Walking On The Sun

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

So you gain 3 advantages [invisible: +1' date= 0 end: +1/2, pesistent:+1/2] in exchange for no range and self only? Sorry, but that doesn't float. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make it cheap, but that's just too cheap. Good luck with your trials though.

 

Yet that is *exactly* what Force Field and Armor does. I wouldn't raise the costs above 3 points per 1 resistant Damage Mitigation in any case because then the costs of near invulnerability or immunity (with the right limitations applied ) become too high for wide spread use. I want the new power to apply to low and high powered campaigns equally. So the AP of a decent level of Damage Mitigation can't be too great.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Oh and Invisible wouldn't be costed. It is just an assumed part of the power like Clininging or Armor or Flash Defense is not 'visible' per say. The SFX is there, it just doesn't *have to* jump out at you like Energy Blast or Force Field.

 

Hawksmoor

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Yet that is *exactly* what Force Field and Armor does. I wouldn't raise the costs above 3 points per 1 resistant Damage Mitigation in any case because then the costs of near invulnerability or immunity (with the right limitations applied ) become too high for wide spread use. I want the new power to apply to low and high powered campaigns equally. So the AP of a decent level of Damage Mitigation can't be too great.

 

Hawksmoor

Ok, let me put it this way then: I don't want a character to be immune to a 20 DC attack for 50 points when the established rules have him being only 75% immune for 60 points with damage reduction. That's the reason I choose my version of impervious to cost 5 points for +1 full defense. 20 DC of defense costs 100 points. That's more than the cost of damage reduction, and it should be because it's offering you more.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Ok' date=' let me put it this way then: I don't want a character to be immune to a 20 DC attack for 50 points when the established rules have him being only 75% immune for 60 points with damage reduction. That's the reason I choose my version of impervious to cost 5 points for +1 full defense. 20 DC of defense costs 100 points. That's more than the cost of damage reduction, and it should be because it's offering you more.[/quote']

 

But it should not also cost more than Force Wall which would do the same thing for much less. 50 AP of Force Wall could erect a field that would bounce an average roll from a 20DC attack. Granted the Force Wall would entirely fall if a single pip of damage from a non covered source attacked it. Damage Mitigation does not have that drawback since it is by definition a persistent power.

 

100 CP is too much for the utility IMO. Parity is what I am looking for as well. Yes, Damage Reduction costs more in certain applications but Damage Reduction always applies whether from NND or AVLD or Armor Piercing or what have you. Damage Mitigation is a standard power that can be avoided partially or fully by those advantages just like Armor, Force Wall or even lowly Damage Resistance would be.

 

Immunity or Invulnerablity is part of a suite of abilities not the core schtick of most characters. Costing it too high ends up in the same place we are now. Bulletproof and Kirby's Fausta (or F-lady). Both are too limited by the point expendatures made to make them nearly invulnerable to do anything else.

 

Hawksmoor

[MitchellS]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Immunity or Invulnerablity is part of a suite of abilities not the core schtick of most characters. Costing it too high ends up in the same place we are now. Bulletproof and Kirby's Fausta (or F-lady). Both are too limited by the point expendatures made to make them nearly invulnerable to do anything else.

Costing it too cheap only creates game inbalance. You can't expect starting characters [350 points] to have the same abilities as an established character. Most, not all but most, of the characters who have this ability in the comics are not 350 point characters. It seems like you're determined to make 350 points act like 500+ point characters.

 

It's not unreasonable to assume a 350 point character should be able to bounce bullets. It is unreasonable to assume he should be bouncing Dr. Destroyer's standard attack [20d6 with 0 end] for only 50 points. Invulnerability should be expensive because it offers a lot of bang for the buck. That shouldn't be taken for granted for no other reason then wanting to make starting characters more powerful.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

unfortunately I have to agree...Invulnerability should not be that cheap. And actually IMO 350 point characters who want to be Invulnerable should have to spend a large number of points to get it.

