Damage Reduction

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

(snip)

 

It would be nice if Steve Long discussed this, and other things. Maybe we should ask Zornwil to corner him with a list of demands, at GENCON.

 

I hate to shatter illusions, but I'm not really a giant kill-crazy mutated lizard...

 

PS - I'm really a hot lesbian!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I got him' date=' I repped him when I saw that. [/quote']Thanks... every time you rep me, my own rep goes up a point.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I got him' date=' I repped him when I saw that. [/quote']

 

thanks!

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I hate to shatter illusions, but I'm not really a giant kill-crazy mutated lizard...

 

PS - I'm really a hot lesbian!

You too?!?!?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I suppose one solution to the EDM Crisis is just to say that there are not an infinite number or alternative realities. Reality does not bifurcate half as often as everyone likes to think.

 

You can alter reality so that Megadon isn't attacking you any more, but be warned, you'll be noticing a lot more Vikings all of a sudden....

 

The other approach, the MAD approach, is to use butterflies. Well, you know the effect a butterfly can have on the weather, according to chaos theory? Well, mucking about with causality has an even more pronounced effect: massive butterflies everywhere...no...hang on....

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I suppose one solution to the EDM Crisis is just to say that there are not an infinite number or alternative realities. Reality does not bifurcate half as often as everyone likes to think.

 

You can alter reality so that Megadon isn't attacking you any more, but be warned, you'll be noticing a lot more Vikings all of a sudden....

 

The other approach, the MAD approach, is to use butterflies. Well, you know the effect a butterfly can have on the weather, according to chaos theory? Well, mucking about with causality has an even more pronounced effect: massive butterflies everywhere...no...hang on....

We had a time traveller in my game, and I suggested to him his disad would be a personal mission to "uphold the true timeline," so even if the timeline were mucked about, he'd have to go charging about to put it back as it were. It was a balance mechanism for the game as well as a good disad; the player seemed to enjoy it as well.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I suppose one solution to the EDM Crisis is just to say that there are not an infinite number or alternative realities. Reality does not bifurcate half as often as everyone likes to think.

 

You can alter reality so that Megadon isn't attacking you any more, but be warned, you'll be noticing a lot more Vikings all of a sudden....

 

The other approach, the MAD approach, is to use butterflies. Well, you know the effect a butterfly can have on the weather, according to chaos theory? Well, mucking about with causality has an even more pronounced effect: massive butterflies everywhere...no...hang on....

How would you feel about giving a Reality Shifting XDM Power an Unluck Disad Side-Effect?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

EDM as an altering reality power has this problem too: it is basically a fixed cost power. Altering the room and the world are as easy..

 

Moreover there is no method of pitting one reality warp power against another. Drifter and his nemesis Retfird use their reality warp power to defeat each other: from each one's POV the other just disappears...

Ah, but if you do things as GM like require this particular use of EDM to have RSR, and then add Skill vs. Skill Rolls and some basic guidelines for penalties based on how different your, "alternate reality," is from the current one, things start to look a little better in these areas.

 

My biggest problem with EDm though is NOT that it is a kludge. It is how the system advocated doing it. That, Ladles and Jelyspoons, is scary...almost as if we've slipped into the Twilight Zone....

You mean how the, "Grant Wish," spell was written up in the FH Grimoire as a simple EDM for one target to one other dimension? I had a conniption fit when I saw that myself. 45 Active/4 Real for a wish!? There has to be a little more in my settings, baby, even if I decide it can be done with EDM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I hate to shatter illusions, but I'm not really a giant kill-crazy mutated lizard...

 

PS - I'm really a hot lesbian!

I don't know. I have the feeling that a hot lesbian might be better at cornering Steve. He used to be an attorney after all, so there's a good chance he may not be too intimidated by giant kill-crazy mutated lizards....

[zornwil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I don't know. I have the feeling that a hot lesbian might be better at cornering Steve. He used to be an attorney after all' date=' so there's a good chance he may not be too intimidated by giant kill-crazy mutated lizards.... [/quote']

Heh, I hope Steve sees that, that's a good one!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

You too?!?!?

 

 

Ok... now THAT was funny. Repped.

[mikesama]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Useally I find the best use of DR is for characters that have it vrs energy or physical not both.

 

Example:

 

Erg: is a absortion base Energy projector who has 75% R DR vrs energy because he absorbs 90% of the incomming energy and uses it to power his EBs.

