Damage Reduction

[Sean Waters]

I like damage reduction. I use it quite a lot, especially for villains.

 

Odd then that I am about to argue that it should be dropped from the system..

 

DR is, to my mind, NOT a defence, whatever the book might think. It is a multiplier to your stun, body and constitution against certain types of damage. 3/4 resistant physical damage reduction in effect multiplies your stun, body and con by 4 against physical damage. Depending on the character build this can have a disporoporionate effect: if yu have a high stun you get more benefit than if you have a low stun.

 

In the interests of balance, should we not be buying limited stun, body and con: only v physical attacks (-1). Possibly you could build it as an advantage to stun/body/con (+1/2 Effectively double the stat v physical damage) - these suggestions are ill thought out, but I'm sure we can come up wiht something...

 

This has the advantage of giving the same utlity to all characters for the same points. The way it is built at present is inherently unbalancing and should not be allowed. Thoughts?

[Fox1]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

This has the advantage of giving the same utlity to all characters for the same points. The way it is built at present is inherently unbalancing and should not be allowed. Thoughts?

 

While I see the appeal of your proposal, I'll have to pass on it.

 

I find that constructing a character with the enhanced CON, BODY, and STUN with the needed limits to be too clumsy. I like the current build with respect to 'normal humans', i.e. a easy way of showing this is just a man with a special ability, not another being with super stats.

 

Perhaps I'd be more inclined towards dropping DR if I thought the current point system was in any fashion balanced. As it is, I see nothing but extra effort for little gain.

 

My suggestion is to control the purchase of DR. If it becomes too cost effective for your game on a specific build- disallow it. There are a large number of potentially troublesome constructions in HERO. They are best dealt with by either controlling character construction or moving to a different game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

While I see the appeal of your proposal, I'll have to pass on it.

 

I find that constructing a character with the enhanced CON, BODY, and STUN with the needed limits to be too clumsy. I like the current build with respect to 'normal humans', i.e. a easy way of showing this is just a man with a special ability, not another being with super stats.

 

Perhaps I'd be more inclined towards dropping DR if I thought the current point system was in any fashion balanced. As it is, I see nothing but extra effort for little gain.

 

My suggestion is to control the purchase of DR. If it becomes too cost effective for your game on a specific build- disallow it. There are a large number of potentially troublesome constructions in HERO. They are best dealt with by either controlling character construction or moving to a different game.

 

OK, well, it's been nice knowing you all, I'm off to try Warhammer or something...no point in trying to polish this game, no siree

[Fox1]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

OK' date=' well, it's been nice knowing you all, I'm off to try Warhammer or something...no point in trying to polish this game, no siree [/quote']

 

You're free to remove DR from your game by house rule. I don't see any need on your part to make the same decision for myself.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

An interesting premise.

 

Damage Reduction is odd in that it is a power with relative benefits. However, its relativity works boths ways.

 

Unlike other defenses DmgRed scales in effectiveness based upon the strength of the incoming attack, however it always lets some damage through. The bigger the attack the more effective it is.

 

But how efficient is it? That depends on the average damage of the campaign and what other defenses it is mixed with.

 

 

A character that has both:

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

 

has spent 60 points on defense, and is still guaranteed to take some damage with every attack if they don't have another form of static defense.

 

Meanwhile a character that spent the same 60 points on:

Armor (20 PD/20 ED)

 

is immune to medium and smaller attacks entirely.

 

 

So assume both have 2 PD/ED from figureds and shoot both of them with 60 points of attack:

Energy Blast 12d6 (vs. ED)

Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (vs. ED)

 

On average DmgRed Guy takes

EB: (42 -2) /2 = 20 STUN and (12-2)/2 = 5 BODY

RKA: 14/2 = 7 BODY and 35/2 = 17 STUN

 

Armor Guy takes

EB: 42 -22 = 20 STUN and 12-22 = 0 BODY

RKA: 14-22 = 0 BODY and 35-22 = 13 STUN

 

So Armor is more efficient vs the equal AP attack.