 

I recently built a character who is efectively invulnerable to physical attacks (even his own) at a very high level. He is not a 350 point character, so doing so was not an issue for him. (750 point stone dragon)

 

for 50% DR PD, 30 resistant double hardened Armor PD (only 30 resistant energy with a 25% reduction in damage. Thouh he is immune via the 120AP to lightning damage), now, the damage cap in my game is 15d6 for starting player characters. Now this guy is an NPC, but I want him to be really tough (IMO stone Dragons should be) He also has 14 regular PD

 

He can get hit with max stun from a 20d6 EB and not get con stunned. The max stun that goes through is 38, His Con is 40. Now the most that the players will dish out is 23 stun at max (15 DC on an energy blast). So efectively, he will never be KOed by a PC.

 

He isn't immune to damage, but it's good enough to simulate it and not make the PCs feel like they can't get anywhere. It was expensive, mainly because I want him to be able to take a little stun now and again.

 

Which comes to one of my first issues with cheap invulnerability...why should I pay more to actually take damage? If we make Invulnerability cheaper than DR, at say 75%, then why ever buy defenses that actually loow you to take a little damage? It would effectively keep people from buying any. I've always felt DR was a good example of limited invulnerability. Either we make Invulnerability more expensive than DR, or we make DR cheaper.

 

It's not that we can't make things invulnerable. It's just that it isn't cheap. but IMO it really shouldn't be.

 

If you want a character that doesn't take stun, with the way the game curently is you're going to have to dish out more points. After all, almost all battles end when the opponent is stunned out of the game in HERO. If you can only loose when you drop enough Body, then fights will never end. And if you make it cheap, well then most people are going to have it, or get eaten alive by those who do.

 

I don't want to have to drop things like Invulnerability on all my critters just so PCs that have it don't kill them really easy. Just on an ocasional one, like Kelix here.

 

After you try your new power construct let us know if you elt it was balanced. I think as A player I would like it. But as a GM it's a nightmare.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

But it should not also cost more than Force Wall which would do the same thing for much less. 50 AP of Force Wall could erect a field that would bounce an average roll from a 20DC attack. Granted the Force Wall would entirely fall if a single pip of damage from a non covered source attacked it. Damage Mitigation does not have that drawback since it is by definition a persistent power.

 

100 CP is too much for the utility IMO. Parity is what I am looking for as well. Yes, Damage Reduction costs more in certain applications but Damage Reduction always applies whether from NND or AVLD or Armor Piercing or what have you. Damage Mitigation is a standard power that can be avoided partially or fully by those advantages just like Armor, Force Wall or even lowly Damage Resistance would be.

 

Immunity or Invulnerablity is part of a suite of abilities not the core schtick of most characters. Costing it too high ends up in the same place we are now. Bulletproof and Kirby's Fausta (or F-lady). Both are too limited by the point expendatures made to make them nearly invulnerable to do anything else.

 

Hawksmoor

Concretely, what expense level and functionality do you really want, then, with "Damage Mitigation"? I'm not clear, given that you imply here it doesn't cover NNDs or AP or such by default, but it is supposed to grant "near-invulnerability" of some sort, and at a cost, what, around 50 points as MitchellS infers? Are you basically looking for the equivalent of a personal Force Wall, as you imply here?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm actually wondering if a version of Damage Reduction that worked before defenses might be a happy medium between the current standard mechanics and a complete, "invulnerability," construct. It would truly allow some characters to become quite impervious without stepping on the toes of those who do not like, "absolutes." This should certainly be expensive (maybe a +2 Advantage, or a version of the Power with something like double or triple the normal Base Cost, which makes Advantages much more costly?). Maybe it could also have some mitigating rules that normal DR does not, such as being, "halved," by AP and such.

[shaunclinton]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Invulnerability is really just high defences, damage reduction and the ability to recover what little STUN and BODY you might take quickly. How many comics characters have invulnerability but then are patently harmed when attacked? The only character in a comic I've ever seen who took literally not a lick of damage from any attack ever was the Saint of Killers in Preacher. Even then I'm sure there must be something which would breach his defences, so he's probably not literally invulnerable... just really, really hard to hurt.

