open door spell

[swobeas]

Heya!

 

I have just been thinking of how to design a adventurer-classic: the open door spell.

 

My fist thought goes in the direction of transform.

cosmetic transform (locked door into unlocked door) or do you think that this is already a minor transform?

 

How do you do this classic spell

[Super Squirrel]

Re: open door spell

 

There are a couple of ways to do that.

 

Minor Transform 4d6, Locked Door to Unlocked Door could to the trick.

 

Also you could do it as Lockpicking 23- (31 Active Points) plus Telekenisis (2 STR) (3 Active Points)

 

I put the Tranform at 4d6 to give it reasonable control over magical doors and doors of unusual material but it isn't as good as the Skill Power version. The telekenisis is necessary to bypass having picks and because it prevents lock based traps from affecting the caster.

[Markdoc]

Re: open door spell

 

The other possibility is simply tunneling (leave passage open behind or close as you like) limited for use only on doors. You'd need to buy enough to go through extra DEF - otherwise you could small wooden doors but not steel ones.

 

The special effect is simply that the door opens. If you choose to close the door, it is still locked after you have gone through.

 

cheers, Mark

[Basil]

Re: open door spell

 

If what you want is specifically an unlocked door, the Transform method is the most obvious. Lockpicking + TK is another good method.

 

If what you want is getting to the other side of the door, then Tunnelling works. So does Teleportation 1 Hex, Increased Mass (x16), Only From One Side Of A Door To The Other (-1 1/2) (22 Active Points; Real Cost 9) plus one Fixed Location, defined as one hex straight ahead (1 point). Total cost: 10 points.

 

The problem of Teleporting into solid object(s) is left as an exercise for the fiendish GM.

[Curufea]

Re: open door spell

 

Teleportation could be modified like the FTL drives in Star Hero - Must cross intervening space (I think it's a -1/2 limitation). You could define the SFX as "appearing to open and close the door"

[Super Squirrel]

Re: open door spell

 

I'll be honest why I don't like the Teleportation or Tunnelling version.

 

First, the door itself could be trapped for when it opens. Both "bypass" the actual opening of the door. Though of course a GM could rule otherwise.

 

Second, just because you want to open the door, doesn't mean you want to step inside the room. Both power constructs mentioned are Movement based powers and thus, require physical movement into the room.

[LordGhee]

Re: open door spell

 

Great minds think alike, I was trying to figure out an open door effect for a Jedi which a wizard could use also.

 

when the "spell is used the door opens and then closes' behind the player"

 

 

now TK if used would need to be indirect, and a way to sense the lock or handle ect.

 

I with Super Squirrel in that telaport and tunnelling means movement. unless you buy range on the tunneling (this could be a wombat power).

 

the skill lockpicking you need to get tools ect on the lock mechanism unless you by the tk fine ect.

 

I was thinking of constructing a transform, but how much body to transform to open the door (are bigger doors have more body? do lock doors have more body?)

 

this got me thinking what is a wizard lock?

[Markdoc]

Re: open door spell

 

I was thinking of constructing a transform' date=' but how much body to transform to open the door (are bigger doors have more body? do lock doors have more body?)[/quote']

 

There are as noted, several ways to do it - each has its failings. Yes, bigger doors have more body (as do steel ones, probably) so transform will open small, wooden doors more easily than large brass-bound ones.

 

TK either requires additionally the lockpicking skill and fine manipulation - or simply uses brute force to smash the door open. The former of course won't open magically barred doors (or even conventionally locked doors that don't have a keyhole on your side) and the latter is expensive (and also a little crude ) I don't think you need indirect unless you are trying to open a door which isn't more or less right in front of you.

 

The problems with movement-based powers have already been noted. One point though - with tunnelling there is nothing that says you have to move *through* an opened hex. You just need to be *in* the hex and several characters published use exactly this for the ninja hide-in-the-dirt trick. So you could open a door (unless it was more than 2 metres thick) and look through. Still, it might not be what you want.

 

As for wizard lock, the standard version is usualy just TK, to hold the door closed. TK with lockpicking won't help there, but brute-force TK will - at that point, it just becomes a question of who has the most oomph.

 

cheers, Mark

[swobeas]

Re: open door spell

 

Reading your posts started my mind spinning and now I am thinking of not transforming the door, but just transform the lock into an open one.

Of course there would be different heavy locks with a different ratio for BODY but that could reflect the fact that opening a lock isn't always the same

 

What I don't like about the movement powers is, that it would leave a closed door behind.

 

If the mage should get on the other side while the door stays locked, he could also buy a limited form of desolification then...

[Legendsmiths]

Re: open door spell

 

Tunneling 1" through 3 DEF material, Fill In, Ranged (+1/2), UAA (+1) (52 Active Points); Restricted Path (-1), OIF (Door of Opportunity; -1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4); Cost 19 Points

 

That will get through any door. Metal or Stone doors would require a more powerful version.

 

Metaphysically, what is the reason a spell can just "open a locked door"? Magically turning the knob makes sense, pulling makes sense, but subtle arbitrary manipulations of a lock mechanism does not. I'd say either force the door open or bashi it down. A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such, but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement. If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

Second' date=' just because you want to open the door, doesn't mean you want to step inside the room. Both power constructs mentioned are Movement based powers and thus, require physical movement into the room.[/quote']

 

Oooh, good point.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

this got me thinking what is a wizard lock?

