CU Laws

[Ken Solo]

In the Champions Universe book, in the chapter about government and laws pertaining to supers, there is a line detailing that Congress (or the Courts) has declared that entities not of human stock are not 'people' under United States law. Including intelligent aliens, undead, artificial intilligence, and others. Then it says that However, certain basic rights have been extended to any sentient being in the U.S.

Does anyone get a feeling of what these 'certain basic rights' might be?

I can see all sorts of problems for vampire hunters here.

Also if a supernatural entity (like a Spirit of Nature/Guardian of The Sacred Grove/ Lord of the Rings type Ent) is killed, does the legal system care?

Would the certain basic rights be like the rights being extended to illegal aliens (of the human kind) like drivers licenses and health care?

 

I'm not sure where to go with this and would like some suggestions.

Thanks.

[Ken Solo]

Re: CU Laws

 

really has no on thought about putting in to their game what "basic rights" congress would grant to " intelligent self willed" non humans on American territory? Since I don't know any gaming lawers, I need some help on this.

[MitchellS]

Re: CU Laws

 

I've never thought about it at all. Unless my game has a alien* PC I'm not going to worry about how the laws affect the character. I work under the basic assumption that it will work in the same manner as the comic books: alien gets arrested, alien goes to jail, alien breaks out of jail [by himself or with help], alien gets arrested again. That's all the detail I really need to know.

 

*= using the term alien to cover all the above mentioned groups.

[MitchellS]

Re: CU Laws

 

As for basic rights: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is all any of us are guaranteed in the US. It shouldn't be any different for an alien.

[Big Willy]

Re: CU Laws

 

A few thoughts:

 

As I understand it, US law already has provision for artificial persons to have rights - if they apply to corporations, I don't see why they wouldn't apply to androids, clones, golems etc.

 

Extraterrestrials would have, at best, the same trouble with the INS as any other visitor/immigrant. At worst, they'd have a whole heap of different agencies hunting them as a threat to national security. The rights they'd be accorded would surely depend where on the spectrum they fell.

 

Supernatural beings are a trickier call. I imagine there'd be a cases that turned on whether a given perp or victim could be proven to exist at all; and how do you prove murder if the victim has a track record of rising from the grave again and again?

 

On that point, if enough people came back from the dead, eventually I'd expect sweeping changes to inheritance law: the seven-year limit for declaring missing persons legally dead might well be extended to everyone, just in case.

 

As for basic rights: Life' date=' liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is all any of us are guaranteed in the US. It shouldn't be any different for an alien. [/quote']

 

I recall an argument over on the NGD about "unenumerated rights", where you might find some folks who'd disagree. Me, I plead diffidence.

[BcAugust]

Re: CU Laws

 

Hmm, this is interesting to me, given that one of my characters is an alien(Princess Cyrande of Malva). So far, the actual responses have been to do diplomatic immunity, exactly like you'd treat a person of another country. Though, it would also be interesting to see Ironclad's status, lawwise.

[Vanguard00]

Re: CU Laws

 

In the Champions Universe book, in the chapter about government and laws pertaining to supers, there is a line detailing that Congress (or the Courts) has declared that entities not of human stock are not 'people' under United States law. Including intelligent aliens, undead, artificial intilligence, and others. Then it says that However, certain basic rights have been extended to any sentient being in the U.S.

Does anyone get a feeling of what these 'certain basic rights' might be?

It might be easier to relate to when you consider that citizenship really only guarantees a few things: the right to vote, the right to hold (at least some) public office, and the right to enter the country. Everything else is subjective. Thus, noncitizens (which would include 'aliens' and all the subclassifications of non-human beings) can't vote, can't hold office (well, some) and can't be guaranteed the right to enter the country. They are not granted the same provisions of criminal and civil law, but are still considered 'people' when it comes to the right to live free from harm and harassment. You'll just have to wing it, I'm thinkin', but try and think of aliens as visitors from another country.

 

Undead...well, I'd probably not recognize them as people per se. They lost all their rights when they died, and since it's not like they came back to life (which is what 'undead' means) they don't really have any rights. A fully cognizant vampire by the truest definition of the word is still nothing but a reanimated corpse.

 

Artificial Intelligences would cause the most problems, I think, because then you get into all sorts of definitions of what constitutes "intelligence" and being "alive". An AI might be seen as property by some, an abomination by others, and a threat to humanity by yet others. This classification would be the hardest to pin down, in my estimation.

I can see all sorts of problems for vampire hunters here.

No more so than bounty hunters, IMO.

Also if a supernatural entity (like a Spirit of Nature/Guardian of The Sacred Grove/ Lord of the Rings type Ent) is killed, does the legal system care?

Why wouldn't they? The degree of caring might vary, of course, and the government might assign a pair of intrepid Park Rangers to discover what has been killing Ents, or a Mulder'n'Scully type of federal agent. If, however, the Ents had already been designated as intelligent beings by the government, then they'd be almost duty-bound to discover what had happened. There are always activist groups eager to raise a stink over something, and this would likely qualify. You'd have every pagan, wiccan and pseudo-druid yelling until the government (local, state or federal) did SOMEthing.

Would the certain basic rights be like the rights being extended to illegal aliens (of the human kind) like drivers licenses and health care?

That's a political discussion I don't want to get into (as I don't believe illegal aliens of any sort should have drivers licenses or subsidized health care), but it would/could mirror whatever form of government you so choose. In short, it's up to you.