 

THis is the real use for DR, making someone very resistant to certain things

[Arsenal]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I also feel that we should move toward a more permissive style of Hero... but this needs to be done within boundaries.

 

Core Hero Mechanics do certain things very well (use a base human template to build enhanced but basically human characters that can interact with each other in a scalable way)... and other things (Alter Reality, vehicles, inanimate stuff in general) very poorly. The first step toward being more permissive is to recognize that some things are OUTSIDE the scope of Core Hero Mechanics... so they are add-ons, functionality that works alongside Core Hero Mechanics... but have their own builds and structures.

 

Once we recognize this... become comfortable with this... then you can start to build elegant designs that are "outside the box" of the Core Mechanics... but can be included in the Hero System as a whole. Much of this would be arbitrary builds that test... not against the core mechanics... but against certain genres and power levels of campaigns.

 

Say... create a power called "Alter Reality" and assign X as the cost... then define what it does. X might be just the right cost for such a power when most character have 350 - 400 points to spend... but this does NOT work when they have 1000 points to spend. (An issue with all fixed cost powers.) The point being, that such an Alter Reality power might "work" the same way that 40 point Desolidification "worked" back in the day of 200-250 points supers. Once we moved on to higher point levels and twenty years of maturing role playing... suddenly 40 point Desol has all kinds of issues and cracks that make it unworkable in many games.

 

The simple fact is that there is no universal, infinitely compatible way to build some effects and powers. Something equally balanced in function and cost and scalable to every possible game. That is just a pipe dream for many powers that are beyond attack, defense or movement. We just need to accept that... then look for more elegant builds that work outside of the core mechanics... but do what we want for the games we want to play.

 

Alter Reality might be one. It might be an entire suite of powers (like Instant Change/Transform/Adjustment powers/etc.) that just work in a different way than the Core Mechanics... yet still consistent within themselves... and supportive of the Core Mechnics. There are numerous ways this could be done... all of which require thought and development and play testing... etc.

 

Just saying that, where we need to be flexible is not just in allowing more builds... but allowing different ways of building things... different construct concepts that may not appear like Hero at first... but could become part of it over time.

 

You make some very excellent points. Truth be told, I do not seek to take up the torch of balancing Alter Reality against Energy Blast, nor would I suggest that to anyone else. I don't think that powers like Alter Reality are ever going to have a universally balanced point cost vs. power effect structure, so we're very much agreed on that point.

 

Being totally honest, I wouldn't go to Hero system for this sort of campaign, myself. If I simply had to run a campaign based around reality-bending in Hero, I would have to judge the rules for how to work that based on the specifics of the power concept. If it were something like Zelazney's infamous Amber books and their reality-traversing uber-powers, I would likely look to EDM and probably supplement it with other powers to simulate the lesser factors. If people were making wishes, I would probably build some power for the mechanism/entity that was doing the actual work without regard to budget - making a wish isn't a power, but granting a wish certainly is! (I'd use Transform or simply say "The genie can do this." And probably feel very dirty.)

 

Part of my point was that a player in a campaign that is not about altering reality should probably be politely told that their character concept does not fit the relevant setting/campaign/GM-style, but also asked what it was they were going for with the reality altering idea and worked with to find out if there is a potential for compromise. I'm certainly open to new constructions, but they have to fit the game being offered. Similarly, I want Damage Reduction to stay, not because I feel it's well-balanced or fits in well with the system, but because I'm willing to make a judgement call on its usage, both as a player and a GM. Maybe what I should have said initially is that I don't like the kludge of EDM as wish-fulfillment, but I think other GM's are free to make their own decisions on that. But I want the GM to make that decision, not to cajole the writers into altering the mechanics so they can say that something isn't legal. (Talk about altering reality! "EDM: Appeal to sense of balance.") I'm not as concerned with the system being balanced, point for point, as I am interested in the system being flexible. That doesn't mean I expect it to do literally anything. It does mean that I expect blanket and seemingly arbitrary decisions to be left out. Why is there no way to raise the maximum effect of Healing? I could easily skirt that rule by buying dice of Healing with the Limitation "Only to raise maximum" and be within the word of law, if not the spirit. I could build a Transform that automatically redesignates a Duplicate to be the core character, but I can't simply create a Duper without a core? Is there room for abuse if the rules allow you to? Yes. Is that bad? No. It's the GM's job to stop rules abuse. The system can't do it, especially in Hero. The existing level of permissiveness already opens the door for myriad abuses. Let the GM sort that out. And send the munchkins to play video games, where the system abuses aren't affecting anyone else's fun.

