Damage Reduction

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Here is a basic concept, which I will call "The Ultimate Solution".

 

If an ability or object provides the means to get out of practically every conceivable problem that it can get you in to, then it is an "ultimate solution".

 

For example, if I have a disintegration power then the idea of people coming to arrest me if I kill people with it indiscriminantly is not a credible check unless the people coming after me are immune to disintegration. If nothing is, then it is in some ways an Ultimate Solution. The problems inherent in using it to destroy things are basically surmountable by using the ability more. However, that is a fragile sort of Ultimate Solution inasmuch not everything can be solved by violence. I mean, its really bad, but at leasts its a narrowly applicable bad.

 

On the other hand, the ability to move around between dimensions that are made to order to suit my criteria on demand is so much more effective. Any conceivable repercussions of using this ability are pretty easily surmounted by using the ability more. It is its own reward. And it's not predicated on simple violence; it's much more broad; practically unfettered by any sort of logical check. If it is possible at all, then the only things that are not possible are arbitrarily so.

 

To even limit such an ability the GM must state what it can and can't do; in effect the GM is defining new rules applicable to their own game, making arbitrary decisions about what is and is not possible regardless of anything in the rulebook. It is, in effect, a GM Fiat. A decree from on high, as it were.

 

Here's my position: The only person in a HERO's gaming group that has the ability to "alter reality" in the game is the GM, whether directly or by allowing players to do it. Whenever a GM allows it to be done he is in effect issuing a GM's Fiat. Everything else is window dressing.

 

 

EDM does not change reality; nothing about it deals with reality altering; it is an unnecessary kludge for altering reality.

Well of course. Your setting's whole reality has to have a topography that allows EDM to be used for changing, "the real world's," immediate reality. If you have a completely closed set of dimensions, this is not a possibility. If you allow for some, "infinite variance," it becomes an option.

 

The thing is, this seems to me to be a pretty common practice, and any dimensional model can be enhanced to take advantage of it. For example, if my fantasy world has a, "two-dimensional," array of finite planar dimensions, I can simply add another infinitely graduated axis or three along which to extrude some or all of my finite planar dimensions, and these extra axes become my medium for, "altering reality."

 

Just like magic systems in general, this kind of thing has to be balanced in some way by restrictions and limitations. In my case, it is not simple to pick the correct dimension (requires Power Skill rolls, with penalties that depend on the amount of difference between the old and new dimensions), there may be unintended consequences, and powerful beings compete to determine the fate of, "the real world"--a struggle that PCs probably don't want to get very heavily involved in (compete with the gods? Mmm...only very carefully!).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I left out the most important part: this scheme of, "reality-altering," can be fun! It creates a model by which you can imagine ways to thwart, "reality-altering," abilities: Powers that are Transdimensional, abilities that pull you into a relatively, "stable," region (i.e. one that changes little with movement along the, "reality changing," axes) of the multiverse for a time, etc. I suppose you could do the same thing with a tremendously huge Transform ability, but then it just feels to me like Transform vs. Power Defense, without a great deal of room for expansion.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Which talks completely in a circle around the actual point' date=' which is that EDM is a Movement Power and not an Alter Reality Power.[/quote']

Which was my original and my still-maintained point. But using it as the basis for altering "one's" reality can be used in such circumstances and can have interesting effects - even if those effects end up never acted on (in which case it solely affected reality). My point was and remains that the SFX of the reality alteration might be addressed with EDM, depending.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Here is a basic concept, which I will call "The Ultimate Solution".

 

If an ability or object provides the means to get out of practically every conceivable problem that it can get you in to, then it is an "ultimate solution".

 

For example, if I have a disintegration power then the idea of people coming to arrest me if I kill people with it indiscriminantly is not a credible check unless the people coming after me are immune to disintegration. If nothing is, then it is in some ways an Ultimate Solution. The problems inherent in using it to destroy things are basically surmountable by using the ability more. However, that is a fragile sort of Ultimate Solution inasmuch not everything can be solved by violence. I mean, its really bad, but at leasts its a narrowly applicable bad.

 

On the other hand, the ability to move around between dimensions that are made to order to suit my criteria on demand is so much more effective. Any conceivable repercussions of using this ability are pretty easily surmounted by using the ability more. It is its own reward. And it's not predicated on simple violence; it's much more broad; practically unfettered by any sort of logical check. If it is possible at all, then the only things that are not possible are arbitrarily so.