 

Even characters who are 'immune to fire' or the like only seem to by immune to it until the next mega-all-powerful fire guy shows up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm actually wondering if a version of Damage Reduction that worked before defenses might be a happy medium between the current standard mechanics and a complete' date=' "invulnerability," construct. It would truly allow some characters to become quite impervious without stepping on the toes of those who do not like, "absolutes." This should certainly be expensive (maybe a +2 Advantage, or a version of the Power with something like double or triple the normal [i']Base[/i] Cost, which makes Advantages much more costly?). Maybe it could also have some mitigating rules that normal DR does not, such as being, "halved," by AP and such.

 

 

No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....OK. I'll elucidate. At present, DRed acts as a multiplier to STUN/BODY. If you applied it before defences, it would act as a multiplier to defences.

 

EG: 30ed and 75% DRed. 120 points of damage.

 

At present: 120-30=90/4=22 Stun

 

DRed b4 def = 120/4=30-30= NO STUN.

 

OK, if invulnerability is what you want this is a way to do it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm actually wondering if a version of Damage Reduction that worked before defenses might be a happy medium between the current standard mechanics and a complete' date=' "invulnerability," construct. It would truly allow some characters to become quite impervious without stepping on the toes of those who do not like, "absolutes." This should certainly be expensive (maybe a +2 Advantage, or a version of the Power with something like double or triple the normal [i']Base[/i] Cost, which makes Advantages much more costly?). Maybe it could also have some mitigating rules that normal DR does not, such as being, "halved," by AP and such.

I don't think I said it in this thread but I have elsewhere that I have a +1 Advantage to DR which is "apply before defenses". So far only seen on tough NPCs. It seems okay but that's not much of a test.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Invulnerability is really just high defences, damage reduction and the ability to recover what little STUN and BODY you might take quickly. How many comics characters have invulnerability but then are patently harmed when attacked? The only character in a comic I've ever seen who took literally not a lick of damage from any attack ever was the Saint of Killers in Preacher. Even then I'm sure there must be something which would breach his defences, so he's probably not literally invulnerable... just really, really hard to hurt.

 

Even characters who are 'immune to fire' or the like only seem to by immune to it until the next mega-all-powerful fire guy shows up.

There were definitely incarnations of Superman where he was invulnerable to physical and energy (non-magic, non-kryptonite) attacks.

 

Nice pick with Saint of Killers, by the way!

 

Though I would agree that true absolute invulnerability is extremely rare, to the degree where I really don't see a core rules need. I do see, however, an SFX-based invulnerability need. Although one could argue that could be achieved with Personal Immunity for some characters and a reasonable GM call as to what that means.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

...I do see' date=' however, an SFX-based invulnerability need....[/quote']

 

 

People will get those words mixed up: what you see is a SFX-based invulnerability want. Mind you, this is a game and so maybe that is enough of an argument to have something included.

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

People will get those words mixed up: what you see is a SFX-based invulnerability want. Mind you' date=' this is a game and so maybe that is enough of an argument to have something included. [/quote']

Well, I use the term "need" to mean that it occurs so frequently in the source material it ought to be replicated. Obviously, it's an opinion, of course, but just to be clear as to why I used that term.

[Mister E]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The Saint of Killers... man, what a sweet origin story that guy had. Freezing Hell with his hate... killing the Devil as an after-thought, while leaving...

 

If he had just a little more personality, or any kind of personal agenda, he would have rawked uber-hard.

 

As it was, he was more of a walking force of nature, than anything else. Kind of a cosmic manifestation of divine vengence. Very cool.

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Though I would agree that true absolute invulnerability is extremely rare' date=' to the degree where I really don't see a core rules need. I do see, however, an SFX-based invulnerability need. Although one could argue that could be achieved with Personal Immunity for some characters and a reasonable GM call as to what that means.[/quote']

 

Well, my own reaction to all of this remains "meh". Cheap invulnerability to a wide range of attacks guarantees that lots of characters will have it, boosting the value of and need for speial attacks and greatly changing the balance of the game. I don't like the idea. I have posted a few characters who were for all practical purposes invulnerable to almost anything in a standard campaign, but then it was their primary schtick. I don't mind at all that it chewed up most of their points. It should chew up most of your points in a 350 point campaign; post 1940 Superman is not a 350 point character (although you can come close).

