Bluffing Skill

[Labrat]

I've used Acting in some cases and Persuasion in others, because I think that both are complimentary to each other. Any opinions? I don't think it's worthy of a 'new' skill, but like I said if your Acting is higher then use that, if your Persuasion is higher then use that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

I think persuasion is the correct choice. You're trying to persuade someone that you are correct.

[Fox1]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

I'd use simple Persuasion vs. an single person, not acting.

 

Acting and/or disguise would be used if you're attempting to 'order' or command someone to do something they would normally do for that person.

 

Example: A General does not convince or ask a Lt. to do something- they command it, and thus persuasion is not the skill in question but rather your ability to 'be' a General.

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

OK, here's the logic behind 'Acting'. If you don't have any idea what you are talking about, or if you are in way over your head, or if you are at the disadvantage then the Bluffing skill would be considered 'buying your BS'. If you do know what you are talking about but you don't want to give information away, you want to convince someone else you don't know what they are asking for or if you have the upper hand and wish to misdirect I would call that 'Persuasion'.

 

So:

Bluff = Acting = BS roll

or

Bluff = Persuasion = Misdirect roll

 

Hope this makes sense.

[MitchellS]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

To my mind acting is only the ability to convince someone that you are not the person you claim to be. If you are trying to bluff someone into believing you are the Prince of Wales, then I'd suggest acting [along with disguise]. If you're trying to bluff someone into backing down from a fight I'd use persuasion. It's situational as to what skill you might use.

 

Of course I have long said that all of the "persuasion" skills are really just a single skill use in different ways.

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

To my mind acting is only the ability to convince someone that you are not the person you claim to be. If you are trying to bluff someone into believing you are the Prince of Wales' date=' then I'd suggest acting [along with disguise']. If you're trying to bluff someone into backing down from a fight I'd use persuasion. It's situational as to what skill you might use.

 

Of course I have long said that all of the "persuasion" skills are really just a single skill use in different ways.

 

I can definately see your point, my hardwire wants to keep either option open. Which brings to mind Seduction... Seduction is just another form of Persuasion AND Bribery in my mind, if she's got something offer that you want then she can use Persuasion along with that bait to talk you into anything. Lots of gray tones here between these PRE based skills.

[Fox1]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Lots of gray tones here between these PRE based skills.

 

Actually I see a lot of people making something that was intended to be (and in fact is) easy difficult.

[nexus]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Persuasion with Acting as complimentary if the "role" somehow support what you're trying to bluff the person into.

 

Persuasion to talk a tough out of a fight. Acting would help if your currently pretending to Muscles Marinara, local crime boss..

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

I've used Acting in some cases and Persuasion in others' date=' because I think that both are complimentary to each other. Any opinions? I don't think it's worthy of a 'new' skill, but like I said if your Acting is higher then use that, if your Persuasion is higher then use that.[/quote']

All of the Interaction Skills can be used for different kinds or aspects of a "Bluff". It's all situational.

[nexus]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

All of the Interaction Skills can be used for different kinds or aspects of a "Bluff". It's all situational.

 

And using Seduction on that thug while impersonating Muscles could have some interesting results.

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Four scenarios, name the PRE skill (Acting, Bribery, Persuasion, Seduction):

a) Batguy has caught up with Filthy Fingers Donovan who was running from the scene of an arson. Filthy tells Batguy to back it up because he left a little old lady tied up in a closet within the burning building...

 

Eve Sensuality has Jim Stock at her mercy, she's managed to poison his drink... now all she has to do is get him to drink it. When he calls her out on it she tells him that she didn't poison his drink, she merely added some liquid Viagra.

 

c) Captain Knucklehead is being boarded by the Interspace Anti-Bootleg Force and he doesn't want them finding the 3kg of illegal Loonax he's been blackmailed into delivering because the space drug cartel has his son and will let him go upon delivery. Capt. Knucklehead has a spotless record and is highly regarded in the Conglomeration Space Fleet so all he has to do is stay cool while he's talking to the Space-Fuzz and he'll be on his way.

 

d) Eeky the moderately-intelligent and speaking gorilla sidekick of Dr. Primate is guarding the room that Renegade Fisticuffs is being held in. Renegade concocts a plan to get Eeky to escort him outside the room where Renegade says he has some bananas that he happens to be carrying in his now-confiscated briefcase.

 

I can see that there is some acting necessary in all of these scenarios, at least enough to make it either a complimentary skill or the skill to roll for if it's the highest PRE roll the character has. Good acting makes the words believable, whereas Persuasion makes the case agreeable... yes?

[Fox1]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Good acting makes the words believable' date=' whereas Persuasion makes the case agreeable... yes?[/quote']

 

I would not agree.