 

To even limit such an ability the GM must state what it can and can't do; in effect the GM is defining new rules applicable to their own game, making arbitrary decisions about what is and is not possible regardless of anything in the rulebook. It is, in effect, a GM Fiat. A decree from on high, as it were.

 

Here's my position: The only person in a HERO's gaming group that has the ability to "alter reality" in the game is the GM, whether directly or by allowing players to do it. Whenever a GM allows it to be done he is in effect issuing a GM's Fiat. Everything else is window dressing.

 

 

EDM does not change reality; nothing about it deals with reality altering; it is an unnecessary kludge for altering reality.

Sure, but the "ultimate solution" (good identification) is an ongoing issue as has been evidenced with Transform and the like, it's something that is even the bane of fiction itself, as evidenced with the Star Trek transporter-cure solution, which the writers banned.

 

It's just all about balance. An EDM that "changes reality" with no consequence and (notably) no actual movement is nothing more than a terrible kludge; an EDM that moves people into some reality they perceive as no different aside from a single detail could be interesting, if in fact it supports the SFX and is balanced.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Well of course. Your setting's whole reality has to have a topography that allows EDM to be used for changing, "the real world's," immediate reality. If you have a completely closed set of dimensions, this is not a possibility. If you allow for some, "infinite variance," it becomes an option.

 

The thing is, this seems to me to be a pretty common practice, and any dimensional model can be enhanced to take advantage of it. For example, if my fantasy world has a, "two-dimensional," array of finite planar dimensions, I can simply add another infinitely graduated axis or three along which to extrude some or all of my finite planar dimensions, and these extra axes become my medium for, "altering reality."

 

Just like magic systems in general, this kind of thing has to be balanced in some way by restrictions and limitations. In my case, it is not simple to pick the correct dimension (requires Power Skill rolls, with penalties that depend on the amount of difference between the old and new dimensions), there may be unintended consequences, and powerful beings compete to determine the fate of, "the real world"--a struggle that PCs probably don't want to get very heavily involved in (compete with the gods? Mmm...only very carefully!).

 

Which all sounds very interesting, but does nothing to establish why you use EDM as its basis.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Which was my original and my still-maintained point. But using it as the basis for altering "one's" reality can be used in such circumstances and can have interesting effects - even if those effects end up never acted on (in which case it solely affected reality). My point was and remains that the SFX of the reality alteration might be addressed with EDM' date=' depending.[/quote']

And what I meant was your example discusses EDM used as intended to literally travel to another dimension in a verifiable way, as opposed to being used to alter existing reality in the character's original dimension. Thus it doesn't address the central point of not using EDM to Alter Reality.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

And what I meant was your example discusses EDM used as intended to literally travel to another dimension in a verifiable way' date=' as opposed to being used to alter existing reality in the character's original dimension. Thus it doesn't address the central point of not using EDM to Alter Reality.[/quote']

Unless of course the GM simply leaves it at that and never "makes waves" so to speak with the traveling of a wide party to a reality identical other than for the thing desired to be changed.

 

I'm just saying that while I don't like the EDM to change reality, I can see some SFX that might warrant it, though they'd be (to me, anyway) rare.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Okay... this is the way I see it:

 

All of reality (or existence) is basically the ultimate result of random potentiality, right? Depending on the cosmology of your campaign, the concept of alternate realities could be less "this is another place to explore", and more "this is the same place, only differing in resultant potentiality".

 

That being the case, you could ask yourself, "Self... if I give my character XDM to alternate realities... what exactly does that mean?"

 

The answer would be, "Well, Self... what it means is your character has the ability to alter the ultimate resultant potentiality of the entire Universe around him. Huh... wierd. Maybe I aught to raise the active point cost of that Power."

 

 

 

In the end... its all about how you conceptualize the cosmology of your campaign. Discussions about time travel and paradox could fall under the same route as this.

 

If someone would please nail down what the cost of the "Megascale: Universal" Advantage, things would be a lot simpler.

 

 

As a side note: How do you Target the UNIVERSE, anyhow? Is it like a battleship? How much Power DEF would you give the UNIVERSE? Do you think it is an XD Target, or Desolid?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Unless of course the GM simply leaves it at that and never "makes waves" so to speak with the traveling of a wide party to a reality identical other than for the thing desired to be changed.

