Damage Reduction

[dstarfire]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

back to the original topic (in case you missed it, it's "dr can be built as stat multipliers, so should be removed as redundant)...

 

I'm generally opposed to removing any power/skill/talent/characteristic simply because it can be built using another one. This mentality leads eventually to everything being a (insert the name of your favorite power here) with various special effects.

 

Also, it leads to some VERY messy, complex and expensive powers.

 

Finally, it makes the hero system even more bland, flavorless and uninspiring than it already is (an unfortunate side effect of trying to make it a universal system).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

The 5th edition rulebook suggests that this point can just be waved.

 

So bascially the rules say you have to break the rules to make it reasonably priced. That a excellent marker of the quality of the idea right there.

 

Hate to agree with Fox1, but when he's right, he's right.

 

If you are going to break the rules to make a clunky construction... how about instead, break the rules to make an ELEGANT construction.

 

Again... the Hero System as a whole is more than the core mechanics... it is also the Game Rules that break the core mechanics, in order to make a streamlined or elegant functionality the core mechanics can't handle (or can't handle well.)

 

Damage Reduction is pretty elegant. If you want to allow some kind of "Immunity" power (which I wouldn't use, but hey...) then why not create one that is clean and simple... one probably based on a SFX chart or some such, with a couple suggested costs, based on campaign frequency.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

This mentality leads eventually to everything being a (insert the name of your favorite power here) with various special effects.

Heh. EDM: to universe where what you want to have happen, does. That oughta bring the page count for 6th ed waaaaaaay down...

 

Ack.

[Agent X]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Agreed. We can add your rant to my rants on the subject as well. Listen up kludgemonkeys; DESOLID is not Immunity' date=' and EDM is not Alter Reality![/quote']

 

I could go for Immunity Powers, Alter Reality, Old-School Regeneration w/New School adders, Old-School Instant Change, and Old-School Damage Shield in the next edition.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I'll just state that DR is not necessarily the same as multipliers to Body, Stun, and Con. There is Penetrating for one thing. There may also be differences depending how you play damage from Suscetibilities, Vulnerabilities, Side Effects, etc. Remember also that DR can be Dispelled.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Plus, DR has one amazingly useful benefit that no amount of STUN and CON can give: doubled recovery intervals. -10 vs -20. -20 vs -40.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Re: the proportional benefits of DR. I don't have a problem with this at all. It's true that someone with higher STUN/BODY/CON will get more benefit from DR than someone with lower STUN/BODY/CON. But that can be said about most powers and characteristics. I was just thinking this about SPD. Someone with a 15 DC attack and 30" of movement gets a lot more out of an extra point of SPD than someone with 8 DC attacks and 10" of movement. Someone with a 10 OCV gets more out of an extra DC of attack than someone with a 7 OCV. etc. If we want to get rid of all these possible discrepancies, we'd have to scrap the entire system. And BTW, I don't think there is *any* system published that doesn't have this problem in it somewhere. X ability will always be more useful to character A than to character B, even though they have the same access to it/pay the same cost to buy it.

 

And FWIW, here is my house rule about DR, for those of you looking for better Immunity powers:

 

Amount

of

DamRed......Cost

1/4 (25%) - 10*

1/2 (50%) - 20*

2/3 (67%) - 30

3/4 (75%) - 40*

5/6 (83%) - 50 **

9/10 (90%) - 60 **

19/20 (95%) - 70 **

Immune (100%) - 80 **

 

The above prices are for non-resistant Damage Reduction. Resistant costs 50% more, i.e., 15, 30, 45, 60, ...

 

* These are exactly as they are in the rules

** These big ones, need an extra big stop sign on them and are intended to be restricted in some way: mega-NPC's only, or with a "Only vs X" or "Not vs Y" type limitation.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I would have to throw in as well that EDM as Affects Reality and Desol as Immunity are poor constructions for most cases and therefore ill-advised as standard solutions.

 

DR is inconsistent but pretty useful. I think the game can function well without it but is probably poorer if it is excised.