 

Rather I see this as a incorrect use of the Acting skill solely to gain undeserved bonuses to the roll.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Four scenarios, name the PRE skill (Acting, Bribery, Persuasion, Seduction):

a) Batguy has caught up with Filthy Fingers Donovan who was running from the scene of an arson. Filthy tells Batguy to back it up because he left a little old lady tied up in a closet within the burning building...

 

Eve Sensuality has Jim Stock at her mercy, she's managed to poison his drink... now all she has to do is get him to drink it. When he calls her out on it she tells him that she didn't poison his drink, she merely added some liquid Viagra.

 

c) Captain Knucklehead is being boarded by the Interspace Anti-Bootleg Force and he doesn't want them finding the 3kg of illegal Loonax he's been blackmailed into delivering because the space drug cartel has his son and will let him go upon delivery. Capt. Knucklehead has a spotless record and is highly regarded in the Conglomeration Space Fleet so all he has to do is stay cool while he's talking to the Space-Fuzz and he'll be on his way.

 

d) Eeky the moderately-intelligent and speaking gorilla sidekick of Dr. Primate is guarding the room that Renegade Fisticuffs is being held in. Renegade concocts a plan to get Eeky to escort him outside the room where Renegade says he has some bananas that he happens to be carrying in his now-confiscated briefcase.

 

I can see that there is some acting necessary in all of these scenarios, at least enough to make it either a complimentary skill or the skill to roll for if it's the highest PRE roll the character has. Good acting makes the words believable, whereas Persuasion makes the case agreeable... yes?

 

 

No. They arent Acting, they're Interacting. It is a subtle difference, but a difference nontheless.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Like others have said, all the Interaction Skills can be useful. Here is how I see it with regard to those situations being most heavily debated here:

• Acting: Convincing someone you aren't nervous or upset.
  
• Persuasion: Directly trying to convince someone of a lie or to follow a course of action.
  
• Seduction: Getting someone to feel good enough toward you that they don't care what you did or that there might be something out of place in the situation.
  
• Presence Attack: For directly overpowering someone's will without any kind of subterfuge once their course of action has been decided (e.g. "Back off!")

 

So here is how I would call it.

 

Four scenarios, name the PRE skill (Acting, Bribery, Persuasion, Seduction):

a) Batguy has caught up with Filthy Fingers Donovan who was running from the scene of an arson. Filthy tells Batguy to back it up because he left a little old lady tied up in a closet within the burning building...

Persuasion

 

Eve Sensuality has Jim Stock at her mercy, she's managed to poison his drink... now all she has to do is get him to drink it. When he calls her out on it she tells him that she didn't poison his drink, she merely added some liquid Viagra.

A failed Sleight of Hand roll (if he was in the room during the poisoning), or a failed Acting roll (if he was out of the room). Persuasion to convince him it is something other than it is once he notices something is up.

 

c) Captain Knucklehead is being boarded by the Interspace Anti-Bootleg Force and he doesn't want them finding the 3kg of illegal Loonax he's been blackmailed into delivering because the space drug cartel has his son and will let him go upon delivery. Capt. Knucklehead has a spotless record and is highly regarded in the Conglomeration Space Fleet so all he has to do is stay cool while he's talking to the Space-Fuzz and he'll be on his way.

Acting. Persuasion might be useful if they decide to search the ship anyway: he could convince them that one area of the ship is too dangerous to be worth the bother, or that he is really transporting top secret equipment that was relabeled as an illegal substance because he is traveling into a bad area of space and wants to alleviate the suspicions of the notorious inhabitants. If he decides to come clean instead, Seduction might be useful to make them more likely to believe his honesty about being blackmailed, or simply take pity on him because he is otherwise such a good, upstanding fellow.

 

d) Eeky the moderately-intelligent and speaking gorilla sidekick of Dr. Primate is guarding the room that Renegade Fisticuffs is being held in. Renegade concocts a plan to get Eeky to escort him outside the room where Renegade says he has some bananas that he happens to be carrying in his now-confiscated briefcase.

Persuasion. If there really are bananas or some other treat, Seduction might be helpful while they sit down and share some snacks and conversation; perhaps Eeky would rather work for someone with a more ready supply of bananas? On the other hand, if the bananas are waved in front of Eeky's face, and offered under the condition of Renegade's release, that's Bribery (probably with some negatives if he was already offered the bananas inside); oh, and don't fail that roll badly!

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Oof. This got exhausting fast...

 

Maybe I'll just tuck it under Gambling and be done with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Where does Oratory fit into these scenarios...?