 

There may be more of a need for cheap invulnerability to a single SFX. Even there, buying existing defenses vs a single SFX has more appeal than jury-rigging a new mechanic.

 

If I did go for a new mechanic based on these discussions, it would be the 120 points for 100% Damage Reduction option. 32 PD or ED of Hardened armor plus 75% Damage reduction for the ame 120 points woul already make you close enough to Invulnerable (in a standard campaign) that it makes very little diff.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Invulnerability is really just high defences, damage reduction and the ability to recover what little STUN and BODY you might take quickly. How many comics characters have invulnerability but then are patently harmed when attacked? The only character in a comic I've ever seen who took literally not a lick of damage from any attack ever was the Saint of Killers in Preacher. Even then I'm sure there must be something which would breach his defences, so he's probably not literally invulnerable... just really, really hard to hurt.

 

Even characters who are 'immune to fire' or the like only seem to by immune to it until the next mega-all-powerful fire guy shows up.

Sure, in comics. How many fire elementals or red dragons do you see getting hurt by fire in a D&D setting? Are we restricting ourselves back to comic book genres again? :yawn:

[zornwil]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Well, my own reaction to all of this remains "meh". Cheap invulnerability to a wide range of attacks guarantees that lots of characters will have it, boosting the value of and need for speial attacks and greatly changing the balance of the game. I don't like the idea. I have posted a few characters who were for all practical purposes invulnerable to almost anything in a standard campaign, but then it was their primary schtick. I don't mind at all that it chewed up most of their points. It should chew up most of your points in a 350 point campaign; post 1940 Superman is not a 350 point character (although you can come close).

 

There may be more of a need for cheap invulnerability to a single SFX. Even there, buying existing defenses vs a single SFX has more appeal than jury-rigging a new mechanic.

 

If I did go for a new mechanic based on these discussions, it would be the 120 points for 100% Damage Reduction option. 32 PD or ED of Hardened armor plus 75% Damage reduction for the ame 120 points woul already make you close enough to Invulnerable (in a standard campaign) that it makes very little diff.

 

I'm not suggesting whatsoever that there be cheap invulnerability for a wide range of attacks. Exactly what I'm proposing is a cheap invulnerability to a single SFX. That's in fact how I've done it in my campaign. I think I finally hit the sweet spot, at least for my games, it used to be priced so high nobody wanted it, then priced down, then after a while of play and analysis priced it back up a bit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

The Saint of Killers... man, what a sweet origin story that guy had. Freezing Hell with his hate... killing the Devil as an after-thought, while leaving...

 

If he had just a little more personality, or any kind of personal agenda, he would have rawked uber-hard.

 

As it was, he was more of a walking force of nature, than anything else. Kind of a cosmic manifestation of divine vengence. Very cool.

 

 

...and the question of the day is: would you want someone to be able to build that kind of invulnerability in your game? I wouldn't. Moreover as a GM I have no desire to see such a power so that I can give it to villains. If I don't want a GM character taking damage, they don't. Simplest mechanism there is.

 

Your comparison with a force of nature is well made: you don't feel the need to give an earthquake invulnerability, there is no need to give it to another force of nature just becasue it is shaped like a character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Sure' date=' in comics. How many fire elementals or red dragons do you see getting hurt by fire in a D&D setting? Are we restricting ourselves back to comic book genres again? :yawn:[/quote']

 

So DnD is source material for Hero? Hmmmm....do you think that is air you are breathing....?

 

Direct comparisons of abilities in one game system and another that use different systems are rarely helpful. What works in one system may not work in another. If you want fire immunity, fine. Pick an appropriate number of points for your campaign, pay them and you are away.