 

Which the GM could do anyway without EDM ever entering the picture.

 

I'm just saying that while I don't like the EDM to change reality, I can see some SFX that might warrant it, though they'd be (to me, anyway) rare.

 

For some one who doesnt like EDM as change reality, you sure seem intent on advocating it. Sounds like double talk to me.

[Arsenal]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I would like to say up front, I don't like EDM as Alter Reality or Desolidification as Immunity (especially not without purchasing "Affects Physical World" on relevant abilities). Heck, there's an awful lot of power builds in the source material that I consider clumsy or ill-conceived. However...

 

I feel that the Hero system needs to move toward greater permissiveness rather than restriction. I would rather the system gave me the tools to build literally anything and that the GMs would have to pay attention to what their players bring forth and veto ideas that don't fit in their games. There's a difference between a legitimate character build and a good character. Just because Hero publishes a power construction doesn't mean the GM has to allow it or use it. I don't consider any power construction to be canon outside of FrED. (And it kills me that Instant Change, Regen, and others suffer for my considering those canon!) Maybe that's just splitting hairs, but the folks writing the material tend to build most of their powers with a specific power level or style of game in mind and it behooves us to recognize that. I mean, EDM basically states that it requires a lot of GM involvement - I can't imagine running a game where I said "Oh, EDM? Yeah, do whatever you like."

 

Part of what I'm getting at is that I don't, for my part, disagree with you. However, I know there are changes wrought in FrED that I dislike that I suspect are the result of more vocal parties making their opinions known. I would rather see the system allow something and call upon the GM to exercise their wisdom than see another castrated power show up in the next edition. (Woe are those who did not abuse Aid!) So if the kludge gamers want to make wishes on their EDMs, they can go do it in someone else's game. Hell, anyone who wants to Alter Reality is barking up the wrong GMly tree coming to me - unless that's the game I'm pitching at the moment. (I already had that happen once - I learned my lesson.)

 

Maybe it would help if I asked a question: Are you running a Champions Universe sort of thing where the canonical power builds cause problems, or is this more an abject and ravening hatred of all things kludge?

 

Oh, and regarding the original topic: I think Damage Reduction falls into a lot of the same area. If it's not right for your game, say no. If it's messing up your game, talk to the player and find a fix. Also, rather than buy limited Body, Stun, etcetera, why not buy Armor with a Limitation like "Only up to X% of the damage"? Just a thought.

 

Arsenal

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I would like to say up front, I don't like EDM as Alter Reality or Desolidification as Immunity (especially not without purchasing "Affects Physical World" on relevant abilities). Heck, there's an awful lot of power builds in the source material that I consider clumsy or ill-conceived. However...

 

I feel that the Hero system needs to move toward greater permissiveness rather than restriction. I would rather the system gave me the tools to build literally anything and that the GMs would have to pay attention to what their players bring forth and veto ideas that don't fit in their games. There's a difference between a legitimate character build and a good character. Just because Hero publishes a power construction doesn't mean the GM has to allow it or use it. I don't consider any power construction to be canon outside of FrED. (And it kills me that Instant Change, Regen, and others suffer for my considering those canon!) Maybe that's just splitting hairs, but the folks writing the material tend to build most of their powers with a specific power level or style of game in mind and it behooves us to recognize that. I mean, EDM basically states that it requires a lot of GM involvement - I can't imagine running a game where I said "Oh, EDM? Yeah, do whatever you like."

 

Part of what I'm getting at is that I don't, for my part, disagree with you. However, I know there are changes wrought in FrED that I dislike that I suspect are the result of more vocal parties making their opinions known. I would rather see the system allow something and call upon the GM to exercise their wisdom than see another castrated power show up in the next edition. (Woe are those who did not abuse Aid!) So if the kludge gamers want to make wishes on their EDMs, they can go do it in someone else's game. Hell, anyone who wants to Alter Reality is barking up the wrong GMly tree coming to me - unless that's the game I'm pitching at the moment. (I already had that happen once - I learned my lesson.)

 

Maybe it would help if I asked a question: Are you running a Champions Universe sort of thing where the canonical power builds cause problems, or is this more an abject and ravening hatred of all things kludge?