 

I don't want to coerce everyone into playing any edition of Hero my way. Goodness knows, there are power builds and conventions of character design that are accepted within my circle of gamers that would cause people to balk. However, there are a few topics that deserve to have their cause taken up and one of mine is the cause of minimal House Ruling. Maybe this is a problem of my 'gaming upbringing', but I'm not fond of altering rules or mechanics if I can avoid it. I don't see telling a player that a particular build isn't appropriate to my game as being a rules alteration; it's an issue of setting or genre.

 

My problem, and I feel the problem of others who don't like to engage in house ruling if at all possible, is that you have numerous examples of 'Oh, that's a special case' that make it really tough to use your best judgement in regards to FrED. Take Instant Change, for example. Hypothetically, you still need to make a targeting roll and use an attack action for that construction to work as built, but they make a special exception for it. Similarly, if Regeneration works as per Healing, then it stops working after you heal however many points of Body you have in Regeneration per Turn, because it would have to exceed the previous effect level to add any further effect. However, EDM is then used to simulate wish-granting in canonical works. So those of us who are reluctant to muck with the system are left in a bit of confusion. How do we use our best judgement here, especially in light of using the examples as a guide for what is and isn't recommended in the system? I don't see healing your wounds in combat time as particularly more useful than altering reality - especially since no exclusion is made to prevent the character's wish from including some method to heal themselves. So if they were to get rid of Damage Reduction, sure, I could get around that in a kludgerific way by building Armor with a limitation "only up to X%" or something, but I would feel the loss of it for not wanting to just House Rule/Grandfather the old power in, especially mechanically, because that Armor stops working properly if I get hit with a sufficiently large attack. And I would certainly be further incensed at the loss if I were to see the Adder "Alter Reality" made canon for EDM. (Though I think I just doomed myself by throwing that one out.)

 

Arsenal

 

PS: Apologies for being long-winded.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

How would you feel about giving a Reality Shifting XDM Power an Unluck Disad Side-Effect?

 

Warm and cuddly

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

You make some very excellent points. Truth be told, I do not seek to take up the torch of balancing Alter Reality against Energy Blast, nor would I suggest that to anyone else. I don't think that powers like Alter Reality are ever going to have a universally balanced point cost vs. power effect structure, so we're very much agreed on that point......

 

Can I commend you on what seems like a very sensible approach.

 

One point you make is about the proliferation of exceptions in HERO 5th edition. Whilst I can see how they can be helpful in some situations I am concerned that they are rather at odds with the stated intention of having a consistent system and leaving matters of individual interpretation up to the good sense of, well, individuals.

 

Good post.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

...why not buy Armor with a Limitation like "Only up to X% of the damage"? Just a thought.

I'm actually pretty hot for this idea.

 

Does anyone have good intuition for statting Limitations? Here's my early shot in the dark...

 

25% = -1 3/4

50% = -1

75% = -1/4

 

Now keep in mind, figuring out the costs of new Powers is my Kryptonite, and I hate doing it, but I like the idea of this Limitation:

 

Bullet Resistant: Armor (40 PD) (60 Active Points); Only Up To 75% Of The Damage (-1/4). Total cost: 48 Character Point.

 

Duo-Dimensional Physiology: Armor (50 PD/50 ED) (150 Active Points); Only Up To 50% Of The Damage (-1). Total cost: 75 Character Points.

 

Power Sink Field: Force Field (30 ED) (30 Active Points); Only Up To 25% Of The Damage (-1 3/4). Total Cost: 11 Character Points.

 

 

Do the Costs of these Limitations agree with any of you?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Does anyone have good intuition for statting Limitations? Here's my early shot in the dark...

 

25% = -1 3/4

50% = -1

75% = -1/4

 

hmmm...

 

Well, you get the benefits of the stated % of defenses at a minimum. If that was all you could get, the appropriate limitations would be -3 (resulting in 25% cost), -1 (results in half cost) and about -1/4 (results in 80% of the cost; -1/2 results in 2/3). If the attack would have exceeded your total defenses anyway, you'd get the full benefit of the defenses, so the limitation should leave the cost greater than just buying that % of the defenses.

 

Eyeballing it, I'd agree with -1/4 for 75%. I'd cut 50% down to -3/4 or even -1/2 (a lot depends on how often the full defenses will, in fact, apply). I'd call 25% a -2 (I'd go higher, but that's the traditional cap).