 

Trouble is you make invulnerability available and it becomes increasingly attractive in high points games where players have complete editorial control over their characters. That is not how DnD characters work: you can't build the character you envisage, you have to stick to the abilities of a class, which, presumably, are reasonably balanced anyway.

 

I am opposed, in general, to the idea of introducing fixed cost powers and invulnerability to fire (for example) has to be a fixed cost power. It throws the game balance out, unless you scale the fixed cost to the campaign which is, frankly, too much work. Despite the hype, Hero does not do absolutely anything you can image, nor should it, IMO.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

well, frankly I need elementl immunities for my game in the fall. There are red dragons, and they are immune to fire. And the did NOT come from DnD.

 

There is nothing wrong about elemental immunitites in fantasy genre. There is nothing wrong with them in other genre if the character concept calls for it.

 

I don't want cheap invulnerability. And I'm perfectly content with the 120 AP 100% resistance. you can scale it down by increasing the limitation for only against X depending on realistically how often X will actuall come into play. Only against fire is worth less of a limitation than only against ice, or electricity in my game. Fire is more common. So the immunity costs more, i.e. it's more versitile.

 

This is a 500 point game, with NPCs around 1200 being pretty prevalent. So the cost doesn't matter. But garunteeing immunity is still very hard. I think it makes more sense to put degrees on elemental attacks. For example, I've made a modifier depending on what level of fire you want to be aimmune to. And attacks can add this adder to them to increase the level, and so can defenses.

 

And I'm fine paying the points for these abilitites, as Im mostly making NPCs and the points don't really matter.

 

But there is call for it. We might not need a core mechanic for immunities, but why not make an optional rule on DR?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I'm not suggesting whatsoever that there be cheap invulnerability for a wide range of attacks. Exactly what I'm proposing is a cheap invulnerability to a single SFX. That's in fact how I've done it in my campaign. I think I finally hit the sweet spot' date=' at least for my games, it used to be priced so high nobody wanted it, then priced down, then after a while of play and analysis priced it back up a bit.[/quote']

 

I continue to believe the 120 point Damage Reduction is a decent aproach for invulnerability to, say, physical and energy attacks. You want a mid-60's to '70's Superman? That's 120 each for Physical, Energy and Adjustment Damage Reduction = 360/1.25 (not vs magic) = 288 points. And Flash and Mental attacks still work. No, you won't be building Superman on 350 points.

 

The bigger issue is "I want to be invulnerable to flame/ heat attacks". Assume first that I buy the logic that full immunity is possible. Fantasy examples abound, and there are some comic book examples, including some incarnations of Superman (other Kryptonians bat each other around, but neither can realy hurt the other).

 

If 120 points for "immune to energy attacks" is reasonable, and -1/2 for "fire/heat only" is reasonable, the reasonable price is 80 points. As set out above, I can buy into 120 being reasonable for full invulnerability to energy attacks. I cannot buy into invulnerability to all energy attacks except fire/heat being worth 40 points, so I think the cost reduction should be increased.

 

Sorry, guys, but the "specific SFX invulnerability" really does come down to "Is the limitation priced appropriately".

 

Perhaps we should look back to damage reduction. If we accept a top end where one is 100% invulnerable to a given type of damage, what about builkding up from the bottom again? Maybe 60 is reasonable for complete invulnerability to a wide array of attacks from that area, the same as a 75% reduction in all such attacks. If about half the campaign attacks hat affect PD will be avoided, a 50% point rebate seems reasonable. So, for physical attacks, invulnerability to all bludgeoning effects might fall into this category.

 

What if I only want to be immune to, say, bullets (they bounce, but a club to the back of the head and down he drops). Assuming these are a pretty common attack form, being invulnerable is reasonably worth in the range of 30 points, the same as 50% damage reduction (you'll see about 1/4 of attacks with this effect, so a price in the 25% range is reasonable). Bullets may be less common in some games and more comon in others - this would price differently in Galactic Champions than Street Level Supers.

