Mental Defense

[schir1964]

I've noticed an odd inconsitency with rules concerning Mental Defense. Perhaps someone could shed some light on it for me.

 

I deal with the Superhero Genre for my games, just to give a heads up for everyone on where my perspective is coming from.

 

Characters can buy Ranged Killing Attack, and they automatically have Physical Defense.

 

Characters can buy Energy Blast, and they automatically have Energy Defense.

 

Characters can buy Ego Attack, but they don't automatically have Mental Defense.

 

Why?

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to have Mental Defense as a standard Figured Stat?

 

The rules allow this as an Optional Rule, why not make it the default?

 

The fact that any character can buy a Mental Power, yet doesn't automatically have the appropriate defense by default appears inconsistent to me.

 

Just Curious

 

- Christopher Mullins

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I use Mental Defense as a Figured Characteristic in pretty much all my games. In Heroic level games, it has the same Characteristic Maximum as PD and ED. 8pts. Anything more than this is considered a "Power"

[austenandrews]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Most mental powers are structured so that high EGO serves as a defense against effects as well as against getting hit. From that perspective, everyone does get a modicum of defense (and at +1 DEF/1 EGO as opposed to +1 DEF/5 EGO). Plus Mental Defense works against a spectrum of mental attacks, unlike PD & ED which have a pretty limited (though obviously common) set of effects.

 

On the other hand I've seen plenty of games where MD is house-ruled as a standard characteristic.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Two main factors apply.

 

1. Ego provides the base defense against most mental powers.

 

2. Ego Blast costs twice as much as EB, this is more expensive than the No Range Mod and the swap to ECV can justify. Thus the lack of a base defense makes up the pricing difference.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Most mental powers are structured so that high EGO serves as a defense against effects as well as against getting hit. From that perspective, everyone does get a modicum of defense (and at +1 DEF/1 EGO as opposed to +1 DEF/5 EGO). Plus Mental Defense works against a spectrum of mental attacks, unlike PD & ED which have a pretty limited (though obviously common) set of effects.

 

On the other hand I've seen plenty of games where MD is house-ruled as a standard characteristic.

Actually, based on what you are describing, it's still inconsistent:

 

If all STR/CON did was increase your PD/ED, it would be equivalent, but they gives a whole lot more than that.

STR (Only to Increase PD)

CON (Only to Increase ED)

 

We now have

+1 STR/+1 DEF works against all Standard Attacks vs PD

+1 CON/+1 DEF works against all Standard Attacks vs ED

+1 EGO/+1 DEF works against all Mental Powers vs MD

 

PD = STR/5

ED = CON/5

MD = EGO/5

 

DCV = DEX/3

ECV = EGO/3

 

They are all identical, but a character gets PD/ED automatically, but not MD.

 

Seems inconsistent to me. Am I overlooking something here?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TheEmerged]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I've allowed it as a figured characteristic for over a decade, and recommend this optional rule heartily. One addition I'd make has to do with the NCM listings. I made it the reverse of the PD/ED; it's lower for young characters and higher for older characters.

 

Why wasn't it made default? One possible reason is that when 5th Edition was being prepared, there was a mandate "from on high" that *no* changes were to be made "that would require every character to remake their sheets" (wording from Steve Long). That would include this simple, obvious change.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Two main factors apply.

 

1. Ego provides the base defense against most mental powers.

 

2. Ego Blast costs twice as much as EB, this is more expensive than the No Range Mod and the swap to ECV can justify. Thus the lack of a base defense makes up the pricing difference.

Not sure why number one is significant, but ok, I'll accept that.

 

Number 2: Ok, pick any other Standard Attack besides Energy Blast. They cost much more than EGO Attack and most of the Mental Powers. So this really doesn't support the idea of balance, which is what you implied by suggesting a cost difference.

 

But if you see it that way. Ok. Doesn't make sense to me however, and that's ok too.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Why wasn't it made default? One possible reason is that when 5th Edition was being prepared' date=' there was a mandate "from on high" that *no* changes were to be made "that would require every character to remake their sheets" (wording from Steve Long). That would include this simple, obvious change.[/quote']

Forgotten about that!

 

But they still had to rewrite everything anyway. So the objective kind of fell flat on it's face anyway. (8^D)

 

That makes sense as to why though.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Not sure why number one is significant' date=' but ok, I'll accept that.[/quote']

 

 

Roll 4d6 of Mind Control with a result of 16. It does nothing to an Ego of 18.

 

Which is the same result if one rules 4d6 EB with a result of 16 against a PD of 18.

 

All the effect roll powers (Mind Control, Mental Illusion, etc) are subject to that base stat defense.

 

To this base defense, Mental Defense adds one to one- much the same as addition PD or ED adds to their base values.