 

Oh, and regarding the original topic: I think Damage Reduction falls into a lot of the same area. If it's not right for your game, say no. If it's messing up your game, talk to the player and find a fix. Also, rather than buy limited Body, Stun, etcetera, why not buy Armor with a Limitation like "Only up to X% of the damage"? Just a thought.

 

Arsenal

 

I also feel that we should move toward a more permissive style of Hero... but this needs to be done within boundaries.

 

Core Hero Mechanics do certain things very well (use a base human template to build enhanced but basically human characters that can interact with each other in a scalable way)... and other things (Alter Reality, vehicles, inanimate stuff in general) very poorly. The first step toward being more permissive is to recognize that some things are OUTSIDE the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... so they are add-ons, functionality that works alongside Core Hero Mechanics... but have their own builds and structures.

 

Once we recognize this... become comfortable with this... then you can start to build elegant designs that are "outside the box" of the Core Mechanics... but can be included in the Hero System as a whole. Much of this would be arbitrary builds that test... not against the core mechanics... but against certain genres and power levels of campaigns.

 

Say... create a power called "Alter Reality" and assign X as the cost... then define what it does. X might be just the right cost for such a power when most character have 350 - 400 points to spend... but this does NOT work when they have 1000 points to spend. (An issue with all fixed cost powers.) The point being, that such an Alter Reality power might "work" the same way that 40 point Desolidification "worked" back in the day of 200-250 points supers. Once we moved on to higher point levels and twenty years of maturing role playing... suddenly 40 point Desol has all kinds of issues and cracks that make it unworkable in many games.

 

The simple fact is that there is no universal, infinitely compatible way to build some effects and powers. Something equally balanced in function and cost and scalable to every possible game. That is just a pipe dream for many powers that are beyond attack, defense or movement. We just need to accept that... then look for more elegant builds that work outside of the core mechanics... but do what we want for the games we want to play.

 

Alter Reality might be one. It might be an entire suite of powers (like Instant Change/Transform/Adjustment powers/etc.) that just work in a different way than the Core Mechanics... yet still consistent within themselves... and supportive of the Core Mechnics. There are numerous ways this could be done... all of which require thought and development and play testing... etc.

 

Just saying that, where we need to be flexible is not just in allowing more builds... but allowing different ways of building things... different construct concepts that may not appear like Hero at first... but could become part of it over time.

[Mentor]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

While I understand Sean's concerns, I feel, and the other posts seem to confirm, that Damage Reduction is a completely concept dependent power, more so than many others. Forgive me if I sound like I am repeating fundamentals, but, here it goes. The biggest problem with players unbalancing a game by using DR improperly is usually because the GM didn't say NO.

 

The only Damage Reduction in our campaign PC team is possessed by our energy projector, Thunderbird. He has 25% Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant. It means that he can stand up to almost any energy attacks, but he deliberately focused his PC so that flat footed on the ground, he is much more vulnerable. Granted we have very loose attack and defense caps for certain types of PCs, but the concept trumps numerical values.

 

In other words, the play of the character and the appropriateness to the campaign are more important than the mathematical values of the defense.

[Blackberry]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

The idea that "in an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities" is a fallacy' date=' and thus the thinking that somewhere there is a dimension that matches the exact expectation I have for an altered state or reality is flawed, and the idea that to "alter" reality one instead just travels to a dimension where that state of reality is in existance is broken.[/quote']

 

I can think of a whole lot of things that happen in comic books that are impossible or ridiculous in real life. Why is this the one ridiculous thing you pick that absolutely must not be allowed? A man "becoming fire" makes a lot more sense somehow than hopping into an alternate parallel dimension?

 

If EDM allows one to "alter" reality by traveling to a dimension where what you want is possible then you don't need any other Power -- if you want to fly you EDM to a dimension where that is possible. If you want to kill someone you EDM to a dimension where they are dead -- or never even existed. If you wan't to solve a problem you EDM to a dimension where it is solved.

 

It completely destroys the fabric of a roleplaying game. It's a needless hack, and a game breaking one. IMO people that have fallen into the habit of using it to proxy for powerful and elaborate Powers other than travelling between time and dimensions (i.e., it's standard use), are being both intellectually lazy in not finding a correct way to do the effect on the one hand, and self-deluding on the other in thinking that they are doing anything other than just handwaving something away.

 

I'm currently playing a character whose powers are based around exactly this -- hopping into alternate timelines where things are just slightly different.