 

Here's the real problem, I believe, with a lot of this stuff...the rules are there to address "most" genra, some sort of critical mass of genra so that they are most useful in most games. Among these many types of games are LOTS of high-powered games, and not just supers but also high-powered sci-fi and fantasy (especially fantasy). If it were only supers that necessitated DR, then it'd be easy to declare it off-limits for the core system, and I'd agree. But it isn't that simple. (By the way, in this spirit, it seems to me that Instant Change as we used to know it makes the most sense as a Talent in the Champions book probably only)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Agreed. We can add your rant to my rants on the subject as well. Listen up kludgemonkeys; DESOLID is not Immunity' date=' and EDM is not Alter Reality![/quote']

 

Ah, EDM altering reality. The principle is that you move to a dimension where what you want happened. Fine, no problem with that. The character, of course, is leaving the other PCs behind, and their NPCs and, well, everything (unless they buy an enormously expensive UAA version and bring eveything with them...which is kinda pointless...). They might have others there, even identical ones, but they are NOT the same ones.

 

OK, so they go to a new dimension.

 

The way I'd run this is I'd send the player to another dimension, well, another room, and we'd just get on with it in this 'reality' without him: he's gone. Obviously he can continue playing with his imaginary friends there or he can activate that power of his and come on back and play with us, in the reality he wasn't happy with in the first place.

 

I love GMing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

OK, so they go to a new dimension.

 

The way I'd run this is I'd send the player to another dimension, well, another room, and we'd just get on with it in this 'reality' without him: he's gone. Obviously he can continue playing with his imaginary friends there or he can activate that power of his and come on back and play with us, in the reality he wasn't happy with in the first place.

 

The way I would run this falls into one of two categories:

 

(a) If I'm OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, and the EDM approach is as good a kludge as we can come up with, then he buys EDM and we accept that he is, in fact, altering his reality rather than moving to a different one.

 

( If I'm not OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, then we talk about that up front, and he ends up spending his points elsewhere, or maybe picking a new character and saving this one for another game where he can have that ability.

 

Now, I might be happier with an alternative structure for this "Alter Reality" power, but for all the comments that EDM isn't the way to do this, no one's throwing out a far more elegant and appropriate means for constructing this ability.

[OddHat]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Now, I might be happier with an alternative structure for this "Alter Reality" power, but for all the comments that EDM isn't the way to do this, no one's throwing out a far more elegant and appropriate means for constructing this ability.

 

It's not at all elegant, but I have run "reality altering" Supers with a cosmic VPP and permission to use Summon in the VPP. It's the closest in game terms we can get to reality alteration without EDM, but it's expensive and requires a lot of GM involvement.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

The way I would run this falls into one of two categories:

 

(a) If I'm OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, and the EDM approach is as good a kludge as we can come up with, then he buys EDM and we accept that he is, in fact, altering his reality rather than moving to a different one.

 

( If I'm not OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, then we talk about that up front, and he ends up spending his points elsewhere, or maybe picking a new character and saving this one for another game where he can have that ability.

 

Now, I might be happier with an alternative structure for this "Alter Reality" power, but for all the comments that EDM isn't the way to do this, no one's throwing out a far more elegant and appropriate means for constructing this ability.

I think "altering reality" is too broad a concept. I'd have to hear the what/why of the alteration. I think Oddhat's approach will work in some cases, EDM in others, and Transform, possibly Megascaled, in still others.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Perhaps to make it more "elegant" and fit in better with other existing HERO mechanics, it should be purchased as an Advantage on a character's Body and Stun instead of as a seperate Power? That way people who have more Bod/Stun and would get more use out of it pay more as a result.

[OddHat]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I think "altering reality" is too broad a concept. I'd have to hear the what/why of the alteration. I think Oddhat's approach will work in some cases' date=' EDM in others, and Transform, possibly Megascaled, in still others.[/quote']

 

Well, the nice thing about the VPP approach is that it contains any Transform options the GM wishes to permit.