 

 

 

 

Number 2: Ok, pick any other Standard Attack besides Energy Blast. They cost much more than EGO Attack and most of the Mental Powers. So this really doesn't support the idea of balance, which is what you implied by suggesting a cost difference.

 

I have no idea what 'standard' attacks you're referencing that costs more than EB (assuming no advantages). 1 DC = 5 points is the base a core assumption of the system.

[Superskrull]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Seems inconsistent to me. Am I overlooking something here?

 

Yes. PD and Ed are intrinsic to any character. They represent your resistance against the world itself. The world doesn't normally produce any mental-based damage but without the PD you get from an 8-10 Str, you take Body from ANY impact that generates damage such as falls and punches by human beings. Remember, without this 2 PD two normals will automatically do Stun & Body to each other with their 1 1/2 - 2d6 damage swings. This means a 5 Str guy can do a Body per punch to people. Makes people too easily damaged.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

The world doesn't normally produce any mental-based damage...

Ok, this part actually makes some sense. So another way to do this consistently would to place all the Mental Based Powers/Defenses alongside Mental Defense as Optional. I could see that, since they aren't the norm.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mental Defense

 

. The world doesn't normally produce any mental-based damage

 

What do you call Migraines and Mental Exhaustion?

[Superskrull]

Re: Mental Defense

 

What do you call Migraines and Mental Exhaustion?

In short? Painful. I wouldn't use Mental Defense vs them, though. Those are best resisted with Resistance, IMO.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Ok, this part actually makes some sense. So another way to do this consistently would to place all the Mental Based Powers/Defenses alongside Mental Defense as Optional. I could see that, since they aren't the norm.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

All powers are "optional" depending on setting.

 

I have no trouble with the idea that everyone has a default Mental defense of Ego/5; I've used that in a few campaigns. Still, you don't get free resistant PD or ED; killing attacks cost more because they bypass normal defenses. The same could be said for Mental powers. Considering the cost of Mental powers (and the breakout rules, which often make them much less effective than just hitting someone), it doesn't worry me that you need some minimal training (i.e. you need to spend at least one character point) for Mental Defense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I have no trouble with the idea that everyone has a default Mental defense of Ego/5; I've used that in a few campaigns. Still' date=' you don't get free resistant PD or ED; killing attacks cost more because they bypass normal defenses. The same could be said for Mental powers. Considering the cost of Mental powers (and the breakout rules, which often make them much less effective than just hitting someone), it doesn't worry me that you need some mnimal training (i.e. you need to spend at least one character point) for Mental Defense.[/quote']

 

I agree that either approach is workable, and I haven't changed my game to reflect MD as a pure figured characteristic either. However, I think this gets confused because MD effectively provides a pseudo-figured component. You don't get a base amount of resistant PD or ED when you buy your first point of resistant defenses (although you do get the ability to apply all your PD and ED against Stun from a killing attack).

 

This results in the value of the first CP spent on mental defense being greater tha each subsequent CP, and differing by character (ie a 23 Ego character benefits more than an 8 Ego character). I think there's a good case to be made for either giving all characters their base (Ego/5) mental defense for free (bringing MD in line with PD and ED), or removing this base mental defense entirely (bringing MD in line with Flash and Power Defenses).

 

Either approach would be cleaner, to me. I'm not hung up on it enough to consider it a major flaw, but it would remove a minor inconsistentcy to change the system either way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I've noticed an odd inconsitency with rules concerning Mental Defense. Perhaps someone could shed some light on it for me.

 

I deal with the Superhero Genre for my games, just to give a heads up for everyone on where my perspective is coming from.

 

Characters can buy Ranged Killing Attack, and they automatically have Physical Defense.

 

*SNIP*

 

Big gap in the logic of your argument there. Characters don't have appropriate Defenses against Killing Attacks as a default; they have to buy some form of Resistant Defense.

 

It's also worth noting that for every Mental Power except Ego Attack, characters do have an innate defense: an automatic Breakout Roll on their first Phase when an MP would affect them, based on EGO which all characters have (except Automatons, but they ignore Mental Powers anyway).

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

All powers are "optional" depending on setting.

 

I have no trouble with the idea that everyone has a default Mental defense of Ego/5; I've used that in a few campaigns. Still, you don't get free resistant PD or ED; killing attacks cost more because they bypass normal defenses. The same could be said for Mental powers. Considering the cost of Mental powers (and the breakout rules, which often make them much less effective than just hitting someone), it doesn't worry me that you need some minimal training (i.e. you need to spend at least one character point) for Mental Defense.

Absolutely, all powers are optional based on setting. I just want things handled consistently. (8^D)

 

I'm not suggesting that the character get Resistant Mental Defense automatically.