 

Maybe there's a fairly exotic attack form we're looking at. MNoving to energy, it's only Sonics that the character is invulnerable to. How often will we see that? Maybe 15 points is a reasonable price for immunity to sonic attacks. After all, it's not going to come into play all the time, or even often.

 

Seems like a reasonable approach to me, and I think it would work in my games. But it could just as easily be an acknowledgement that a greater limitation should be allowed on SFX specific defenses. Applying a simplar discount, 30 points would buy me +60 resistant PD, double hardened, only against bullets. That's functional invulnerability as far as I'm concerned, and far better simulates the approach of "invulnerable until someone tougher comes along".

[OddHat]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I continue to believe the 120 point Damage Reduction is a decent aproach for invulnerability to, say, physical and energy attacks. (SNIP)

 

Sorry, guys, but the "specific SFX invulnerability" really does come down to "Is the limitation priced appropriately".

 

Perhaps we should look back to damage reduction. If we accept a top end where one is 100% invulnerable to a given type of damage, what about builkding up from the bottom again? Maybe 60 is reasonable for complete invulnerability to a wide array of attacks from that area, the same as a 75% reduction in all such attacks. If about half the campaign attacks hat affect PD will be avoided, a 50% point rebate seems reasonable. So, for physical attacks, invulnerability to all bludgeoning effects might fall into this category.

 

What if I only want to be immune to, say, bullets (they bounce, but a club to the back of the head and down he drops). Assuming these are a pretty common attack form, being invulnerable is reasonably worth in the range of 30 points, the same as 50% damage reduction (you'll see about 1/4 of attacks with this effect, so a price in the 25% range is reasonable). Bullets may be less common in some games and more comon in others - this would price differently in Galactic Champions than Street Level Supers.

 

Maybe there's a fairly exotic attack form we're looking at. MNoving to energy, it's only Sonics that the character is invulnerable to. How often will we see that? Maybe 15 points is a reasonable price for immunity to sonic attacks. After all, it's not going to come into play all the time, or even often.

 

Seems like a reasonable approach to me, and I think it would work in my games. But it could just as easily be an acknowledgement that a greater limitation should be allowed on SFX specific defenses. Applying a simplar discount, 30 points would buy me +60 resistant PD, double hardened, only against bullets. That's functional invulnerability as far as I'm concerned, and far better simulates the approach of "invulnerable until someone tougher comes along".

 

Repped. I'd be comfortable seeing this in a campaign.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

Concretely' date=' what expense level and functionality do you really want, then, with "Damage Mitigation"? I'm not clear, given that you imply here it doesn't cover NNDs or AP or such by default, but it is supposed to grant "near-invulnerability" of some sort, and at a cost, what, around 50 points as MitchellS infers? Are you basically looking for the equivalent of a personal Force Wall, as you imply here?[/quote']

 

Damage Mitigation is very much like a personal force wall. In very basic mechanical principles. The power differs in that being built from the start as a persistent standard power it has options that Force Wall (and its cousin Force Field) lack. Thus it acts in some ways like an upgraded option of Armor.

 

The cost of Damage Mitigation is effectively limited only by two things: what the GM will allow and what you as a player want to pay. Just like in regular HERO. Damage Mitigation is not absolute, like say your system or some others I have seen. This is why I brainstormed up a new name for the power. So players like Onyxclaw wouldn't seize upon invulnerability as a word and concept in ways that do not apply. Thus you get exactly what you pay for. Damage Mitigation is just one more tool in the tool kit.

 

The power Damage Mitigation would not offer defense vs. NNDs because those are blocked by SFX and on occasion powers with an SFX. Damage Mitigation is just a game construct until applied to a character, then it could if defined correctly block some NNDs just like other defense powers could be defined as a 'Force Field' and block a given NND. The same argument holds true for other advantages.

 

So for two examples I assume that 60CP are spent on Damage Mitigation.