 

I never liked the EDM option; I'd also make it clear to a player trying to use it that his character would be removing himself from the campaign.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

The way I would run this falls into one of two categories:

 

(a) If I'm OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, and the EDM approach is as good a kludge as we can come up with, then he buys EDM and we accept that he is, in fact, altering his reality rather than moving to a different one.

 

( If I'm not OK with the character having the ability to alter reality, then we talk about that up front, and he ends up spending his points elsewhere, or maybe picking a new character and saving this one for another game where he can have that ability.

 

Now, I might be happier with an alternative structure for this "Alter Reality" power, but for all the comments that EDM isn't the way to do this, no one's throwing out a far more elegant and appropriate means for constructing this ability.

 

You are far too sensible. Make them sit in another room, or at least in the corner. Make them wear a little pointed hat with 'D' on: tell them it stands for 'Dimension Traveller'. They'll never know.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I think "altering reality" is too broad a concept. I'd have to hear the what/why of the alteration. I think Oddhat's approach will work in some cases' date=' EDM in others, and Transform, possibly Megascaled, in still others.[/quote']

I'm okay with EDM being used to affect reality--as long as it is bought big enough with the right Advantages to affect everyone (everyone!). For example, you could move everyone in the world (or only those you want to get rid of/keep around) to a new dimension where your new axioms apply (AoE, Selective, hugely MegaScaled, appropriate variety of dimensions for the level of changes you want). This is how I built godly powers for deities in my (D&Desque) fantasy game (well, part of their powers).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

EDM is a travel Power. The idea that EDM, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more realities, allows one to ALTER reality is the same is thinking that FLIGHT, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more points in space, allows one to ALTER space.

 

At its root however, my point about EDM is that using it to Alter Reality is really just a GMs Fiat. So consider:

 

END RESULT = X

 

GMs FIAT = X

GMs FIAT + EDM = X

 

So, obviously, EDM is not needed to accomplish X. It adds nothing to the equation. A GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat. Window dressing it with EDM is completely unnecessary.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

EDM is a travel Power. The idea that EDM, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more realities, allows one to ALTER reality is the same is thinking that FLIGHT, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more points in space, allows one to ALTER space.

 

At its root however, my point about EDM is that using it to Alter Reality is really just a GMs Fiat. So consider:

 

END RESULT = X

 

GMs FIAT = X

GMs FIAT + EDM = X

 

So, obviously, EDM is not needed to accomplish X. It adds nothing to the equation. A GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat. Window dressing it with EDM is completely unnecessary.

 

Repped... and I'd rep again if I could.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

EDM is a travel Power. The idea that EDM, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more realities, allows one to ALTER reality is the same is thinking that FLIGHT, which is intended to allow a person to move between two or more points in space, allows one to ALTER space.

 

At its root however, my point about EDM is that using it to Alter Reality is really just a GMs Fiat. So consider:

 

END RESULT = X

 

GMs FIAT = X

GMs FIAT + EDM = X

 

So, obviously, EDM is not needed to accomplish X. It adds nothing to the equation. A GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat is a GMs Fiat. Window dressing it with EDM is completely unnecessary.

Eh. Sometimes it is nice to build things as a thinking aid. Even if I might on the fly just say, "something happens," I'll build it half the time afterwards or when planning for it. It helps in planning, brainstorming subsidiary effects and interactions, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Eh. Sometimes it is nice to build things as a thinking aid. Even if I might on the fly just say' date=' "something happens," I'll build it half the time afterwards or when planning for it. It helps in planning, brainstorming subsidiary effects and interactions, etc.[/quote']

 

But why build it with EDM? If youre going to base altering reality on a Movement Power you might as well build it with Flight or Tunneling at that point. It's completely illogical.

 

The idea that "in an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities" is a fallacy, and thus the thinking that somewhere there is a dimension that matches the exact expectation I have for an altered state or reality is flawed, and the idea that to "alter" reality one instead just travels to a dimension where that state of reality is in existance is broken.

