Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

I think I may up the damage just a tad. Maybe even all the way to 6d6. I'm using the book's definition of Damage/ Bullet size, and myself, I prefer to have slightly more lethal damages, though I definitely won't add a STUNx modifier. Still, it's be like getting hit by two of my .50 Action Express cartridges... actually, that's appropriate considering the weapon.

 

Hey Fox, what do you think the PER Mod should be for this? ROFL!

 

Also, I found out that FREd does indeed have an entry about firearm PER Mods; you don't necessarily need Dark Champions.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Problem is, you only score an extra hit with Autofire for each 2 you make your attack roll by. This gun fires sooo fast, several bullets are guaranteed to hit in almost the same place almost simultaneously -- 100 bullets per second is A LOT. If I did it Autofire 6,000, the weapon would be pretty much worthless (because of the high cost for no real effect).

 

The only way to remedy this is to have a house rule that for every 2 points you make the attack roll by, (total autofire / 5 [or maybe 10]) extra bullets hit. For example, if I had Autofire 100, the first attack, if successful, causes 10 or 20 hits, if I make the attack roll by 2 I score 10 or 20 more hits, etcetera.

 

The other way to totally realistically represent really large RoF is to have a whole bunch of Linked Powers, but frankly, that'd be a whole lot more deadly than the way I do it. For example, I could Link four additional "4d6 Autofire 10" Powers to the first one.

 

Huge RoFs are a problem in Hero. If anyone has a very realistic/ reasonable/ fun solution that doesn't mainly depend upon house rules (or even if they do), please tell me. But just like with Energy Blast (stream of rubber bullets), it is okay according to the official rules to assume a single attack contains many projectiles -- just increase the damage (and in this case add Reduced Penetration once or even twice).

 

High cost no real effect is a hero problem not mine.

 

missing or gaining no extra bonuse for the other 99shots likewise.

 

its just silly

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Hey Fox' date=' what do you think the PER Mod should be for this? ROFL![/quote']

 

It counts as "visible to those who are blind as a bat in one eye and can't see out of the other"

 

More serious, I think Bulky already handles it (as it does the two-handed requirement).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Fox, would you consider 4d6 RKA (Reduced Penetration) to be ample damage for a tight volley of 3 - 5 5.56mm bullets, taking the fact that I prefer slightly higher damage than given in the official rules into consideration?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Okay, here's the tentative first writeup.

 

General Electric XM-214 Automatic Gun ___________________

 

RKA 4d6 (60 Character Points), Area of Effect (1 Hex; +1/2), Autofire 10 Only (+1), Charges (200; +1); Beam (-1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Strength Minimum (26, STR Min Cannot Add/ Subtract Damage; -1 1/2). Notes: Weapon MUST be used two-handed. The weapon weighs 30 lbs, and the clip (backpack) weighs 35 lbs.

 

Active Points: 210. Real Point Cost: 44.

 

Comments? Suggestions? Additions? Criticisms?

 

EDIT: Changed Autofire 10 to Autofire 10 Only.

 

why is it "str min doesn't add to damage"? it normally doesn't for an RKA

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

why is it "str min doesn't add to damage"? it normally doesn't for an RKA

 

You always add that in for ranged weapons, that's why it's there. With H2H it affects the damage you can do with the weapon, up to 2x the weapon's original Damage Classes.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Would you allow Reduced Penetration to be bought double-strength (attacks are divided by 1/4) for -1/2 instead of -1/4? To put it another way' date=' the attack's penetration ability is quartered, instead of merely halved.[/quote']

 

Yes I would allow this, in fact I have done so for shotguns to increase variables, I use unmodified damage (although reduced DC) for sabot slugs, 1x Rpen for Slugs (these are quite deadly but don't compare to rifles for penetration since they are large diameter, fairly slow softish lead bullets), 2x Rpen, Red by Range for Buckshot and 3x Rpen, RbR for smaller shot, (also reduced starting DC) this gives me a shotgun similar to the ones in 3rd edition, a 12 gauge looks something like this

 

Slug 2 1/2d6 RPen (two 1d6+1 attacks vs armor)

Sabot slug 1 1/2d6

Buck 4d6 Rpen x2, RbR (4 1d6 attacks vs armor at close range)

Small shot 3d6 RPen x3, RbR (8 1 pip attacks vs armor at close range)

 

So against unarmored targets the shotgun is very nasty, even with an inappropriate hunting load, but as you add armor it rapidly requires slugs to have a chance and you really should get yourself a rifle.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

why is it "str min doesn't add to damage"? it normally doesn't for an RKA

 

The books states you should use this for building Guns, specifically because when building weapons STR can add to damage - such as simulating certain Bows or other muscle-powered ranged weapons - if you want them to.

 

It's a book legal Limitation for Real Weapon RKA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Okay, here's the tentative first writeup.

