it is, I think it's merely the conditons of many super-worlds - now to be fair here, I know lots of you run games that have a different bar and tend more towards realism, so of course this logic doesn't apply there. I tend towards more realism in interaction and the way supers are as people but less in the action realm, where I like comic book stuff

 

PPS - and Detroit was a bit like Marvel's NYC in the past in my world, and as a result it's been even more depopulated than it currently is in real life; while NYC just underwent a mass mutation accident and therefore may end up like Marvel's but LOTS of "regular" people have a little ability or bizareness themselves

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Watched implies a greater level of supervision than most jobs in reality actually have. Being actively monitored even 25% of the time is pretty significant. .

 

There's more to it than just being monitored, you have to spread more than 1/3 of your weekdays either at work or coming and going to work. You have to be prompt, and you have limited time off without risking being fired- conditions made worse if you can't provide advanced notice.

 

And that's not counting things like overtime and required on-call.

 

I call that a significant disadvantage- enough to justify all the limits a 'normal' would need. Although the form can be debate- be it a watched, a social limit, or something else.

 

I don't disagree with this. Most people who fire a gun for the first time are surprised at the kick it generates.

 

I'm legally physical disabled with reduced hand/arm strength. My wife is 5'2" and weaker than I.

 

We've both fired big bore weapons and shotguns, she in fact likes .45 better than lesser weapons.

 

It doesn't take much STR to use them at all. It just takes the mindset to ignore the flash and noise.

 

Yet HERO would have us believe that its because of a STR 8 that the average person can't manage it.

 

Further I will point out that the STR values haven't changed from previous editions to any significant extent, while the typical man values have. Any designer intent on adjusting one who have adjusted the other.

 

 

It doesn't. My suggestion is that, perhaps, it should. An 8 average (or Oddhat's 6-9) makes a lot more sense for sedentary life, which is a lot less likely in lower technology settings.

 

The old rules stated that 8 was an average for the man in the street including the old, disabled, ill, etc which pulled down the numbers. They used to state that the typical stats for a heathly man were 10 across the board. The NPC examples showed this.

 

However in 5th edition they've taken to the idea that 8 is the average for a heathly man for who knows what reason and adjusted the example characters to match.

 

Frankly, I think the old designers knew more than the new ones.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I'm legally physical disabled with reduced hand/arm strength. My wife is 5'2" and weaker than I.

 

We've both fired big bore weapons and shotguns, she in fact likes .45 better than lesser weapons.

 

It doesn't take much STR to use them at all. It just takes the mindset to ignore the flash and noise.

 

Yet HERO would have us believe that its because of a STR 8 that the average person can't manage it.

 

No, Hero would have us believe that a STR 8 average person cannot fire a gun one-handed without taking an OCV penalty. There's a pretty substantial difference there. Doesn't a Brace or Set also reduce the STR minimum for a ranged weapon (and isn't standard firearms training to use two hands, and brace/set)?

 

The old rules stated that 8 was an average for the man in the street including the old, disabled, ill, etc which pulled down the numbers. They used to state that the typical stats for a heathly man were 10 across the board. The NPC examples showed this.

 

However in 5th edition they've taken to the idea that 8 is the average for a heathly man for who knows what reason and adjusted the example characters to match.

 

I'm pretty sure 4th had examples of "Joe Normal" (not infirm, orld or ill) with 8's across the board. 5th just retained the standard.

 

Frankly' date=' I think the old designers knew more than the new ones.[/quote']

 

That's not a broad, sweeping statement, is it?

 

So you believe the typical healthy man can do 10 pullups a minute, more or less indefinitely? That's a 10 STR person lifting 100 kg once per phase at a cost of 2 END per phase (heroic rules; 4 END per turn) who has a 4 REC. Even adding in long term END, he can keep that up for quite a while. Give him an 8 STR, and now he has to work to do that pullup.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

So you believe the typical healthy man can do 10 pullups a minute, more or less indefinitely?

 

The END rules are whacked for anyone. No one can do their max lift indefinitely. One can't point to other faults in the rules to justify yet another fault. Although such attempts pass for logic these days.

 

Moreover, your example is even more screwed up. The 100kg left for a 10 STR is not a pull up. That's a max lift from ground- assuming whole body strength. The actual two arms, full lift is significantly less in HER0.

 

 

 

As for a typical healthy man, yes. Yes he should be able to manage that rate for a short period of time. A healthy man is one who does light exercise and is not significantly overweight. Unless something else is wrong with them, they should be able to manage a pull up in six seconds.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

As for a typical healthy man' date=' yes. Yes he should be able to manage that rate for a short period of time. A healthy man is one who does light exercise and is not significantly overweight. Unless something else is wrong with them, they should be able to manage such a minor feat.[/quote']

 

Yet the average person cannot, in fact, do 10 pullups in one minute. The average person cannot even do one pullup. This seems to imply the "healthy man" you hypothesize is not as common as you seem to think.

 

Now, the average police officer, or average military member, or average street tough, would be a different story (and oh, look - aren't those are the people who most commonly are using firearms)

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Yet the average person cannot' date=' in fact, do 10 pullups in one minute. The average person cannot even do one pullup. This seems to imply the "healthy man" you hypothesize is). [/quote']

 

I never claimed he was average. I only claimed a typical healthy man.

 

You're an idiot and you're going into the ignore list. I don't recall any worthwhile exchange with you and I see no reason to continue the trend.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Defense

 

The END rules are whacked for anyone. No one can do their max lift indefinitely. One can't point to other faults in the rules to justify yet another fault. Although such attempts pass for logic these days.

 

 

As for a typical healthy man, yes. Yes he should be able to manage that rate for a short period of time. A healthy man is one who does light exercise and is not significantly overweight. Unless something else is wrong with them, they should be able to manage such a minor feat.

 

The average adult American male can not do ten pull ups in a minute. He can't even do one. If you want to exclude sedentary and overweight men from your sample group, you've just gotten rid of most of the adult male population. At that point, why not just say that any NPC in your game who has a gun is assumed to have enough STR to use it?

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Here's a page on UK fire-fighter's fitness standards. I picked it because it actually tells you something about the sample population used:

http://www.lawfit.gmu.edu/firefit/fitness_profiles.html

 

All weights ae in KG. As you can see from the above, 10-13 pull ups are considered "good" for a fire-fighter, someone in a demanding profesion where physical fitness is vital. Average is 7-9. Personally, I would be surprised if most adult American men could manage even to reach the "poor" level on this chart.