 

Even if you put all that aside, you are still left with the simple fact that if EDM is used in this fashion, then it is the only necessary Power in the game, and further that with it in existance there is no game. If EDM allows one to "alter" reality by traveling to a dimension where what you want is possible then you don't need any other Power -- if you want to fly you EDM to a dimension where that is possible. If you want to kill someone you EDM to a dimension where they are dead -- or never even existed. If you wan't to solve a problem you EDM to a dimension where it is solved.

 

It completely destroys the fabric of a roleplaying game. It's a needless hack, and a game breaking one. IMO people that have fallen into the habit of using it to proxy for powerful and elaborate Powers other than travelling between time and dimensions (i.e., it's standard use), are being both intellectually lazy in not finding a correct way to do the effect on the one hand, and self-deluding on the other in thinking that they are doing anything other than just handwaving something away.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

But why build it with EDM? If youre going to base altering reality on a Movement Power you might as well build it with Flight or Tunneling at that point. It's completely illogical.

 

The idea that "in an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities" is a fallacy, and thus the thinking that somewhere there is a dimension that matches the exact expectation I have for an altered state or reality is flawed, and the idea that to "alter" reality one instead just travels to a dimension where that state of reality is in existance is broken.

 

Even if you put all that aside, you are still left with the simple fact that if EDM is used in this fashion, then it is the only necessary Power in the game, and further that with it in existance there is no game. If EDM allows one to "alter" reality by traveling to a dimension where what you want is possible then you don't need any other Power -- if you want to fly you EDM to a dimension where that is possible. If you want to kill someone you EDM to a dimension where they are dead -- or never even existed. If you wan't to solve a problem you EDM to a dimension where it is solved.

 

It completely destroys the fabric of a roleplaying game. It's a needless hack, and a game breaking one. IMO people that have fallen into the habit of using it to proxy for powerful and elaborate Powers other than travelling between time and dimensions (i.e., it's standard use), are being both intellectually lazy in not finding a correct way to do the effect on the one hand, and self-deluding on the other in thinking that they are doing anything other than just handwaving something away.

For the most part, I would agree. As I said, I think it is pretty worthless when used in this fashion unless it is used on such a massively huge scale that it becomes ridiculous (but that level of ridiculousness can be useful--as I said, I modeled deities using this strategy in part, and I think it worked well; that doesn't mean there weren't other contributers, like Transform obviously).

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Eh. Sometimes it is nice to build things as a thinking aid. Even if I might on the fly just say' date=' "something happens," I'll build it half the time afterwards or when planning for it. It helps in planning, brainstorming subsidiary effects and interactions, etc.[/quote']

But what you cited I wouldn't call fiat, so much, I'd say that's truly moving everyone over.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

But why build it with EDM? If youre going to base altering reality on a Movement Power you might as well build it with Flight or Tunneling at that point. It's completely illogical.

 

The idea that "in an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities" is a fallacy, and thus the thinking that somewhere there is a dimension that matches the exact expectation I have for an altered state or reality is flawed, and the idea that to "alter" reality one instead just travels to a dimension where that state of reality is in existance is broken.

 

Even if you put all that aside, you are still left with the simple fact that if EDM is used in this fashion, then it is the only necessary Power in the game, and further that with it in existance there is no game. If EDM allows one to "alter" reality by traveling to a dimension where what you want is possible then you don't need any other Power -- if you want to fly you EDM to a dimension where that is possible. If you want to kill someone you EDM to a dimension where they are dead -- or never even existed. If you wan't to solve a problem you EDM to a dimension where it is solved.

 

It completely destroys the fabric of a roleplaying game. It's a needless hack, and a game breaking one. IMO people that have fallen into the habit of using it to proxy for powerful and elaborate Powers other than travelling between time and dimensions (i.e., it's standard use), are being both intellectually lazy in not finding a correct way to do the effect on the one hand, and self-deluding on the other in thinking that they are doing anything other than just handwaving something away.