So far it's been great. Without the limits that my character has, sure, it would get ridiculous, but without those limits,

her powers could never be even close to fitting in 350 points.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Which the GM could do anyway without EDM ever entering the picture.

 

The difference is that in the scenario cited it can always be revisited with specific in-game mechanics.

 

For some one who doesnt like EDM as change reality, you sure seem intent on advocating it. Sounds like double talk to me.

 

Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that there can't be a reasonable way to approach it. To me, accepting the consequences of whisking some sizable group of people off to a "identical but for one detail" universe is a reasonable way to approach the use of the power, as it indeed does include actual travel.

 

To me, the purpose of these discussions is to explore what is viable and reasonable, what constitutes a useful internal consistency, and so on. Just because I would never do something doesn't mean that I am uninterested in finding a way to make it work. Many of the rules proposals that I find interesting and workable aren't ones I'd ever actually use myself. But for someone who wants to accomplish a particular purpose, including myself, it is good, I believe, to give feedback on how something might work to accomplish that purpose even if that method is not my preferred one.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I also feel that we should move toward a more permissive style of Hero... but this needs to be done within boundaries.

 

Core Hero Mechanics do certain things very well (use a base human template to build enhanced but basically human characters that can interact with each other in a scalable way)... and other things (Alter Reality, vehicles, inanimate stuff in general) very poorly. The first step toward being more permissive is to recognize that some things are OUTSIDE the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... so they are add-ons, functionality that works alongside Core Hero Mechanics... but have their own builds and structures.

 

Once we recognize this... become comfortable with this... then you can start to build elegant designs that are "outside the box" of the Core Mechanics... but can be included in the Hero System as a whole. Much of this would be arbitrary builds that test... not against the core mechanics... but against certain genres and power levels of campaigns.

 

Say... create a power called "Alter Reality" and assign X as the cost... then define what it does. X might be just the right cost for such a power when most character have 350 - 400 points to spend... but this does NOT work when they have 1000 points to spend. (An issue with all fixed cost powers.) The point being, that such an Alter Reality power might "work" the same way that 40 point Desolidification "worked" back in the day of 200-250 points supers. Once we moved on to higher point levels and twenty years of maturing role playing... suddenly 40 point Desol has all kinds of issues and cracks that make it unworkable in many games.

 

The simple fact is that there is no universal, infinitely compatible way to build some effects and powers. Something equally balanced in function and cost and scalable to every possible game. That is just a pipe dream for many powers that are beyond attack, defense or movement. We just need to accept that... then look for more elegant builds that work outside of the core mechanics... but do what we want for the games we want to play.

 

Alter Reality might be one. It might be an entire suite of powers (like Instant Change/Transform/Adjustment powers/etc.) that just work in a different way than the Core Mechanics... yet still consistent within themselves... and supportive of the Core Mechnics. There are numerous ways this could be done... all of which require thought and development and play testing... etc.

 

Just saying that, where we need to be flexible is not just in allowing more builds... but allowing different ways of building things... different construct concepts that may not appear like Hero at first... but could become part of it over time.

Excellent post.

 

I would add that it might be of value for the core system to indicate, clearly, its intended power level use, fessing up as it were. Even though there will be those who disagree as to the boundary, it's useful as a gauge, as a reality check. The catch-all "superhuman" with a point value and an ambiguous "+" by it isn't so clear. Character examples are - understandably - across the board and while they do give insight, many people don't use that material at all so the usage is inconsistent, plus there is a sense (one promoted by the system) that "anything" can be done, an impression which is both reasonable as a statement relative to other systems and good marketing, but leaves a bit to be desired in terms of true system usage.

 

And I would add that many of the game designers themselves were known to run with quite high end games, by the way, whether as a consequence of long-term experience gained or actual design, I don't know - although then again, legend has it that they ran house variants on Hero/Champions that were quite, quite different than the core system!

 

That paragraph is apropos only of my interest in understanding how the view was/is on Desolid and other absolute powers. Personally I'm interested, as I run games that start low but rapidly move high in power levels (by design), and I'm about to experiment with moving towards redesigning the absolute powers to all be non-absolute, although at core "very very useful" levels that correspond to the base point values for the absoltue level.

 

A bit of rambling, pardon...

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Fessing up... absolutely. Best way to put it. Repping you... and stealing it from now on.

 

Hero has to Fess Up. It has to admit "Well... you can't really do ANYTHING you want... there are limits."