 

The problem with this approach is that it devalues any other limitations. For example, "only vs sonic attacks" for a character highly resistant to sonic attacks. That's not the greatest example, since such a character would likely have taken 75% damage reduction otherwise, which is a minimal limitation. If it's a sporadic protection field (act 11-), the savings are pretty minimal after that 25% limitation.

[Mister E]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

hmmm...

 

Well, you get the benefits of the stated % of defenses at a minimum. If that was all you could get, the appropriate limitations would be -3 (resulting in 25% cost), -1 (results in half cost) and about -1/4 (results in 80% of the cost; -1/2 results in 2/3). If the attack would have exceeded your total defenses anyway, you'd get the full benefit of the defenses, so the limitation should leave the cost greater than just buying that % of the defenses.

 

Eyeballing it, I'd agree with -1/4 for 75%. I'd cut 50% down to -3/4 or even -1/2 (a lot depends on how often the full defenses will, in fact, apply). I'd call 25% a -2 (I'd go higher, but that's the traditional cap).

 

The problem with this approach is that it devalues any other limitations. For example, "only vs sonic attacks" for a character highly resistant to sonic attacks. That's not the greatest example, since such a character would likely have taken 75% damage reduction otherwise, which is a minimal limitation. If it's a sporadic protection field (act 11-), the savings are pretty minimal after that 25% limitation.

Hm... what if the number of Active Points in the Power was figured after the application of the Limitation? It would be like creating an uber flexible new Power:

 

Armor (30 PD); Only Up To 25% Of Damage (-2) (15 active Points)...

 

EDIT: Not surprisingly, this is the actual Cost of Resistant Damage Reduction 25%.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Hm... what if the number of Active Points in the Power was figured after the application of the Limitation? It would be like creating an uber flexible new Power:

 

Armor (30 PD); Only Up To 25% Of Damage (-2) (15 active Points)...

 

EDIT: Not surprisingly, this is the actual Cost of Resistant Damage Reduction 25%.

 

 

....which leads to the question 'Who would buy this in preference to 25% damage reduction?'

 

I mean, it does the same thing UP TO 30 points of damage, then is less effective, and doesn't protect against NND and armour piercing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

One point you make is about the proliferation of exceptions in HERO 5th edition. Whilst I can see how they can be helpful in some situations I am concerned that they are rather at odds with the stated intention of having a consistent system and leaving matters of individual interpretation up to the good sense of' date=' well, individuals.[/quote']

Agreed! I think close to the same effect as all the exceptions could actually have been achieved with a little simplification and possibly some more general statements or, "Meta-Rules."

[The Souljourner]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I like DR. The rule is elegant and does exactly what you expect it to. It has no loopholes, is easy to understand, and is hard to abuse. More powers should be like DR, not fewer.

 

So what if it's not built exactly like Armor or Energy Blast? If you try to generalize things too much they get too complicated. Sure, you could make it a limitation on Armor, but personally, I think that's kludgy. You end up with something that is basically the same, but far more complicated to implement.

 

If you don't like that it works against NND attacks... make DR not work against NND attacks (except maybe with a special add-on/advantage). If you think it's too cheap, make it more expensive.

 

I don't think DR really gets better as points go up. It actually stays exactly the same by it's very design. Let's assume a 10d6 EB will normally do 1/2 a character's Body in damage at 250 character points (I'm just making up numbers here). 50% DR will reduce that damage to 1/4 of a character's Body. Now we scale everything up by 100%. A 20d6 EB will do 1/2 a character's Body in damage at 500 character points. 50% DR will reduce that damage to 1/4 of a character's body. Same effect, same cost.

 

Just because at 250 character points 50% DR is blocking 5 Body in damage and at 500 it's blocking 10, doesn't mean its effectiveness has doubled. To the character getting hit, it's the same percentage of his total being prevented.... he's still taking twice as much damage from an attack which is twice as big.

 

The reason Armor doesn't work the same way is that doubling your Armor makes you immune to things that used to hurt a lot. 100 guys shooting 6d6 rifles at the DR guy will kill him off fairly quickly. The same guys shooting at the armor guy will do nothing at all.

 

Perhaps the points could change, I don't know, but the basic concept of the power is just fine, in my opinion.

 

-Nate

 

P.S. - EDM as Alter Reality is a huge hack. No alternate realities in my universe. Other dimensions? Sure, but they're wildly different from ours.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

Hey, Souljourner!