 

General Electric XM-214 Automatic Gun ___________________

 

RKA 4d6 (60 Character Points), Area of Effect (1 Hex; +1/2), Autofire 10 Only (+1), Charges (200; +1); Beam (-1/4), OAF Bulky (-1 1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Strength Minimum (26, STR Min Cannot Add/ Subtract Damage; -1 1/2). Notes: Weapon MUST be used two-handed. The weapon weighs 30 lbs, and the clip (backpack) weighs 35 lbs.

 

Active Points: 210. Real Point Cost: 44.

 

Comments? Suggestions? Additions? Criticisms?

 

EDIT: Changed Autofire 10 to Autofire 10 Only.

 

Just from a pure gameplay POV I'd be inclined to reduce the Autofire to 5 instead, but you've got that to accurately reflect the RoF, correct? If yes then nevermind.

 

Due to the Reduced Penetration this will effectively knocksomeone silly if they've got 12rPD but never hurt them.. in fact someone with 9rPD may not get that hurt at all. You've mentioned you like a higher lethality rate, or at least damage rate, so you might either want to increase to 6D6K (for 2x3D6 with Reduced Penetration) or remove that limitation.

 

Other than that it appears to be an effective build.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Just from a pure gameplay POV I'd be inclined to reduce the Autofire to 5 instead, but you've got that to accurately reflect the RoF, correct? If yes then nevermind.

 

Due to the Reduced Penetration this will effectively knocksomeone silly if they've got 12rPD but never hurt them.. in fact someone with 9rPD may not get that hurt at all. You've mentioned you like a higher lethality rate, or at least damage rate, so you might either want to increase to 6D6K (for 2x3D6 with Reduced Penetration) or remove that limitation.

 

Other than that it appears to be an effective build.

 

The bullets are only 5.56mm, so their low penetration is quite appropriate (all other things being equal, of course). I may still increase the damage anyway, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

The bullets are only 5.56mm' date=' so their low penetration is quite appropriate (all other things being equal, of course). I may still increase the damage anyway, though.[/quote']

 

and besides.. fired upon a crowd of unarmored normals they become dogmeat in short order. So, 4D6 may be the best damage level for the effect desired. Or compromise and go up to 5D6.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

You know, it seems to me that firearms with an Autofire rate of 10 should have some sort of default OCV bonus. Getting up to those levels is hard uness you fire upon a very large object....

 

Wait. There it is. Don't expext to hit something 5 - 10 times with the minigun unless it's kind of large and has a crappy DCV, or you are a master at using the weapon. Makes sense. And with the fact that it is AoE (1 Hex), it makes even more sense since it goes against a DCV of 3. And also, upping the OCV would make the gun quite deadly to smaller targets.

 

Okay, I'm happy. Just needed to write out my thoughts. And I think, with the AoE and everything else, 4d6 (Reduced Penetration) should be enough damage for a tight volley of 5 5.56mm projectiles, even with my crazy damage system.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

You know, it seems to me that firearms with an Autofire rate of 10 should have some sort of default OCV bonus. Getting up to those levels is hard uness you fire upon a very large object....

 

Dark Champions brings back the old rule of +1 OCV per 5 shots in Autofire as an option.

[Fox1]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

why is it "str min doesn't add to damage"? it normally doesn't for an RKA

 

The FAQ attempts to answer this, and does it very badly, i.e. it was based upon an original concept of killing attack that never made it into the rules others.

 

Think of it like this (in designer thoughts):

 

"Killing Attack gives 1d6 per 15 points, if they want a ranged version of it- tack on usable at Range. Hmm, STR shouldn't add, lets make that a limit...

 

That's cool, let's work on other things.

 

You know a thought occurs, maybe it would be better if we define two types of KA, one ranged and one not. STR wouldn't normally work with the Ranged version... Yeah, that's better.

 

 

 

Not really sure if that was the exact thought process, but it how the FAQ made it sound.

 

Whatever the truth, it's a error that they never corrected. Best option is to house rule it away.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

ah ok, thanks guys!

[pinecone]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Write up looks cool...I'd have made it a multi so I can also have a AE: Line for supression fire as well... I guess a Cyborged commando might very well carry something like this while on a "bug hunt"......

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Here's a quandary I've been mulling over (again): Should I add any +OCV modifier to the writeup, given as it's Autofire 10? Such as +1 or +2? I'd welcome any suggestions (and logic behind the suggestions, if you want) anyone has concerning the issue. Apparently the official convention is +1 OCV per 5 Autofire, but perhaps the sheer bulkiness of this gun offsets that. And, of course, you could quite probably score many hits against a large target.

 

The main disadvantage to +2 OCV is that it guarantees one extra hit on the target (every roill will be made by an additional 2), making this weapon +4d6 deadlier against smaller targets.

 

And what about RMod? Miniguns do have quite a long range, as evidenced by their barrels, and it's easy to track by watching bullet impacts. On the other hand, perhaps the recoil of the weapon offsets this, as well.

