What is Casual STR meant to be?

[Warp9]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

You can of course rationalize anything as you wish in your own campaign. But the idea that 9d6 of damage is only half as effective (or powerful) as 10d6 is certainly neither supported within the game mechanics or in actual game play. Certainly something with 10 BODY isn't twice as hard to destroy as something with 9 BODY, which was the other half of your argument.

 

Do you seriously think two characters dishing out 9d6 each attack are not going to beat an otherwise identical character who does 10d6 each attack? Because "half the damage" has a meaning within the game. And a 9d6 attack is clearly not doing only 50% of the damage of a 10d6 attack.

Depending on the situation a 10d6 EB could be quite a bit more effective.

 

If you start blasting a wall with 10 DEF, (given that the BODY for an EB tends to follow the amount of dice pretty closely) IMO you'd find that the 10d6 EB would be quite a bit more likely to do damage.

 

If I get a bit of extra time, I'll figure the exact number of hits it would take from the 10d6 vs the 9d6.

 

There are definitely some good examples like "5d6 vs 20d6" where a single 20d6 EB (against the right target) could do what one million 5d6 EB blasts could not do.

 

 

All that being said, I do agree that damage is added up in a linear fashion. And this creates unbalancing situations in the game.

 

In a linear game, you should simply not be able to buy a 1d6 EB NND with 1024 X Autofire, no-range, and AOE:Radius, without paying some vast number of points (you shouldn't be able to keep doubling the shots for a +1/2 advantage. Maybe it should be an extra shot for each +1/2 instead)

 

On the other hand, in an exponential game, getting hit with 1024 tiny EBs would not be that big of a deal.

 

It is when you combine the 2 things that you get into trouble

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

i always have thought of casual strenght as the ability for sufficently strong people to carry a backpack without tireing, or to kick down a door taking very little of their time, or even shrug off a weaker person's grab on them.

[Fox1]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

You can of course rationalize anything as you wish in your own campaign. But the idea that 9d6 of damage is only half as effective (or powerful) as 10d6 is certainly neither supported within the game mechanics or in actual game play.

 

Double the energy of any given attack, and you'll find a vast number of conditions in the real world where the outcome doesn't support it being 2x as effective either.

 

The real world is very counter-intuitive sometimes.

 

I generally think Warp 9 is warped in his game opinions. However I'm afraid that I have to agree with him that HERO's core design is very much linked the x2 energy per 5 points concept.

 

Pity that.

[Warp9]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

I generally think Warp 9 is warped in his game opinions.

Thank You!

 

I wouldn't be Warp9 with out the "Warped" Part.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Casual STR = Negligible Effort?

 

I can appreciate that such a being doesn't seem all that likely' date=' but I would not go so far as the say: "[i']physically impossible[/i]."

 

Your statement above reminds me of an old line:

 

Shakespeare’s Hamlet, I, v, 166 “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy,†but also J.B.S. Haldane’s Possible Worlds, “I suspect that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in any philosophy.â€

 

 

 

Just because something seems to defy the "laws of physics" does not mean that actually has to. A hot air balloon might seem to defy the law of gravity, until one understands the situation better.

 

Absolutely. But then, if we're letting this game allow for phenomena based on principles that we don't yet understand, or that don't seem to conform to common sense, is it really necessary to stress over making the game conform more closely to common sense, and to principles that we do understand?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

Double the energy of any given attack' date=' and you'll find a vast number of conditions in the real world where the outcome doesn't support it being 2x as [u']effective[/u] either.

 

The real world is very counter-intuitive sometimes.

Agreed. I'm not claiming that game results are not sometimes a bit weird if examined logically, particularly since the real world is infinitely more complex than any gaming system can be. What I am saying is that there is ZERO basis for any assertation that +1d6 in the HERO system is "twice as good," be that good defined as "twice as effective" or "twice as powerful" or some other measure. It doesn't automatically work at twice the range, or defeat the enemy in half the time, or destroy an object twice as quickly, or take out twice as many targets. There is no consistent and universal criteria by which 9d6 can be plausibly described as twice as good as 8d6 or half as good as 10d6.