 

I just want it treated consistently alongside PD and ED.

 

I already got my answer as why it was made the default. Arbitrary decision by Steve Long. And he has every right to do so.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Big gap in the logic of your argument there. Characters don't have appropriate Defenses against Killing Attacks as a default; they have to buy some form of Resistant Defense.

 

It's also worth noting that for every Mental Power except Ego Attack, characters do have an innate defense: an automatic Breakout Roll on their first Phase when an MP would affect them, based on EGO which all characters have (except Automatons, but they ignore Mental Powers anyway).

Sorry, Lord Liaden, one of the very, very, rare times I would have to disagree with you.

 

Seem my post above.

 

You seem to be forgetting that there is such a thing as Killing Mental Attacks and Resistent Mental Defense.

 

Your logic is missing a piece of information that makes it inconsistent.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

This results in the value of the first CP spent on mental defense being greater tha each subsequent CP' date=' and differing by character (ie a 23 Ego character benefits more than an 8 Ego character). I think there's a good case to be made for either giving all characters their base (Ego/5) mental defense for free (bringing MD in line with PD and ED), or removing this base mental defense entirely (bringing MD in line with Flash and Power Defenses).[/quote']

I had overlooked that possibility. I would agree to that solution also, since it would be consistent.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

It's also worth noting that for every Mental Power except Ego Attack' date=' characters do have an innate defense: an automatic Breakout Roll on their first Phase when an MP would affect them, based on EGO which all characters have (except Automatons, but they ignore Mental Powers anyway).[/quote']

I did want to address this separately, because you bring up some interesting points.

 

STR grants PD, but also gives an additional bonus to breaking out of Grabs and Entangles. That's a function of the stat that PD is based on. It has nothing to do with PD directly.

 

CON grants ED, but also gives an additional bonus to resisting interrogation and common diseases. That's a function of the stat that ED is based on. It has nothing to do with ED directly.

 

EGO grants MD, but also gives a Breakout Roll to some Mental Powers. That's a function of the stat that MD is based on. It has nothing to do with MD directly.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I already got my answer as why it was made the default. Arbitrary decision by Steve Long. And he has every right to do so.

 

In fairness, Steve's decision was not to vary the arbitrary decision made when 1e was prepared.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Sorry, Lord Liaden, one of the very, very, rare times I would have to disagree with you.

 

Seem my post above.

 

You seem to be forgetting that there is such a thing as Killing Mental Attacks and Resistent Mental Defense.

 

Your logic is missing a piece of information that makes it inconsistent.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Hmm... I think I see where you're going with that point. You're arguing that because you can have a BOECV Killing Attack, for which you would have to add Resistant to any Mental Defense to allow it counter that attack, a character should have some baseline Mental Defense as a default since he already has Physical and Energy Defense, to which he would have to add Damage Resistance to allow them to block regular Killing Attacks. Have I got that right?

 

Assuming I do, things start to get a lot more complicated. Characters don't have to make their PD or ED Resistant to block Killing Attacks: Force Field, Armor and Force Wall are completely separate Powers which do the job. That's a major "inconsistency" right there. A BOECV Killing Attack isn't a standard Mental Power, but Advantaged to allow it to work rather like one, but not completely. I'm not sure whether Killing Attacks bought with AVLD or NND would also bypass Defenses that aren't Resistant, but if so then by your reasoning we should have all the other exotic Defenses as a default to counter that possibility: Power Defense and the full range of Flash Defenses. (I'm going to ask Steve Long about that when he returns from Origins.)

 

I also have to reiterate my earlier point that Mental Powers, except for EGO Attack, don't affect a character like other damaging Powers do, and Energy Blast, RKA and their ilk don't employ the Breakout Roll mechanic. We're kinda getting into "apples and oranges" territory here.

 

I dunno; I feel like your definition of consistency is too rigorous. Consistency may be a little overrated anyway. BTW I don't necessarily disagree that Steve's decision may be somewhat arbritrary - I just don't think it's that simple an issue.

[Fox1]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I dunno; I feel like your definition of consistency is too rigorous. Consistency may be a little overrated anyway. BTW I don't necessarily disagree that Steve's decision may be somewhat arbritrary - I just don't think it's that simple an issue.

 

It's not. There is real logic to that decision, someone's refusal to see it doesn't change it.

 

As much as I dislike Steve Long's view of the game, it's at least (when modified by DoJ requirements) is better than many others here.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Defense

 

I did want to address this separately, because you bring up some interesting points.

 

STR grants PD, but also gives an additional bonus to breaking out of Grabs and Entangles. That's a function of the stat that PD is based on. It has nothing to do with PD directly.