 

It has to Fess Up... "Hero doesn't do everything equally well... some stuff is pretty kludgy at best."

 

It has to Fess UP... "Hero functions best within the following parameters... point levels, damage classes, defenses, game scope, type of characters, etc."

 

 

This is exactly what I mean by boundaries. Be clear about what Core Hero Mechanics do well... and then be very clear when you are moving outside of them.

 

 

Fess Up... yes. Just like in life... almost anything is possible. I can build a house with a spoon... but it doesn't mean it will be a very good house, nor will it be an effective, timely and easy build. Just like I can try to buy Alter Reality within the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... but it doesn't mean it will be a very good Alter Reality, nor will it be an effective, timely and easy build.

 

Once we put down the spoon and decide to use different tools, we can build a better house.

 

Hero. There is no spoon.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

The difference is that in the scenario cited it can always be revisited with specific in-game mechanics.

 

 

 

Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that there can't be a reasonable way to approach it. To me, accepting the consequences of whisking some sizable group of people off to a "identical but for one detail" universe is a reasonable way to approach the use of the power, as it indeed does include actual travel.

 

To me, the purpose of these discussions is to explore what is viable and reasonable, what constitutes a useful internal consistency, and so on. Just because I would never do something doesn't mean that I am uninterested in finding a way to make it work. Many of the rules proposals that I find interesting and workable aren't ones I'd ever actually use myself. But for someone who wants to accomplish a particular purpose, including myself, it is good, I believe, to give feedback on how something might work to accomplish that purpose even if that method is not my preferred one.

I should PS and just point out, KS, that I'm not advocating any such approach be enshrined in the rules. This should be left to "GM creativity".

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Fessing up... absolutely. Best way to put it. Repping you... and stealing it from now on.

 

Hero has to Fess Up. It has to admit "Well... you can't really do ANYTHING you want... there are limits."

 

It has to Fess Up... "Hero doesn't do everything equally well... some stuff is pretty kludgy at best."

 

It has to Fess UP... "Hero functions best within the following parameters... point levels, damage classes, defenses, game scope, type of characters, etc."

 

 

This is exactly what I mean by boundaries. Be clear about what Core Hero Mechanics do well... and then be very clear when you are moving outside of them.

 

 

Fess Up... yes. Just like in life... almost anything is possible. I can build a house with a spoon... but it doesn't mean it will be a very good house, nor will it be an effective, timely and easy build. Just like I can try to buy Alter Reality within the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... but it doesn't mean it will be a very good Alter Reality, nor will it be an effective, timely and easy build.

 

Once we put down the spoon and decide to use different tools, we can build a better house.

 

Hero. There is no spoon.

Now I wanna see a house built with a spoon!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I would like to say up front, I don't like EDM as Alter Reality or Desolidification as Immunity (especially not without purchasing "Affects Physical World" on relevant abilities). Heck, there's an awful lot of power builds in the source material that I consider clumsy or ill-conceived. However...

 

I feel that the Hero system needs to move toward greater permissiveness rather than restriction. I would rather the system gave me the tools to build literally anything and that the GMs would have to pay attention to what their players bring forth and veto ideas that don't fit in their games. There's a difference between a legitimate character build and a good character. Just because Hero publishes a power construction doesn't mean the GM has to allow it or use it. I don't consider any power construction to be canon outside of FrED. (And it kills me that Instant Change, Regen, and others suffer for my considering those canon!) Maybe that's just splitting hairs, but the folks writing the material tend to build most of their powers with a specific power level or style of game in mind and it behooves us to recognize that. I mean, EDM basically states that it requires a lot of GM involvement - I can't imagine running a game where I said "Oh, EDM? Yeah, do whatever you like."

 

Part of what I'm getting at is that I don't, for my part, disagree with you. However, I know there are changes wrought in FrED that I dislike that I suspect are the result of more vocal parties making their opinions known. I would rather see the system allow something and call upon the GM to exercise their wisdom than see another castrated power show up in the next edition. (Woe are those who did not abuse Aid!) So if the kludge gamers want to make wishes on their EDMs, they can go do it in someone else's game. Hell, anyone who wants to Alter Reality is barking up the wrong GMly tree coming to me - unless that's the game I'm pitching at the moment. (I already had that happen once - I learned my lesson.)