Although in Prestidigitator's implied case, it could have fascinating consequences. A desperate PC moves 6 people to the alternate dimension in which the only difference is that the PC's best friend's mother (let's call her Sybil) never died in that combat gone wrong. Everything seems happy - after all, they appeared just at the right time and that nasty business never happened while everything else is the same,. and this dimension's hero team has conveniently been displaced to their own prior dimension...

 

...except Dr. Strange Fate really has a problem as he gazes into his Eye of Omagodofhybridization and says, "Ah-ha! Things are not as they should be! These heroes are not exactly the same people, I knew that Witchcraft seemed different just SOMEHOW! Now I must find where the other team is...oh my goodness, their dimension is going down the tubes, a fate they never deserved, as Sybil was not there to be the person who helped that dimension due to this great Cosmic Imbalance..."

 

And so Dr. Strange Fate confronts the team, and either in the end 2 of the same team end up running around this nearly-identical dimension or there's some other interesting roleplaying.

 

That is, if in fact as Prestidigitator indicates, there is the real SFX basis of pulling a "significant" group through the EDM as well.

 

Then again, the GM may never get around to picking up this particular thread. That's okay, too.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Although in Prestidigitator's implied case, it could have fascinating consequences. A desperate PC moves 6 people to the alternate dimension in which the only difference is that the PC's best friend's mother (let's call her Sybil) never died in that combat gone wrong. Everything seems happy - after all, they appeared just at the right time and that nasty business never happened while everything else is the same,. and this dimension's hero team has conveniently been displaced to their own prior dimension...

 

...except Dr. Strange Fate really has a problem as he gazes into his Eye of Omagodofhybridization and says, "Ah-ha! Things are not as they should be! These heroes are not exactly the same people, I knew that Witchcraft seemed different just SOMEHOW! Now I must find where the other team is...oh my goodness, their dimension is going down the tubes, a fate they never deserved, as Sybil was not there to be the person who helped that dimension due to this great Cosmic Imbalance..."

 

And so Dr. Strange Fate confronts the team, and either in the end 2 of the same team end up running around this nearly-identical dimension or there's some other interesting roleplaying.

 

That is, if in fact as Prestidigitator indicates, there is the real SFX basis of pulling a "significant" group through the EDM as well.

 

Then again, the GM may never get around to picking up this particular thread. That's okay, too.

 

 

Which talks completely in a circle around the actual point, which is that EDM is a Movement Power and not an Alter Reality Power.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Here is a basic concept, which I will call "The Ultimate Solution".

 

If an ability or object provides the means to get out of practically every conceivable problem that it can get you in to, then it is an "ultimate solution".

 

For example, if I have a disintegration power then the idea of people coming to arrest me if I kill people with it indiscriminantly is not a credible check unless the people coming after me are immune to disintegration. If nothing is, then it is in some ways an Ultimate Solution. The problems inherent in using it to destroy things are basically surmountable by using the ability more. However, that is a fragile sort of Ultimate Solution inasmuch not everything can be solved by violence. I mean, its really bad, but at leasts its a narrowly applicable bad.

 

On the other hand, the ability to move around between dimensions that are made to order to suit my criteria on demand is so much more effective. Any conceivable repercussions of using this ability are pretty easily surmounted by using the ability more. It is its own reward. And it's not predicated on simple violence; it's much more broad; practically unfettered by any sort of logical check. If it is possible at all, then the only things that are not possible are arbitrarily so.

 

To even limit such an ability the GM must state what it can and can't do; in effect the GM is defining new rules applicable to their own game, making arbitrary decisions about what is and is not possible regardless of anything in the rulebook. It is, in effect, a GM Fiat. A decree from on high, as it were.

 

Here's my position: The only person in a HERO's gaming group that has the ability to "alter reality" in the game is the GM, whether directly or by allowing players to do it. Whenever a GM allows it to be done he is in effect issuing a GM's Fiat. Everything else is window dressing.

 

 

EDM does not change reality; nothing about it deals with reality altering; it is an unnecessary kludge for altering reality.