 

CON grants ED, but also gives an additional bonus to resisting interrogation and common diseases. That's a function of the stat that ED is based on. It has nothing to do with ED directly.

 

EGO grants MD, but also gives a Breakout Roll to some Mental Powers. That's a function of the stat that MD is based on. It has nothing to do with MD directly.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You're welcome.

 

Again, there seems to be a bit of stretching here. STR gives a whole package of benefits (and I'd really like to avoid getting into another STR debate here). CON can give bonuses to resisting Interrogation as an option that the GM may allow; likewise with diseases, or if the Disease is built as a Power to be resisted that way. CON's primary benefit other than for Figured Characteristics is to resist being Stunned.

 

IMO EGO is closer to DEX in the way that it functions: it provides ECV to allow a character to hit with Mental Powers, or avoid being hit by them. In mental combat it determines who goes first. It does allow a character to resist Interrogation and other tests of will, and also Presence Attacks. There's a whole lot of stuff that EGO affects.

 

Now Presence has been brought up, and there's another interesting case: it's a Primary Characteristic with no Figured derived from it; it acts as a point-for-point Defense, as well as an Attack (which doesn't cost END). It also is the basis for all Interaction Skills.

 

For me it's just too difficult to draw direct parallels between things that function in such different ways. But I fear I'm coming across as busting your chops over this. Obviously dealing with the issue your way works for you, and I for one see no great problem with doing it like that. Other folks seem to agree with you, so I think I'll just shut up and let you play the way you enjoy.

[schir1964]

Re: Mental Defense

 

Hmm... I think I see where you're going with that point. You're arguing that because you can have a BOECV Killing Attack' date=' for which you would have to add Resistant to any Mental Defense to allow it counter that attack, a character should have some baseline Mental Defense as a default since he already has Physical and Energy Defense, to which he would have to add Damage Resistance to allow them to block regular Killing Attacks. Have I got that right?[/quote']

Close enough for a hand grenade. (8^D)

 

Characters don't have to make their PD or ED Resistant to block Killing Attacks: Force Field' date=' Armor and Force Wall are completely separate Powers which do the job.[/quote']

Now this is an interesting point!

However, once again, you've missed some information (don't feel bad though a lot of people have missed this). Both these powers may have Mental Defense in them and yes, they automatically make Mental Defense Resistent when they are included. So still no inconsistency right there.

 

I'm not sure whether Killing Attacks bought with AVLD or NND would also bypass Defenses that aren't Resistant' date=' but if so then by your reasoning we should have all the other exotic Defenses as a default to counter that possibility: Power Defense and the full range of Flash Defenses. (I'm going to ask Steve Long about that when he returns from Origins.)[/quote']

Actually, based on the rules, AVLD and NND, are applicable, although, I'm trying compare apples to apples, and once you start addressing modifiers, that goes out the window. So far, I've been able to demonstrate how having Mental Defense as a standard figured stat is consistent mechanic for mechanic.

 

Oh and don't even get me started on Adjustment Powers and Power Defense, might as well throw all that away for comparison for what I am talking about.

 

Please see my response to Hugh post above when considering exotic defenses.

 

I also have to reiterate my earlier point that Mental Powers' date=' except for EGO Attack, don't affect a character like other damaging Powers do, and Energy Blast, RKA and their ilk don't employ the Breakout Roll mechanic. We're kinda getting into "apples and oranges" territory here.[/quote']

I've already specified my opnion on that. Obviously, you don't agree. If you have some further information you think I'm overlooking, I'm open to it.

 

However, I'll add this for you think about, every power has it's own unique mechanics that separate it from the others. Surely, you don't try to compare all these tiny differences when trying evaluate thier consistency do you?

 

Examples:

HKA - Adds STR, vs Resistant Defenses

RKA - Ranged, vs Resistant Defenses

EB - May bounce, vs Normal ED or Normal PD, Stun Only

Entangle - May block senses, No Defense Applicable, must break out of effect

Telekinesis - May grab (No Defense Applicable, must break out of effect), vs Normal PD

Ego Blast - LOS, vs MD

Mind Control - LOS, vs MD, must break out of effect

 

I dunno; I feel like your definition of consistency is too rigorous. Consistency may be a little overrated anyway.

Your use of determining consistency seems way to involved including too many non-related variables. But so what.

 

You know me. You know if you give me something really solid, I'll accept it. You just haven't done that yet. I respect your opinion a great deal.

 

BTW I don't necessarily disagree that Steve's decision may be somewhat arbritrary - I just don't think it's that simple an issue.

Well, I can only go on what Steve Long posted, way back when, when discussions about the 5th Edition being created were discussed. However, it's quite possible that the motivations behind that post were complicated. So you may be right.

 

- Christopher Mullins