[Vanguard00]

Re: CU Laws

 

Something else I just thought of: regardless of what rights you grant aliens, AIs and the like, remember that part of the reason we treat noncitizens so well is that there is always some form of government behind them. Tourists, visitors and even illegal aliens (of the human variety) have a national government at least moderately willing to support their rights. So it’s sort of a courtesy thing—we treat your people nice, you treat our people nice.

 

Aliens and undead and whatever else you have in mind might not have that support, so there’s no incentive for our federal government to grant them any rights whatsoever, beyond common decency and courtesy (which might be in short supply, depending on your campaign).

[steriaca]

Re: CU Laws

 

Aliens and undead and whatever else you have in mind might not have that support' date=' so there’s no incentive for our federal government to grant them any rights whatsoever, beyond common decency and courtesy (which might be in short supply, depending on your campaign).[/quote']

 

Well, aliens from space might be granted the same rights as normal illegal imagrets if we know about the planet thay come from, and have some sort of relations with the planet. As for undead, thay have no true rights, but might be granted some on a case by case basices (depending on type and dispostion...a vampier might be alowed to live in piece is all he drunk was blood bags filled with 'expiered' blood, while a zombie might be clasified as property, and be under property rights of the mystic who raised it from the dead, as long as it need no food).

 

With Meckanon around, I doubt that the same can not be said about AI robots and machiens. It would be to easy for Meckanon to alter there programing and unleash the reprogramed machiens to kill humans by the thousands. So an AI would also be covered by property laws.

[Vanguard00]

Re: CU Laws

 

Well' date=' aliens from space might be granted the same rights as normal illegal imagrets if we know about the planet thay come from, and have some sort of relations with the planet. As for undead, thay have no true rights, but might be granted some on a case by case basices (depending on type and dispostion...a vampier might be alowed to live in piece is all he drunk was blood bags filled with 'expiered' blood, while a zombie might be clasified as property, and be under property rights of the mystic who raised it from the dead, as long as it need no food).[/quote']

Most of the above I’ve said myself, so I’m in agreement. The part about zombies being property, however, directly contradicts the assumption that they have any rights at all. Either they’re classified as property or they’re classified as sentient beings; with the US laws against slavery they can’t be both.

 

With Meckanon around, I doubt that the same can not be said about AI robots and machiens. It would be to easy for Meckanon to alter there programing and unleash the reprogramed machiens to kill humans by the thousands. So an AI would also be covered by property laws.

Same thing applies: if the AIs are property they are not sentient and are accorded no special rights by law. If they are viewed as sentient being then they cannot be considered property.

 

It is also unlikely that any government would make official policy based on the threat of a supervillain retaliation. In short, the US government isn’t going to recognize AIs as sentient simply to appease Mechanon, nor would they necessarily prevent the recognition of such because they’re afraid of what Mechanon might do.

 

Again, though, a lot of the issue will be based on the type of campaign being run, the tone of the government in said campaign, and similar plot points. Ultimately it’s going to be up to the GM.

[Chuckg]

Re: CU Laws

 

Bc -- Well, let's not forget that the reason the State Department gave your character Cyrande diplomatic immunity is because you're not only an alien, you're the daughter of your homeworld's head of state...

 

... and your homeworld is not only reputed to be one of the most technologically advanced in the known galaxy, but has a rather infamous member of its gladiatorial cadre already walking the Earth. (They don't know yet whether or not Cyrande's social status back home means that she could successfully give Firewing orders, or whether he'd take offense or not if she were offered /lese-majeste/... but they're definitely not in any hurry to find out.)

 

"Crown Princess of Malva" cost you a lot in Perk points, but you can't complain it hasn't given back a lot of advantage.

[CBikle]

Re: CU Laws

 

I think that passage was included so that GMs could run scenarios that involved the government/corporation/whatever laying legal claim to an E.T./robot/clone/etc.

 

I think it was just a backdoor for plot devices.

[Polaris]

Re: CU Laws

 

Greetings,

 

The US Constitution refers to a class of people when it discusses certain rights, I would say that those rights would be restricted.

 

Look through a copy of the Constitution and note which rights are guaranteed to "the people" as opposed to people or persons. When it specifies 'the' people, it refers to a specific class of people. In the preamble, 'the people' is defined as being those of the US (not aliens, and if they are artificial, then they would not have been born in the US and therefore could also be excluded from this class).

 

The courts could easily consider anyone not fitting into the class of "the people" as not having those rights.

 

Well, that is at least one way to do it...

 

Polaris

[SleepyDrug]

Re: CU Laws

 

I haven't seen the 5th Ed. version yet. But in 4th, this was dealt with in depth in Dark Champions. I'd wager that between DC 5th and Champions Universe all your answers shall be found.

 

From Dark Champions 4th ed:

 

....Congress passed the Android, Artificial Intelligence, and Alien Life-Form Rights Act of 1977...grants civil rights to all "sentient beings" who can prove that they are independent and free-willed...

[transmetahuman]

Re: CU Laws

 

Just gotta nit-pick here - it's a pet peeve when people use "sentient" (which ants and spiders are) when they mean "sapient".

 

sen·tience

n : The ability to perceive one's environment with the senses.

 

sapience

n : The ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.

 

Sorry...

[Vanguard00]

Re: CU Laws

 

Just gotta nit-pick here - it's a pet peeve when people use "sentient" (which ants and spiders are) when they mean "sapient".

 

sen·tience

n : The ability to perceive one's environment with the senses.

 

sapience

n : The ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.

 

Sorry...

Though the two terms may indeed overlap in description especially as applied to the above discussion, you're right. I should've used 'sapient' instead of 'sentient' throughout most of my post. I dummied-down without even thinkin' about it and I should've known better.