 

The benefit from Damage Reduction is seen when attacks scale much higher in Active Points. Double the attack to 24d6 and you see this:

 

On average DmgRed Guy takes

EB: (84 -2) /2 = 41 STUN and (24-2)/2 = 11 BODY

RKA: 28/2 = 14 BODY and 70/2 = 35 STUN

 

Armor Guy takes

EB: 84-22 = 62 STUN and 24-22 = 2 BODY

RKA: 28-22 = 6 BODY and 70-22 = 48 STUN

 

Armor is still better at soaking BODY damage, but the DmgRed is better at soaking the STUN as the attacks grow in STR.

 

 

Here's where the pay off comes for DmgRed though; when mixed with a moderate amount of Resistant defense it becomes very good.

 

If you buy 30 points of Armor for DmgRed guy and give Armor guy 30 more points of armor you get:

 

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50%

Armor (10 PD/10 ED)

 

vs

 

Armor (30 PD/30 ED)

 

and vs 18d6 EB or 6d6 KA:

 

DmgRed Guy takes:

EB: (63-12)/2 = 25 STUN and (18-12)/2 = 3 BODY

RKA: (21-10)/2 = 5 BODY and (52-12)/2 = 20 STUN

 

Armor guy takes:

EB: 63-32 = 31 STUN and 18-32 = 0 BODY

RKA: 21-32 = 0 BODY and 52-32 = 20 STUN

 

Still pretty comparable, but as the DC's climb DmgReduction handles it better.

 

Anyway got to run, but another point I dont have time to illustrate is that Damage Reductions big weakness is it doesnt handle a high volume of small attacks as effectively as conventional defenses.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

A good analysis from killer shrike. Of course DR is always effective against NND attacks (and AP attacks), so scores over noral defences there: the comparison is not entirely straightforward, it vey much depends on the game, hence my contention that it is best to think about it as a way of mutlipying certain stats, and the reason I'm suggesting buying limited stats is a more balanced approach to a power of this sort.

 

Like I say I like DR. I think it is more effective for certain characters and I am concerned that as a fixed cost power in higher level games it becomes a must-have - when those DCs start creeping up.

 

In very low point games it is not worth it against straight defences. It works reasonably well in a 250-500 point game as balanced against normal defences. It is good at kerbing the excesses of the Stun lotto. It is a good villain power against coordinated attacks.

 

 

Oh, and, Fox1 I'm not coming over and ripping the pages out of your book: we're just talking, buddy.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

A good analysis from killer shrike. Of course DR is always effective against NND attacks (and AP attacks), so scores over noral defences there: the comparison is not entirely straightforward, it vey much depends on the game, hence my contention that it is best to think about it as a way of mutlipying certain stats, and the reason I'm suggesting buying limited stats is a more balanced approach to a power of this sort.

 

Like I say I like DR. I think it is more effective for certain characters and I am concerned that as a fixed cost power in higher level games it becomes a must-have - when those DCs start creeping up.

 

In very low point games it is not worth it against straight defences. It works reasonably well in a 250-500 point game as balanced against normal defences. It is good at kerbing the excesses of the Stun lotto. It is a good villain power against coordinated attacks.

 

 

Oh, and, Fox1 I'm not coming over and ripping the pages out of your book: we're just talking, buddy.

 

 

I look at it this way, in campaigns dialed up to range where it becomes mathematically unsound not to have Dmg Reduction, the scaling defense it grants is more often than not appropriate. Characters at that power range are supposed to be powerful and difficult to harm.

 

In the vast majority of games DmgReduction's relativeness is not unduly advantaging. I know from first hand experience the pros and cons of the power. It is good, but it has its downside too.

 

Personally I find it an invaluable tool, and it's one of my favorite Powers in the game.

 

Also, buying limited stats is not the same thing as buying damage reduction; stats are flat, damage reduction is a percentage. While you could find an averaging medium, they don't behave in the same fashion mechanically.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I have mixed feelings about Damage Reduction, too. I like it, but somehow, it just doesn't seem to belong in the game.

 

Recently, I wrote up a Character for an up-and-coming Dark Champions campaign, called "The Hood". He's loosely patterned after Marv in Sin City, and "The Maxx", from Image comics... and I wanted him to be the party's brick. To do this, I gave him the Power:

 

Can Take A Punch: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Requires A CON Roll (14- with CON of 25; -1/2), Character Must Be Aware Of Attack (-1/4). Total cost: 17 points.