 

I like DR.

 

Exactly how this thread starts!

 

I think DamRed is a splendid little power, but then I really like Golden Heroes (an ancient system now): my concern is that it is a fixed cost power. Your analysis is, with respect, slightly flawed because, with the scaling up example, the cost of every other defence would double: as DamRed stays as a fixed cost, giving points to spend without reducing the effectiveness of the power, so the higher the points total of the power, the more efficient DamRed becomes - not in terms of proportion of damage stopped - but in actual points of damage stopped and character point cost.

 

I think DamRed is reasonably balanced for some campaigns, depending on the average DC of the game: assuming average DCs are 12, 25% DR stops about 10 points (the same as 10 point of PD would - at the same cost), 50% stops 21 (roughly the same as 20 pd and at the same cost) and 75% stops 30 (rather less than the 40 pd you could buy with the points.

 

At lower average campaign DCs, the power is not as points effective, and at hiher ones it becomes almost essential.

 

Interestingly enough you have to get to campaign average damage of 17 to 18 DCs before 75% DamRed becomes points efficient.

 

Mind you DamRed has certain advantages - specifically against NND and AP attacks - at all levels, which slews the points in favour of it. Against that, DamRed lets damage through at all levels so small autofire attacks, for instance, are more effective against DamRed than Armour. Lets say the pros and cons balance.

 

On this analysis, once you start taking 12DC attacks regularly you really should think about investing in some level of DamRed.

 

The power mechanics are useful and easily applied, but the cost is only ever going to be balanced in specific campaigns, and, given that HERO is dedicated to the idea of acheiving some sort of balance, this could be quite a problem.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I think maybe I see why we're not quite seeing eye to eye... I'm assuming that the only people who can take DR are the people for whom the power makes sense.

 

For example, Joe Schmoe Martial Artist probably shouldn't ever be able to take Energy Damage Reduction. Damage Reduction is only for the Brickiest Bricks, and certain other characters whose character concepts warrant it... Stretchy Guy could take it for physical, Firey Guy could take it specifically against fire... etc.

 

I believe that is the true balancer... the GM. Maybe DR needs a STOP sign next to it to indicate to the GM that he should take extra time in considering which people should be allowed take this power.

 

Yes, I can see that it could be a problem if everyone takes it for every damage type... then fights will just always take 4 times as long.... but if only a few characters can take it for specific reasons closely tied to their character concept, then I think it's ok.

 

-Nate

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I think maybe I see why we're not quite seeing eye to eye... I'm assuming that the only people who can take DR are the people for whom the power makes sense.

 

For example, Joe Schmoe Martial Artist probably shouldn't ever be able to take Energy Damage Reduction. Damage Reduction is only for the Brickiest Bricks, and certain other characters whose character concepts warrant it... Stretchy Guy could take it for physical, Firey Guy could take it specifically against fire... etc.

 

I believe that is the true balancer... the GM. Maybe DR needs a STOP sign next to it to indicate to the GM that he should take extra time in considering which people should be allowed take this power.

 

Yes, I can see that it could be a problem if everyone takes it for every damage type... then fights will just always take 4 times as long.... but if only a few characters can take it for specific reasons closely tied to their character concept, then I think it's ok.

 

-Nate

 

Why not? One of the main ways I justify DR for characters is the classic "not a solid hit" kind of power. The classic martial artist is the EXACT person who should have DR for energy and physical, which represents that he is always moving and never gets tagged squarely. Non-persistent and 15- activation often rounds that out, but not absolutely necessary. DR can be justified in a dozen different ways. Just thinking that it has to be "resistance to fire" for fire characters is limited.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Damage Reduction

 

I had a great idea. (At least I think it's great) It keeps the power fairly simple, but allows it to scale like other powers.

 

Make the power such that you have to pay per point of STUN and BODY you reduce. Lower percentage reduction is cheaper per point.

 

Let's make up a chart, so it's more obvious what I'm talking about:

 

% Cost

25% 1

50% 2

75% 3

 

So, let's say you pay 80 points for 50% damage reduction of up to 40 points of damage. The first 40 points of damage you take from any attack, you would ignore half of. Any damage over 40 points is not halved.

 

I haven't thought about appropriate pricing, the above is just pulled out of the air, but I think the general mechanic works the way people want - it costs more to reduce more damage, and, it's very simple, which I like.

 

-Nate