 

Particular cases may of course be made, especially when one takes defenses and Characteristics into account. But as a general rule, 11d6 is not 200% as good as 10d6, it is 10% better. A living target in HERO with 11 BODY is clearly not twice as hard to kill as one with 10 BODY, despite the fact that an attack with one additional die will do on average one more point of BODY per hit. So I'd say the entire notion that +5 STR is twice as powerful applies only to one aspect of Strength: Lifting. Not to Leaping, or Throwing, or delivering damage.

[TheEmerged]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

I generally don't like to repeat myself in posts, but I think this one is warranted.

 

If it matters enough to you that the complication is worth the trouble, by all means go for it. If not, don't. Math jokes aside, we aren't talking rocket science here.

 

This is a game, and the point of a game is to have fun. If something needs to be very realistic for you to enjoy it, that's your taste. Getting evangelical about it is not usually a good idea -- tastes vary. One of the best things HERO has over most systems, in my something-other-than-humble opionion, is the ease with which it accomodates other tastes.

 

For example, I use the Hit Location rules in place of the StunMod rules for killing attacks. I feel it alleviates the "stun lotto" and is more dramatic ("Your shadow bolt strikes NightDuck in the head, breaking his beak and improving his appearance..." ). I also feel that it eliminates a 'rogue mechanic', although this is a minor factor.

 

However, I feel this can make firearms too lethal for the superheroic genre. So I adopt a complication by which weapons with the "Real" limitation are limited to x2 Stun against superpowered opponents (anyone lacking Normal Characteristic Maxima). This is a complication that makes things work the way I want them to, but is a complication and some people feel the system is complicated enough. I certainly feel that way about the Hurry/HipShot options, which I've disallowed for my campaigns.

[Mister E]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

Agreed. I'm not claiming that game results are not sometimes a bit weird if examined logically, particularly since the real world is infinitely more complex than any gaming system can be. What I am saying is that there is ZERO basis for any assertation that +1d6 in the HERO system is "twice as good," be that good defined as "twice as effective" or "twice as powerful" or some other measure. It doesn't automatically work at twice the range, or defeat the enemy in half the time, or destroy an object twice as quickly, or take out twice as many targets. There is no consistent and universal criteria by which 9d6 can be plausibly described as twice as good as 8d6 or half as good as 10d6.

 

Particular cases may of course be made, especially when one takes defenses and Characteristics into account. But as a general rule, 11d6 is not 200% as good as 10d6, it is 10% better. A living target in HERO with 11 BODY is clearly not twice as hard to kill as one with 10 BODY, despite the fact that an attack with one additional die will do on average one more point of BODY per hit. So I'd say the entire notion that +5 STR is twice as powerful applies only to one aspect of Strength: Lifting. Not to Leaping, or Throwing, or delivering damage.

Okay. Hypothecial situation, here:

 

You have an object with 10 BODY, and you have another object with twice the mass of the first, composed of the exact same materials, with 11 BODY. The material both of these objects is made of has no DEF, for simplicity.

 

Lets think about this for a second. The second object is twice the matter of the first object, yet it does not have twice the BODY. It is only 1 bigger in BODY. That shift of +1 in BODY is meant to represent an object that is twice the mass of the first.

 

One Damage Class does an average of one BODY. If I have a 50 STR, I can punch objects and do 10 DC's worth of BODY, which is 10, and can on average destroy the first obect in one punch. If I have a 55 STR, I can do an average of 11 DC's worth of BODY, which is 11, and destroy the second object, which is twice the mass of the first object, in one punch.

 

Coincidently, if I have 55 STR I can lift twice as much as wieght as a man with only 50 STR. Along with that doubling in lifting power... I have just proved that a man with 55 STR can do twice as much damage to material than a man with 50 STR.

 

A man with 50 STR will have to hit an object with 11 BODY twice, on average, in order to break it. A man with 55 STR will only have to hit it once, on average.

 

5 STR = 1 DC = 1 BODY

 

+1 BODY = a doubling of mass... thus +1 DC, or +5 STR = the ability to do twice as much damage.

 

It is false to assume that 20 BODY is twice the matter of 10 BODY. Likewise it is false to assume that 20 DC's does twice the damage of 10 DC's.

