Experience points question

[rogerfcw]

Hello,

 

I'm new to HERO and struggling a bit with the rules. A quick question on some creatures in the Bestiary.

 

What do the "experience points" represent when listed in the Disadvantages section? It's obvious that the Disads are less than the Ads in cost, but I don't understand the purpose of the "experience points" listed.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Experience points question

 

Hello,

 

I'm new to HERO and struggling a bit with the rules. A quick question on some creatures in the Bestiary.

 

What do the "experience points" represent when listed in the Disadvantages section? It's obvious that the Disads are less than the Ads in cost, but I don't understand the purpose of the "experience points" listed.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

They make the math balance. If it's not base points, and it's not disadvantages, it must be experience points.

 

I also use them as a measure of how long the character has been around, so a brand-new Super with 150 extra points will have a higher base, but one who's been around a long time will have the same base poiints as standard, plus xp.

[rogerfcw]

Re: Experience points question

 

Woah! Didn't expect an answer so fast. Thanks.

 

But the answer brought on more... yes, it's obvious that the experience points helps balance the lower cost Disads against the Ads bought.

 

But that would, in essence, mean that the creature has more Ads than Disads, so would the experience points be what the creature "owes" for its creation?

 

Wouldn't the imbalance outside of the math mean that PCs will have a harder time taking on the particular creature?

[MitchellS]

Re: Experience points question

 

Experience is really just another name for "bonus" in this regard. It really has nothing to do with experience. In a point-based game A must equal B. The bonus points allow that to happen.

 

How hard it is for the PCs to take on a creature is usually based on total points, not bonus points. A 200 point creature is a 200 point creature, whether it gained 150 points from disads or from bonus points.

[rogerfcw]

Re: Experience points question

 

Ok. Last attempt on understanding this.

 

200 pts creature with 125 pts disads is as good as a 200 pts creature with 25 disads and 100 exp?

 

So this means that disads aren't?

 

Thanks for helping me out here...

[Mister E]

Re: Experience points question

 

Disads don't mean jack... they are there just for flavor. It's all about the character points. Some people skip disads entirely, only bothering to take them if they need to flesh out their character a little better.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Experience points question

 

I got into HERO because I thought someone had come up with a system to make character creation fair and balanced.

 

Despite my poor little delusions being blown away over the years, I'm still here.

 

1. Even on the same points, two characters built different ways will not be equal.

2. When creating an enemy/antagonist the important thing is to challenge the PCs, so you may need something a little sparkier than the base+disads allow.

3. You could do it by upping the base points if you like.

4. Think of the numbers as a guideline to relative power/utility, rather than hard and fast rules. Some stuff that is really useful costs but a little, some stuff that is far more flavour than power costs a lot, but overall the numbers give you an at a glance comparison for characters created with similar goals in mind.

 

I hope that helps.

[rogerfcw]

Re: Experience points question

 

Ok... I'll take that away with me from here....

 

I guess it'll take me some time to get used to the system...

 

Thanks guys!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Experience points question

 

200 pts creature with 125 pts disads is as good as a 200 pts creature with 25 disads and 100 exp?

It depends on the disads. They should limit the character/creature in some way, or the ref shouldn't have given any points for them. The problem is, not all of them will limit the creature IN COMBAT. So if your 125-pt disad creature has 125 points from social limitations, illiteracy and the like, then yes it’ll fight the same as if it all those points had come from experience. OTOH, if the disad points come from vulnerability to water, or severe physical limitations and the like, then it would obviously make a difference.

 

One trick you can try to help balance your beasties (and other NPCs) is to calculate a combat-only version, ignoring the cost of everything (skills, perks, powers, disads, whatever) that is not likely to be a help/hindrance in combat. I refer to this as the “wargame cost†and it should give you a general idea of how tough he/she/it should be to take down. But the most important thing is how powerful the creature's attacks and defenses are compared to your PCs' defenses and attacks.

 

Sorry, it’s an art not a science.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Don't give me any of that 'Star Trek' crap. It's too early in the morning.â€

[archermoo]

Re: Experience points question

 

Disads don't mean jack... they are there just for flavor. It's all about the character points. Some people skip disads entirely' date=' only bothering to take them if they need to flesh out their character a little better.[/quote']

 

Just as a note, not everyone plays this way. For some of us disads mean more than just flavour.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Experience points question

 

Just as a note' date=' not everyone plays this way. For some of us disads mean more than just flavour.[/quote']

 

In combat, that 30 point disad for "2x Stun and BOD from fire and heat attacks" makes the character not at all reduced in usefulness if his opponents lack such attacks, but reduce his efficiency a lot more than 30 points if he's in combat against a troupe of fire mages.

 

The points don't tell the whole story.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Experience points question

 

The simple answer: To make all the math balance out.

[archermoo]

Re: Experience points question

 

In combat, that 30 point disad for "2x Stun and BOD from fire and heat attacks" makes the character not at all reduced in usefulness if his opponents lack such attacks, but reduce his efficiency a lot more than 30 points if he's in combat against a troupe of fire mages.

 

The points don't tell the whole story.

 

Very true. Not sure if you thoght I disagreed with that or not. The post of mine you quoted was a response to Mister E's post:

 

Disads don't mean jack... they are there just for flavor. It's all about the character points. Some people skip disads entirely' date=' only bothering to take them if they need to flesh out their character a little better.[/quote']

 

I didn't say anything about all equal point characters being equally powerful. I simply stated that not everyone plays like Mister E stated. By which I was refering to "Disads don't mean jack... they are there just for flavor".

 

I heartily agree that points don't tell the whole story. I just don't agree that disads are meaningless except as flavour.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Experience points question

 

I heartily agree that points don't tell the whole story. I just don't agree that disads are meaningless except as flavour.

 

Disads are as meaningful (or meaningless) as you want them to be in game.

 

A GM can just as easily run a game where your powers are virtually useless as one where your disad's nevre become disadvantageous.

 

"Gosh, FireGuy, another set of Viper agents with asbestos suits and water weapons. What were the odds?"

 

A good GM will give all the PC's abilities - positive and negative - a chance to shine.

[archermoo]

Re: Experience points question

 

Disads are as meaningful (or meaningless) as you want them to be in game.

 

A GM can just as easily run a game where your powers are virtually useless as one where your disad's nevre become disadvantageous.

 

"Gosh, FireGuy, another set of Viper agents with asbestos suits and water weapons. What were the odds?"

 

A good GM will give all the PC's abilities - positive and negative - a chance to shine.

 

Yup. Exactly my point. Some people enforce disadvantages, and some people don't. Some enforce some, and don't enforce others. It mostly depends on who the Ref is. Hence my statement that not everyone plays the way Mister E does, i.e. with disads not mattering at all. I'm not quite sure what (if anything) you think we disagree about here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Experience points question

 

I'm not quite sure what (if anything) you think we disagree about here.

 

I think you and I are in agreement, actually. Disadvantages, like limitations, powers, skills, etc., have as much or as little impact as the plaing group wants and the GM creates.

[archermoo]

Re: Experience points question

 

I think you and I are in agreement' date=' actually. Disadvantages, like limitations, powers, skills, etc., have as much or as little impact as the plaing group wants and the GM creates.[/quote']

 

Bingo!

 

I seem to have a talant for arguing with people that I agree with...

 

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Experience points question

 

One thing I've learned about the HERO System: When constructing monsters and NPCs, it's best to essentially ignore character points, and focus on overall effectiveness of the character.