 

Maybe it would help if I asked a question: Are you running a Champions Universe sort of thing where the canonical power builds cause problems, or is this more an abject and ravening hatred of all things kludge?

 

Oh, and regarding the original topic: I think Damage Reduction falls into a lot of the same area. If it's not right for your game, say no. If it's messing up your game, talk to the player and find a fix. Also, rather than buy limited Body, Stun, etcetera, why not buy Armor with a Limitation like "Only up to X% of the damage"? Just a thought.

Well said, on all accounts!

 

BTW, I'm somewhat glad that Regeneration suffers from this judgement. To me, Healing is an Adjustment Power that just happens to not be inherently Cumulative like the others. Thus, any cumulative Healing including Regeneration can and must apply the Cumulative Advantage (I also now require Regeneration to take Continuous or a Trigger, as appropriate).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Core Hero Mechanics do certain things very well (use a base human template to build enhanced but basically human characters that can interact with each other in a scalable way)... and other things (Alter Reality, vehicles, inanimate stuff in general) very poorly. The first step toward being more permissive is to recognize that some things are OUTSIDE the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... so they are add-ons, functionality that works alongside Core Hero Mechanics... but have their own builds and structures.

 

Once we recognize this... become comfortable with this... then you can start to build elegant designs that are "outside the box" of the Core Mechanics... but can be included in the Hero System as a whole. Much of this would be arbitrary builds that test... not against the core mechanics... but against certain genres and power levels of campaigns.

 

...

 

The simple fact is that there is no universal, infinitely compatible way to build some effects and powers. Something equally balanced in function and cost and scalable to every possible game. That is just a pipe dream for many powers that are beyond attack, defense or movement. We just need to accept that... then look for more elegant builds that work outside of the core mechanics... but do what we want for the games we want to play.

 

Alter Reality might be one. It might be an entire suite of powers (like Instant Change/Transform/Adjustment powers/etc.) that just work in a different way than the Core Mechanics... yet still consistent within themselves... and supportive of the Core Mechnics. There are numerous ways this could be done... all of which require thought and development and play testing... etc.

 

Just saying that, where we need to be flexible is not just in allowing more builds... but allowing different ways of building things... different construct concepts that may not appear like Hero at first... but could become part of it over time.

This may be true in part. I will admit that there are effects that cannot be built very simply and easily with the current ruleset (I don't agree with you about the scope of builds that fit into this category--e.g. I think vehicles and inanimate objects work just fine--but that is a different discussion). However, I still think it is useful to build them as closely as possible using the existing ruleset (and I think with some work and consideration it can even be done well most of the time even if it's not simple and easy), possibly with minor extrapolations that do go along the lines of the existing mechanics.

 

I think I am a bigger proponant of making the rules more consistent than you imply here. Like: although the mechanics of such Powers are not all alike, I am a little disappointed about the partial division of sense-affecting Powers and Adders into Targeting/Non-Targeting; some Powers make the distinction and some Powers/Adders/etc. (like the opaque Adders for Force Wall and Entangle) do not. That the mechanics of Powers such as Change Environment, Flash, Invisibility, and Entangle are all very different does not mean that they cannot be built with a consistent basis. Identifying and fixing areas of inconsistency such as this could allow more or all of the system--both standard and custom--to fit within what you are calling the, "Core Mechanics."

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Okay... this is the way I see it:

 

All of reality (or existence) is basically the ultimate result of random potentiality, right? Depending on the cosmology of your campaign, the concept of alternate realities could be less "this is another place to explore", and more "this is the same place, only differing in resultant potentiality".

 

That being the case, you could ask yourself, "Self... if I give my character XDM to alternate realities... what exactly does that mean?"

 

The answer would be, "Well, Self... what it means is your character has the ability to alter the ultimate resultant potentiality of the entire Universe around him. Huh... wierd. Maybe I aught to raise the active point cost of that Power."

How interesting, Mister E! I never quite looked at Extra-Dimensional Movement in relation to Alternate Realities like that, before. I'd rep you, but I can't. You know how it is.

 

Yes... I know how it is. Life's a bummer like that sometime.

No kidding.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

How interesting, Mister E! I never quite looked at Extra-Dimensional Movement in relation to Alternate Realities like that, before. I'd rep you, but I can't. You know how it is.

 

No kidding.