 

The point where everything becomes wonkie, is where characters come in. A character can have whatever BODY he wants, and likewise, isn't going to be considered 'destroyed' until receiving twice his BODY in damage. This is totally cool, however, because heroes are supposed to contain some ineffable quality of story-telling that makes them much more than the sum of their base parts... and, the system distinguishes a difference between inanimate objects, and biological life-forms, for the purpose of game-play.

 

Another place where this concept of doubling breaks down, is in any situation beyond simple doubling, and I think this is your argument. 12 BODY is four times the material of 10 BODY, but without DEF, with 50 STR, you will only need to hit it twice... Likewise, with an object with 20 BODY, which (doing the math in my head) I think is 1248 times the material... two puches should do it. Oh well...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

Okay. Hypothecial situation, here:

 

You have an object with 10 BODY, and you have another object with twice the mass of the first, composed of the exact same materials, with 11 BODY. The material both of these objects is made of has no DEF, for simplicity.

 

Is this the way it works in HERO for objects? Somehow, I suspect you're right.... Because humans can have a STR from 1 -- 20 and they're still the same mass. ::goes to check book::

 

Lets think about this for a second. The second object is twice the matter of the first object' date=' yet it does not have twice the BODY. It is only 1 bigger in BODY. That shift of +1 in BODY is meant to represent an object that is twice the mass of the first.[/quote']

 

Theoretically, being twice as massive does not necessarily mean you're twice as resilient: why? Because the amount of damage needed to destroy an object doesn't have to destroy every single inch of the object... just break it, or render it useless in respect to the puropse it is made to serve. For example, if I hit a glass pane the size of a matchbook with a hammer, it will shatter. If I hit a glass pane the size of a computer monitor with a hammer, it would also shatter, but not into tiny pieces like the matchbook-sized pane: there'd be some much bigger shards... but the glass is STILL useless.

 

One Damage Class does an average of one BODY. If I have a 50 STR, I can punch objects and do 10 DC's worth of BODY, which is 10, and can on average destroy the first obect in one punch. If I have a 55 STR, I can do an average of 11 DC's worth of BODY, which is 11, and destroy the second object, which is twice the mass of the first object, in one punch.

 

Coincidently, if I have 55 STR I can lift twice as much as wieght as a man with only 50 STR. Along with that doubling in lifting power... I have just proved that a man with 55 STR can do twice as much damage to material than a man with 50 STR.

 

A man with 50 STR will have to hit an object with 11 BODY twice, on average, in order to break it. A man with 55 STR will only have to hit it once, on average.

 

5 STR = 1 DC = 1 BODY

 

Excellent deduction. It's simple, but I'd never taken the time to work it out in my head before... as soon as I started reading this section of your post, a light went on in my head, and I came up with just that formula.

 

+1 BODY = a doubling of mass... thus +1 DC, or +5 STR = the ability to do twice as much damage.

 

It is false to assume that 20 BODY is twice the matter of 10 BODY. Likewise it is false to assume that 20 DC's does twice the damage of 10 DC's.

 

Of course, living creatures are an exception. Their STR and BODY can vary wildly in a 100-kg package... doesn't click with the object BODY:STR ratio, but it never comes up in-game as anachronistic, so.

 

The point where everything becomes wonkie, is where characters come in. A character can have whatever BODY he wants, and likewise, isn't going to be considered 'destroyed' until receiving twice his BODY in damage. This is totally cool, however, because heroes are supposed to contain some ineffable quality of story-telling that makes them much more than the sum of their base parts... and, the system distinguishes a difference between inanimate objects, and biological life-forms, for the purpose of game-play.

 

Another place where this concept of doubling breaks down, is in any situation beyond simple doubling, and I think this is your argument. 12 BODY is four times the material of 10 BODY, but without DEF, with 50 STR, you will only need to hit it twice... Likewise, with an object with 20 BODY, which (doing the math in my head) I think is 1248 times the material... two puches should do it. Oh well...

 

ROFL... you already said what I just said responding to the first section of quote before this one. (I didn't read your post, I knew I wanted to respond from the first few words, so I clicked "Quote" right away).

 

In any case, a cool, logical examination of the system. Rep to you!

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

Okay. Hypothecial situation, here:

 

You have an object with 10 BODY, and you have another object with twice the mass of the first, composed of the exact same materials, with 11 BODY. The material both of these objects is made of has no DEF, for simplicity.