 

Suggestions?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Write up looks cool...I'd have made it a multi so I can also have a AE: Line for supression fire as well... I guess a Cyborged commando might very well carry something like this while on a "bug hunt"......

 

I've thought about AE: Line, but it just doesn't seem as though it ought to work that way -- mainly because the Line would have to be No Range, and also quite long to accurately represent the range of the weapon (it has quite a long range). Though I do agree that bullets which miss the main target perhaps should get an opportunity to hit targets behind the first target -- since there are so many bullets. Still, it's be far to overpowered that way, and I'm not sure if it's the best solution.

 

Oh, and what is that modifier that makes a weapon more effective at certain ranges? Like when a gun is more effective at close range? I need to add that in. This weapon should get a large bonus if fired at a target who is adjacent or close by. Suggestions?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

i think +2 is nessisary, to represent the fact that it's a torrent of metal

[gewing]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

One of the things suggested for making the real-life man-pack minigun more practical as a weapon was to lower the RoF to 3000 rounds per minute' date=' which is still an insane stream of metal flying downrange but perhaps a bit more manageable.[/quote']

 

 

IIRC the REAL ones usually downshifted to only 1000rpm for battery powered use. IThink it took something like 2 12 volt auto batteries to run them (many military systems have traditionally been 24 volt).

 

 

There are replica gatling guns in .22lr. I'd love to see one converted to have a large ammo supply and run by a motor.

 

If you use the 5 bullets = one shot idea(good one by the way) I'd make it reduced pen. Those 5 bullets will tear things up, but not penetrate any significant amount more armor.

 

You might make it area effect Line also.

[gewing]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

This is pointless

 

in champions, sorry hero 5th, firing 100 bulits at a target per second dosent increase your chances of hitting the target ( oddly enought every military in the world disagrees with this base assumption ) -2 -4 -6 in fact your last bullit couldnt hit the earth if you aimed ( as well as most of the others.)

 

so what the point of stating a real weapon that, is made redundant by game mechanics.

 

bad mood, but hey its me

 

 

One way to achieve a more reasonable result would be to make it say 5 linked double autofire attacks. Then some kind of an ocv bonus, but...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

This is pointless

 

in champions, sorry hero 5th, firing 100 bulits at a target per second dosent increase your chances of hitting the target ( oddly enought every military in the world disagrees with this base assumption ) -2 -4 -6 in fact your last bullit couldnt hit the earth if you aimed ( as well as most of the others.)

 

so what the point of stating a real weapon that, is made redundant by game mechanics.

 

bad mood, but hey its me

 

It's not the real world that's at fault, it's just the way the Hero System works. The minigun exists in real life, and is used on helicopters (sometimes manned directly by a human being from a side mount), and it is a highly accurate weapon. If almost all the bullets missed, the military wouldn't use the weapon.

 

Now, if something exists in real life, you should be able to stat it in HERO. So, admittedly, 100 bullets per second IS redundant in HERO -- and does not accurately represent the weapon's performance. Therefore, I worked around the problem by applying the same principle used in Energy Blast: a single attack can be a stream of many particles. Therefore, I decided that I could represent groups of 5 bullets as a 4d6 RKA, and apply Reduced Penetration. I still made the Autofire 10 to show the fast RoF of this weapon.

 

Saying we shouldn't stat something because it can't be done in the most obvious way is simply silly. I stat what I want, and I try to be inventive and creative, while still adhering to the rules and reality as closely as reaonably possible.

 

Does that help you understand a little better?

[Kristopher]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Explained that way, the Reduced Penetration makes more sense.

 

It's like a pair of 2d6 "bullets" with every 4d6 hit, in terms of the BODY done.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

Explained that way, the Reduced Penetration makes more sense.

 

It's like a pair of 2d6 "bullets" with every 4d6 hit, in terms of the BODY done.

 

The reason I made it 2d6/ 2d6 instead of 1d6/ 1d6/ 1d6/ 1d6 (with a "2x Reduced penetration") (I assume the fifth bullet makes up for the Area of Effect) was because someone mentioned that miniguns are good at finding the "chinks" in armor due to their high rate of fire. So it's really a volley of five bullets, minus one, with only a single application of Reduced Penetration applied to the volley itself.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hard Target: Statting The Minigun

 

The recoil on those things are beyond belief you know, 240 lbs according to one source (and they may have low balled it). Makes it uncontrollable as a hand held weapon.

 

But it is fun...

 

How to do the damage is the thing.

 

Consider the following:

 

Barrel One: 2d6 RKA, Autofire 10.

Barrels two-five (virtual barrels to keep the rof correct, I think the original had six?): 2d6 RKA, linked to Barrel One

 

That would chain saw stuff nicely, but keep it from penetrating stuff it really shouldn't.

 

NICE!!!

 

I'm going to use this method for Gatling cannons from now on (either Linked or multiple weapons used in a MPA)