 

Firelord purchases 60AP of Damage Mitigation (DM) as 24rED only vs Heat and Flame Attacks -1. Now when attacked by any heat or flame SFX attack or condition Firelord compares the BODY dealt from the attack to his DM if the attack does not exceed his DM Firelord takes no damage from the attack. If the attack deals 25+ Body Firelord then applies the damage (both Body and STUN) to the aggregate score of his Energy Defense (ED + DM + any other applicable powers).

 

Stonelad of the Group of Superior Buds purchases 60CP of Damage Mitigation (DM) to represent his rock-like hide when he says the name of his mentor "Granite Carson". Stonelad defines his power as 14rPD 10rED Damage Mitigation OIHID -.25. When ever Stonelad is struck by any regular attack he compares the BODY total to either the PD or ED of the Damage Mitigation. Unless the Body dealt exceeds his Damage Mitigation Stonelad takes no damage. If the attack deals more Body that Stonelad has DM then applies the damage (both Body and STUN) to the aggregate score of his defenses (PD or ED + DM (PD or ED) + any other applicable powers).

 

Seems pretty darned balanced to me.

 

Hawksmoor

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Walking On The Sun

 

I continue to believe the 120 point Damage Reduction is a decent aproach for invulnerability to, say, physical and energy attacks. You want a mid-60's to '70's Superman? That's 120 each for Physical, Energy and Adjustment Damage Reduction = 360/1.25 (not vs magic) = 288 points. And Flash and Mental attacks still work. No, you won't be building Superman on 350 points.

 

The bigger issue is "I want to be invulnerable to flame/ heat attacks". Assume first that I buy the logic that full immunity is possible. Fantasy examples abound, and there are some comic book examples, including some incarnations of Superman (other Kryptonians bat each other around, but neither can realy hurt the other).

 

If 120 points for "immune to energy attacks" is reasonable, and -1/2 for "fire/heat only" is reasonable, the reasonable price is 80 points. As set out above, I can buy into 120 being reasonable for full invulnerability to energy attacks. I cannot buy into invulnerability to all energy attacks except fire/heat being worth 40 points, so I think the cost reduction should be increased.

 

Sorry, guys, but the "specific SFX invulnerability" really does come down to "Is the limitation priced appropriately".

 

Perhaps we should look back to damage reduction. If we accept a top end where one is 100% invulnerable to a given type of damage, what about builkding up from the bottom again? Maybe 60 is reasonable for complete invulnerability to a wide array of attacks from that area, the same as a 75% reduction in all such attacks. If about half the campaign attacks hat affect PD will be avoided, a 50% point rebate seems reasonable. So, for physical attacks, invulnerability to all bludgeoning effects might fall into this category.

 

What if I only want to be immune to, say, bullets (they bounce, but a club to the back of the head and down he drops). Assuming these are a pretty common attack form, being invulnerable is reasonably worth in the range of 30 points, the same as 50% damage reduction (you'll see about 1/4 of attacks with this effect, so a price in the 25% range is reasonable). Bullets may be less common in some games and more comon in others - this would price differently in Galactic Champions than Street Level Supers.

 

Maybe there's a fairly exotic attack form we're looking at. MNoving to energy, it's only Sonics that the character is invulnerable to. How often will we see that? Maybe 15 points is a reasonable price for immunity to sonic attacks. After all, it's not going to come into play all the time, or even often.

 

Seems like a reasonable approach to me, and I think it would work in my games. But it could just as easily be an acknowledgement that a greater limitation should be allowed on SFX specific defenses. Applying a simplar discount, 30 points would buy me +60 resistant PD, double hardened, only against bullets. That's functional invulnerability as far as I'm concerned, and far better simulates the approach of "invulnerable until someone tougher comes along".

 

Actually...that's kind of what I'm doing with the DR. But I'm also allowing for PD/ED to be bought that way...

 

In my campaign the sfx limitations are rated on how common the attack is.

So 100% DR immunity [120 AP] to fire costs 60 points (common)

electricity costs 48 points (less common)

Cold Damage costs 40 points (slightly less common than electricity)

etc.

 

I think that they are pretty reasonable. But it all depends on the prevalence of such things. In a 500 point game like the one I am running, these are reasonable prices.