 

Lets think about this for a second. The second object is twice the matter of the first object, yet it does not have twice the BODY. It is only 1 bigger in BODY. That shift of +1 in BODY is meant to represent an object that is twice the mass of the first.

 

One Damage Class does an average of one BODY. If I have a 50 STR, I can punch objects and do 10 DC's worth of BODY, which is 10, and can on average destroy the first obect in one punch. If I have a 55 STR, I can do an average of 11 DC's worth of BODY, which is 11, and destroy the second object, which is twice the mass of the first object, in one punch.

 

Coincidently, if I have 55 STR I can lift twice as much as wieght as a man with only 50 STR. Along with that doubling in lifting power... I have just proved that a man with 55 STR can do twice as much damage to material than a man with 50 STR.

 

A man with 50 STR will have to hit an object with 11 BODY twice, on average, in order to break it. A man with 55 STR will only have to hit it once, on average.

 

5 STR = 1 DC = 1 BODY

 

+1 BODY = a doubling of mass... thus +1 DC, or +5 STR = the ability to do twice as much damage.

 

It is false to assume that 20 BODY is twice the matter of 10 BODY. Likewise it is false to assume that 20 DC's does twice the damage of 10 DC's.

 

The point where everything becomes wonkie, is where characters come in. A character can have whatever BODY he wants, and likewise, isn't going to be considered 'destroyed' until receiving twice his BODY in damage. This is totally cool, however, because heroes are supposed to contain some ineffable quality of story-telling that makes them much more than the sum of their base parts... and, the system distinguishes a difference between inanimate objects, and biological life-forms, for the purpose of game-play.

 

Another place where this concept of doubling breaks down, is in any situation beyond simple doubling, and I think this is your argument. 12 BODY is four times the material of 10 BODY, but without DEF, with 50 STR, you will only need to hit it twice... Likewise, with an object with 20 BODY, which (doing the math in my head) I think is 1248 times the material... two puches should do it. Oh well...

I don't know where you got the idea I think 20 BODY is twice as tough as 10 BODY. I've said no such thing. But, as you've observed, it certainly isn't 1024X as tough either.

 

I stated above one could find specific examples to support a "+1d6 is twice as powerful" theory, and you've just done exactly that. Let's rewrite your example above to show why it's not thought all the way through:

 

You have an object with 15 BODY, and you have another object with 32X the mass of the first, composed of the exact same materials, with 20 BODY. The material both of these objects is made of has no DEF, for simplicity. If I have a 50 STR, I can punch objects and do 10 DC's worth of BODY, which is 10, and can on average destroy the first object in two punches. If I have a 55 STR, I can do an average of 11 DC's worth of BODY, which is 11, and it still takes two punches to destroy.

 

Your example works only within a very artificial and theoretical situation; it certainly wouldn't be valid in any typical heroic or superheroic game where objects and opponents DO have DEF or defenses.

 

The only correct answer to "How much more powerful is an attack with an extra 1d6 of damage?" is "One more d6." It's not quantifiable beyond that.

[Mister E]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

You are, of course, right. However, despite the fact that the exponential factor of damage and BODY can only be shown accurately in a few scenarios before it breaks down into a more linear system, I think, at its heart, that this was the intended quality the system is meant to have... at least theoretically.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

You are' date=' of course, right. However, despite the fact that the exponential factor of damage and BODY can only be shown accurately in a few scenarios before it breaks down into a more linear system, I think, at its heart, that this was the intended quality the system is meant to have... at least theoretically.[/quote']It's just as easy to find non-exponential examples within the system. I prefer to stick with how the system works in actual play as opposed to worrying about its theoretical underpinnings; and thus I think it's sufficiently accurate to say that each +1d6 is just a bit better. In game play, 10d6 is only slightly more effective than 9d6. It cannot be reasonably described as twice as effective under most circumstances. It's an amusing topic for discussion, but it has no real bearing on game play or character effectiveness. How much the character can lift, throw, or leap is far more relevent than how much theoretical damage a character would be doing in the real world. Those effects of Strength can at least be precisely measured against the real world.

[Fox1]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

It's an amusing topic for discussion' date=' but it has no real bearing on game play or character effectiveness. [/quote']

 

Did anyone claim otherwise?