 

 

*tosses fuel, runs*

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Oratory is used when your audience is captive, more telling than interactive, sure used as Persuasion is but works beyond person-to-person.

 

You make head hurt more!

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Hey! I was just reading about this (in my first-ever perusal of the rules).

 

These things are complementary. So if, in your second example, she wanted to convince him to drink the poisoned beverage, you have her roll her Seduction, see how much she made it by. Every 2 makes the primary skill roll +1. Do the same for her Acting to see how well she convinced him, by her mannerisms, that she means him no harm. Then it's a Persuasion roll to get him to actually drink it.

 

Other than that, based on that one paragraph I read 6 times, it's up to the GM when it isn't perfectly clear which skill is the primary. If they only have 1 of the above skills, use that one.

 

I'm currently running an NPC with Pathological Liar as a Psych Disad. I've had him rolling mostly Acting to get away with his lies.

[Labrat]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Hey! I was just reading about this (in my first-ever perusal of the rules).

 

These things are complementary. So if, in your second example, she wanted to convince him to drink the poisoned beverage, you have her roll her Seduction, see how much she made it by. Every 2 makes the primary skill roll +1. Do the same for her Acting to see how well she convinced him, by her mannerisms, that she means him no harm. Then it's a Persuasion roll to get him to actually drink it.

 

Other than that, based on that one paragraph I read 6 times, it's up to the GM when it isn't perfectly clear which skill is the primary. If they only have 1 of the above skills, use that one.

 

I'm currently running an NPC with Pathological Liar as a Psych Disad. I've had him rolling mostly Acting to get away with his lies.

 

I agree with your assessment, but then again it may be such a situational choice that you'd need 3-5 skills in order to have a character who's a good bluffer! (Bluffer?) Would a Pathological Liar have to Bluff? I remember the words of the wiseman Costanza when he said:

 

"Remember, Jerry, it's not a lie if you believe it's true."

 

...but I would allow the use of Acting in this case, because there's more of making people buy your words that are truly false. If they knew you were a liar then you'd have to Persuade them when you were telling the truth. If you were trying to get something out of them using sensual bait then you'd be Seducing them.

If you were trying to get something out of them using goods or services to buy their agreement then that would be Bribery.

If you were trying to get something out of them by using force then that would be Interrogation.

If you were trying to influence a crowd then it would be Oratory.

Mentioned Gambling before was a bit tongue and cheek, but it actually may be the skill that has the closest elements to true bluffing... however the focus isn't on the social intricacies of gambling as it is on know-how of the games themselves with such interaction thrown in as part of the assumption.

Acting, in my opinin, can indeed substitute any of the above skills but not alone. If you have even a FAM level (ES) of any of the above then I agree that they can be complimentary to bluffing (by my definition).

 

Here's the definition from Dictionary.com:

bluff1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (blf)

v. bluffed, bluff·ing, bluffs

v. tr.

1. To mislead or deceive.

2. To impress, deter, or intimidate by a false display of confidence.

 

A False Display of Confidence typically requires some kind of conjured emotional start-point. If Acting doesn't do this better than Persuasion, then why have an Acting skill at all? It's such a fine line between pretending to be someone and Persuading someone to believe who you are. Again, it's a pretty gray area.

[zornwil]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

Shrug, I don't see an issue if people want to set up a bluff skill by itself. I don't think the core rules need any changing in this regard, they point the way towards skill nuance and if one needs such a specific skill that handles bluffing regardless of other PRE-based abilities, I don't see a big issue. Just has to be watched for becoming a catch-all for other PRE-based skills, but that can be said of any number of the less physical-based skills in general.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

OK, here's the logic behind 'Acting'. If you don't have any idea what you are talking about, or if you are in way over your head, or if you are at the disadvantage then the Bluffing skill would be considered 'buying your BS'. If you do know what you are talking about but you don't want to give information away, you want to convince someone else you don't know what they are asking for or if you have the upper hand and wish to misdirect I would call that 'Persuasion'.

 

So:

Bluff = Acting = BS roll

or

Bluff = Persuasion = Misdirect roll

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

makes sense to me, that's how i do it

[Fitz]

Re: Bluffing Skill

 

It seems pretty straightforward to me. In a situation where body language is preeminent (e.g. feinting in combat, flying casual etc.), then Acting is the primary skill used to bluff, maybe with Persuasion (or other Interaction skill of your choice) in support. If the words are more important (e.g. lying over the telephone, convincing a guard that although shackled to the eyeballs and unable to move, you're actually the heir to the realm and he'd better let you go, etc.) then Persuasion will be primary. If hormones, then Seduction, und so weiter.

 

I'm amazed that such a simple thing could generate so much traffic.

 

No, wait, I'm not surprised.