 

 

damn, must spread rep around before giving it to Mister E again =P

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

We are definitely in the realm of philosophy here. Not a bad place to be.

 

Some nice points on all seven sides of the argument.

 

On EDM I think one concern is that I see it as a very lazy fix and, incidentally, incredibly rude to the other players, who will doubtless not be ending the session playing the same characters they started with, but their alter egos. I have no problem if the character's concept is that she just keeps running away from the problem, and it is a solo game: as has been pointed out it is a movement power. Equally I'd have no problem, if you need a lump of kryptonite, to EDMing to somewhere that has it , finding some and bringing it back. I would have a problem with a lump of kryptonite just appearing in your hand becasue you altered reality so that it was there.

 

Ever read Nine Princes In Amber by the sadly missed Roger Zelazny? That's how EDM should be, IMO.

 

Thought just occurred to me: Drifter EDMs to a reality where his team mate Kroginator, avoided the fatal energy blast. In this new reality, Kroginator is still alive. So, of course, are the rest of the team's alternate reality versions, including Drifter's, so now there's two of them....

 

EDM as an altering reality power has this problem too: it is basically a fixed cost power. Altering the room and the world are as easy..

 

Moreover there is no method of pitting one reality warp power against another. Drifter and his nemesis Retfird use their reality warp power to defeat each other: from each one's POV the other just disappears...

 

My biggest problem with EDm though is NOT that it is a kludge. It is how the system advocated doing it. That, Ladles and Jelyspoons, is scary...almost as if we've slipped into the Twilight Zone....

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

We are definitely in the realm of philosophy here. Not a bad place to be.

 

Some nice points on all seven sides of the argument.

 

On EDM I think one concern is that I see it as a very lazy fix and, incidentally, incredibly rude to the other players, who will doubtless not be ending the session playing the same characters they started with, but their alter egos.

The 'fact' that from one instant to the next, it is impossible to not end up playing the part of an alter ego, is an inevitable reality, according to many philosophies and sciences.

 

I have no problem if the character's concept is that she just keeps running away from the problem' date=' and it is a solo game: as has been pointed out it is a movement power. [/quote'] Ah... but a movement of dimensions other than space. There is a big difference.

 

Equally I'd have no problem' date=' if you need a lump of kryptonite, to EDMing to somewhere that has it , finding some and bringing it back. I would have a problem with a lump of kryptonite just appearing in your hand becasue you altered reality so that it was there.[/quote']Yes... this is a little out of control. A better solution would be to hit Superman with an XDM/Usable As An Attack... and just send him to an Alternate Reality composed entirely out of Kryptonite.

 

Ever read Nine Princes In Amber by the sadly missed Roger Zelazny? That's how EDM should be' date=' IMO.[/quote'] No... I haven't read these... but a bunch of my friends have, and have even played the game. One of my buddies has toyed with the idea of running an Amber HERO game.

 

Thought just occurred to me: Drifter EDMs to a reality where his team mate Kroginator' date=' avoided the fatal energy blast. In this new reality, Kroginator is still alive. So, of course, are the rest of the team's alternate reality versions, including Drifter's, so now there's two of them....[/quote'] Yeah... XDM could be used as SXF for a lot of Powers. But I don't think it should be allowed to actually trump other Powersm such as Duplication, of course. Really, I'd just leave it for things like genie wishes and space-gods...

 

EDM as an altering reality power has this problem too: it is basically a fixed cost power. Altering the room and the world are as easy...

Yep. It's about as broken as Cosmic VPP's. Hm... I haven't done the math... exactly how big of a Cosmic VPP could you buy with the points spent on a Reality Shifting XDM Power?

 

Moreover there is no method of pitting one reality warp power against another. Drifter and his nemesis Retfird use their reality warp power to defeat each other: from each one's POV the other just disappears...

This is fascinating. I could totally see this happening. This would very much have to be in a campaign with a Relative Reality cosmology.

 

My biggest problem with EDm though is NOT that it is a kludge. It is how the system advocated doing it. That' date=' Ladles and Jelyspoons, is scary...almost as if we've slipped into the Twilight Zone....[/quote']It would be nice if Steve Long discussed this, and other things. Maybe we should ask Zornwil to corner him with a list of demands, at GENCON.

 

Of course, XDM is a 'Stop-Sign' Power...

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

 

damn, must spread rep around before giving it to Mister E again =P

I got him, I repped him when I saw that.