 

Now, I like how this does what I want it to, and it's taken straight out of Long's book, but I'm not sure about the verisimilitude of a character with this power in a Heroic campaign, and I'm not sure what kind of effect it's going to make in comparison to the other characters... you see, armor in a Heroic campaign, is generally free. You don't pay for it with Character Points, you get it in-game using perks, contacts, or whatever... you can even pull it off of Viper Agents if you want to.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

 

It's like... here the characters are. They all have stats... the stats mean things, and are used to represent attributes of the characters... and then here comes "The Hood". He's got stats too, but on top of that, he's got Damage Reduction. And that pretty much means his stats (CON, BODY, STUN...) are on a different level than the rest of the characters.

 

I'm going to roll with it though, because I think it'll be cool.

 

As far as Damage Reduction goes in general... it has its uses, and there really isn't any other way of simulating accurately what it does, with any other mechanic. Adding more CON, BODY, or STUN would come really close.... but would fail (or at least be much more difficult) to represent the Power I want "The Hood" to have. The alternative of adding DEF, Resistant or otherwise, even with Limitations, doesn't quite do it either... (although, if DR wasn't an option, that's the way I would go).

 

Damage Resistance is broken, but it's a good kind of broken. However, when you get to the point where every Player Character in your game has it... that's a bad kind of broken.

[Old Man]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I often times feel that Damage Reduction is overpriced for what it does.

 

In Killer Shrike's example, if the guy was shot twice with the given attacks he would most likely be dead or bleeding to death.

 

Increasing stats can work but only within campaign limits (if there are any).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I often times feel that Damage Reduction is overpriced for what it does.

 

In Killer Shrike's example, if the guy was shot twice with the given attacks he would most likely be dead or bleeding to death.

 

Increasing stats can work but only within campaign limits (if there are any).

 

Damage Reduction feels overpriced if you are playing a 250-350 point game.

 

DR becomes priced just right at the 400-600 point level.

 

At even higher point levels (assuming this means higher Damage Class levels) Damage Reduction begins to be quite cheap for it's effect.

 

Like all fixed cost powers, DR becomes more efficient and effective with increased points to spend on characters.

 

I also agree that the Power of DR does not fit the core model of Hero... it is not a Mechanic... but a Game Rule that goes a long way toward effectively emulating the "heroic action" in many genres... and in a relatively streamlined way.

 

Just because something is more mechanically pure, doesn't mean it is good for the system, let alone for the eventual Play Experience.

 

I have no problem with parts of the core rule set to be deviations from the mechanics... just that we acknowledge that, acknowledge the positives and negatives... and THEN decide whether it should be part of the larger system.

 

The system as a whole is more than a pure mechanical base. It is also those rules/additions/changes that are made part of the canon, even though they may violate the base mechanics. They do so in order to better effect the eventual game built with Hero.

[pinecone]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

yeah ...put me down as a friend of DR...I just have not seen it be all that troublesome...though I gotta admit I've only seen One 3/4 DR dude as a player char so my experience on the high end is limited. I just don't see it as being better or worse...its just differant.

[OddHat]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Damage Reduction feels overpriced if you are playing a 250-350 point game.

 

DR becomes priced just right at the 400-600 point level.

 

At even higher point levels (assuming this means higher Damage Class levels) Damage Reduction begins to be quite cheap for it's effect.

 

Like all fixed cost powers, DR becomes more efficient and effective with increased points to spend on characters.

 

I also agree that the Power of DR does not fit the core model of Hero... it is not a Mechanic... but a Game Rule that goes a long way toward effectively emulating the "heroic action" in many genres... and in a relatively streamlined way.

 

Just because something is more mechanically pure, doesn't mean it is good for the system, let alone for the eventual Play Experience.

 

I have no problem with parts of the core rule set to be deviations from the mechanics... just that we acknowledge that, acknowledge the positives and negatives... and THEN decide whether it should be part of the larger system.

 

The system as a whole is more than a pure mechanical base. It is also those rules/additions/changes that are made part of the canon, even though they may violate the base mechanics. They do so in order to better effect the eventual game built with Hero.

 

 

Can't rep you again yet.