 

It's rather clear that the x2 effective is a HERO System hand wave useful only for making a general relationship between game and reality. Anyone actually playing the game understands it's a linear mechanical system.

 

Despite that however, the hand wave still exists. HERO says that the extra dice represents twice the power and that's that.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

HERO says that the extra dice represents twice the power and that's that.

Nowhere in HERO does it say that 15 STR represents anything more than twice the lifting power of 10 STR. It says absolutely nothing with regard to damage. And in matters of throwing and leaping' date=' it quite clearly does [u']not[/u] equate to twice as powerful. A character with 15 STR can jump only an extra 50% further than one with 10.

 

You are, of course, free to assign any interpretation on it you wish in your campaign. That doesn't make it right (or wrong).

[Fox1]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

Nowhere in HERO does it say that 15 STR represents anything more than twice the lifting power of 10 STR.).

 

You can do KE math on the Velocity Factor, you can do the same to firearms (5th edition modified a couple of the big bores, but other than that- it holds), given the same time value (nothing to indicate differently exists in the rules) you can even do a KE value for the lifts.

 

They all follow the x2 progression.

 

I haven't check, but I'm willing to bet the 'realistic' throwing and leaping tables also match.

 

Given all those values- any assumption of something different is purely wishfull thinking on someone's part.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

I'd like to point out that Casual Str is used to immediately shake off Grabs (before the attacker has a chance to Throw or Squeeze). I think this is a very important aspect of the mechanic (probably the most important). In this sense, it has little or nothing to do with lifting capacity. Unless you wish to disentangle this from the mechanics for shoving aside, "small," obstacles, changing to a Str-x Casual Str system could really tweak game balance.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

good point, casual str really is interconnected for all of the small things we expect a super strong character to do

[shaunclinton]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

A few things:

 

First up, Casual Strength isn't effortless. It costs END. The current system isn't too bad. If I, a STR 15 normal guy, run in a straight line and a STR 5 child tries to stop me I'll probably knock it out of the way without slowing down one iota, same if I need to throw open a hinged door with no lock in my way... it'll have a negligible effect on my progress, so that's casual STR.

 

As for the doubling of the 'energy' with each DC. This is a nice idea which the HERO system backs in some places and doesn't in others.

 

If the system was actually set up to see this notion through, characters would be virtually identical. The difference between 8DC attacks and 10DC attacks would be insurmountable.

 

However, I suspect the main 'broken' part of the system is the +1 BODY = x2 Mass, which I think is just a convenient mechanic that makes large objects breakable to supers.

 

A rule that would be more in keeping with the system would be if every +5 BODY (or maybe even every 5 active points of BODY) represented a rough doubling of mass. This way the 10-20 BODY range for humans wouldn't be as ridiculous and it would mean that if a 200kg meteor has 10 BODY then a 400kg brother wouldn't have BODY 11, leaving my 300kg mate with nowhere to go. Whereas in my brave new world the meteor's would have 10, 15 and 13 BODY respectively! Of course, this would make large objects take forever to destroy! But there has to be a trade off somewhere.

[Phil]

Re: Casual STR = Negligible Effort?

 

I'm sorry, this will probably sound snarky, but I must admit that I'm amused when gamers try to extrapolate the standards of real life to situations that couldn't exist in real life.

 

Then I suggest you go back and re-read some of the Hero System rules! There are some incredibly complicated simulationist elements in there, which I try to pretend dont exist! Perhaps this is necessary to make it a truly generic game, but to my mind it over-complicates things.

 

Casual STR is just a handy rule to adjudicate a situation played for dramatic effect. Like many dramatic effects it doesn't bear close scrutiny, nor is it intended to.

Are you suggesting that casual strength become a Supers-specific genre rule? I'm not sure I'd disagree with this, given that most game functions of casual strength arent related to lifting, but to movement.

 

Phil

[Fox1]

Re: What is Casual STR meant to be?

 

I also typically use Casual STR to provide basic resistance to knockback from expected attacks.

 

Mirrors the ability of bricks to hang in a fight without having to buy knockback resistance for every single one of them.

 

I have no interest in changing the rule to something more 'realistic'. The gain isn't worth the effort and resulting changes.

 

Heck, I still consider bring back the 1.5x haymaker rule now and then.