[Vorsch]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Would you allow a brick with 30rpd and 75%dr

 

personally i might

 

would i allow a brick with 70rpd, probabily not. Even though comics are full of these types of characters.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

If you were building a high velocity vehicle that is designed for ramming enemy vehicles to quickly disable them and take minimum damage, I'd think Damage Reduction would be a much better, and cheaper way to cover that.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I've never liked damage reduction much. The only way I've ever liked it is when it's tied strongly to a condition or a sfx. Stuff like damage reduction to fire or damage reduction to martial maneuvers (RSR analyze style)

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind there being some sort of immunity mechanism (as long as you could only buy one form of it and it was also linked to a limited sfx or condition). It shouldn't be so difficult to make a fire god invulnerable to fire damage....

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Desolidification, Only to Fire Based Attacks (-1), Reduced Endurance, Persistant, Inherent

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Desolidification' date=' Only to Fire Based Attacks (-1), Reduced Endurance, Persistant, Inherent[/quote']

 

You see SS, now you're just deliberately pushing my buttons . I was frankly appalled when I noted that this is now canon. I remain appalled, probably for the wrong reasons. If they are going to create a 'Immune to' power then they should do it, not kludge around like this.

 

Why in the name of seven heavens should someone who is immune to fire be suddenly mune to it (a new word: you saw it here first folks!) as a result of an 'effects desolid' advantage. Tosh, balderdash, extreme sillness IMO.

 

I'm not, in principle, opposed to absolutes, so long as they are very much optional STOP sign rules, and I can understand the rank and file doing it this way as there is no real alternative, but....let's just assume I rant on for another page or two, shall we?

 

Sean

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I'm not, in principle, opposed to absolutes, so long as they are very much optional STOP sign rules, and I can understand the rank and file doing it this way as there is no real alternative, but....let's just assume I rant on for another page or two, shall we?

 

That statement is really cute.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

You see SS, now you're just deliberately pushing my buttons . I was frankly appalled when I noted that this is now canon. I remain appalled, probably for the wrong reasons. If they are going to create a 'Immune to' power then they should do it, not kludge around like this.

 

Why in the name of seven heavens should someone who is immune to fire be suddenly mune to it (a new word: you saw it here first folks!) as a result of an 'effects desolid' advantage. Tosh, balderdash, extreme sillness IMO.

 

I'm not, in principle, opposed to absolutes, so long as they are very much optional STOP sign rules, and I can understand the rank and file doing it this way as there is no real alternative, but....let's just assume I rant on for another page or two, shall we?

 

Sean

Agreed. We can add your rant to my rants on the subject as well. Listen up kludgemonkeys; DESOLID is not Immunity, and EDM is not Alter Reality!

[Fox1]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

You see SS, now you're just deliberately pushing my buttons . I was frankly appalled when I noted that this is now canon. I remain appalled, probably for the wrong reasons. If they are going to create a 'Immune to' power then they should do it, not kludge around like this.

 

I agree, that was a terrible construction. Far too much of this kind of stuff has found its way into HERO.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I like damage reduction. It helps make my PCs feel like they are making a dent in thier enemy without having him go down to easily or not at all.

 

Personally, I like it better than high armour. It makes more sense to me.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Agreed. We can add your rant to my rants on the subject as well. Listen up kludgemonkeys; DESOLID is not Immunity' date=' and EDM is not Alter Reality![/quote']

 

ugh, agreed.

 

I much prefer DR to Desolid for immunity anyday =P Unless you SFX make it make sense (like flash's desolid)

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I'm actually pretty cool with Desolid immunities, and EDM wishes... it's goofy, but what the hell. At some point you have to just accept what you've got, and play the game. And, of course, there's always Affects Desolid... Example:

 

The Human Flamer is Desolid to all fire/heat attacks. Then Hell-Rider comes blazing along on his Chopper-of-the-Damned and torches the Flamer with his Affects Desolid Hellfire RKA, and the Flamer gets toasted.

 

I think it's cool.

 

And for EDM wishes... well... there's probably a better way to do it; but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste my time trying to figure it out.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Desolidification' date=' Only to Fire Based Attacks (-1), Reduced Endurance, Persistant, Inherent[/quote']

 

The problems with this approach are many.

 

First, they can always buy fire attacks that affect desolid.

 

Second, now that you're desolid, you have to buy "affects real world" on all of your stuff.

[Fox1]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Second' date=' now that you're desolid, you have to buy "affects real world" on all of your stuff.[/quote']

 

The 5th edition rulebook suggests that this point can just be waved.

 

So bascially the rules say you have to break the rules to make it reasonably priced. That a excellent marker of the quality of the idea right there.