 

That's really a question that needs to be answered before one tries to create a spell to "open" such a lock. If a wizard lock is nothing more than TK on the door (or an Entangle with weird modifiers) to keep it closed, then an "open door" spell would need to be able to break through that -- or dispel it.

 

In a setting where spells that lock and unlock doors (chests, etc.) are commonly known, chances are that there would be at least two types of "open door" spells: one that magically picks the lock, slides the bar on the other side, and so forth; and another, which magically unravels whatever magic might be holding the door closed. TK + lockpicking is the most straightforward way to approximate the formar effect. Dispel or Suppress would probably be the best way to approximate the latter (that way you do not need to know exactly what effect was used to wizardly-lock the door).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: open door spell

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Knock

 

A damage causing variant that just blows the door up instead:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Destructive%20Knock

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Improved%20Destructive%20Knock

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Superior%20Destructive%20Knock

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Wizardry#Supreme%20Destructive%20Knock

 

 

You could also just use TK with enough STR to force a lock.

[prestidigitator]

Re: open door spell

 

A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such' date=' but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement. If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.[/quote']

I think that is why most such spells tend to have Lockpicking built-in, rather than simply conveying a bonus. It means the wizard does not actually need to know how to pick locks (he or she does not necessarily have the skill outside the use of the spell).

 

I like this version of a Wizard Lock:

Transform: 3d6 Major, door to wall, heals back at 1 Body/day (equivalent to a 30 Rec); Invisible Power Effects: all but magical senses, hides effect (+3/2); Limited Target: door (-2);

That's the uber-powered version.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: open door spell

 

Metaphysically, what is the reason a spell can just "open a locked door"? Magically turning the knob makes sense, pulling makes sense, but subtle arbitrary manipulations of a lock mechanism does not. I'd say either force the door open or bashi it down.

 

A skilled locksmith could possibly use magic to manipulate the tumblers and such, but magic really then is just an enabling tool and not a bonus/enhancement.

 

If a spell can just unlock and open a door without any knowledge requirement on the wizard, that is more like a wish spell than anything, in which case transform or extra dimensional movement (to a place where the door is open) is the way to go.

 

Not sure what your issue is; the Spell can just grant Lockpicking rather than a bonus to Lockpicking.

 

And don't get me started on my standard "EDM is not an Alter Reality Power" rant. It's not pretty.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: open door spell

 

Whew! That was close!

 

Hey guys. I just got here from another dimension where Killer Shrike was going on a rant about EDM...

[TheTemplar]

Re: open door spell

 

I'd have to agree that conferring the Lockpicking Skill via the spell is the best way to simulate "Knock" from DnD... IF that's what you're trying to do. The real inherent benefit there is that it not only would work on doors, but also on locked chests, or any other device with a lock.

 

The Transform method would work as mentioned (assuming the transform is defined Locked lock into Unlocked lock,) locks w/ more body COULD negate the spell, whereas by granting the Lockpicking skill (just for the duration of the spell, which I would presume to be instant.. perhaps w/ a small area effect to unlock all locks within x Hexes of the caster) then you could just apply whatever modifiers are appropriate for the locks to the Lockpicking roll, as you would if a thief PC were trying to pick them open.

 

Personally, I'd go w/ Lockpicking, but I think both would suit your end purposes.. If I'm understanding your end purposes correctly.

[swobeas]

Re: open door spell

 

thx for your input guys, I have a lot of ideas how to do the spell now

[LordGhee]

Re: open door spell

 

I got a problem with the lockpicking skill way,

 

example

 

wizard: I cast lockpicking skill spell.

gm: (grinning)

fighter: great --- where your tools

Wizard: tools?

gm: (grinning)

fighter: yea you need tools to lockpick a door.

 

a little time later

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: alright using the sliverware and wire I have tools now so I . . . . .

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: the door is just a simple metal door with a handle and no key hole . . .

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: so I can not pick the lock cause I can not get to the lock, so with this skill . . .

gm: (grinning) you know for certain that you cannot open this door from this side.

Wizard; I blow the door. . .

 

A spell that cast a skill gives you the skill, not the tools or the ablity the access what you need to do, the skill does not open the door, the use of the skill opens the door.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: open door spell

 

I havent looked at this in a while and don't have my books available, but IIRC you take a (large) skill penalty for not using tools and a sufficiently high Lockpicking roll can overcome it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

gm: (grinning)

 

Another great example of why some people should not be allowed to GM.

 

Edit:

 

Just to clarify, I am not referring to a GM exercising their privilege of vetoing a "GM's option" power. I am referring to a GM who has apparently allowed a player to go to the time and trouble of creating a spell designed for a specific purpose, but who knows all the while that they intend to nerf that spell and make it useless, and then takes pleasure in the fact that they have done so. That's a bad GM. (Cue the peanut gallery, who always criticize me for calling a spade a spade.)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: open door spell

 

I got a problem with the lockpicking skill way,

 

example

 

wizard: I cast lockpicking skill spell.

gm: (grinning)

fighter: great --- where your tools

Wizard: tools?

gm: (grinning)

fighter: yea you need tools to lockpick a door.

 

a little time later

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: alright using the sliverware and wire I have tools now so I . . . . .

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: the door is just a simple metal door with a handle and no key hole . . .

gm: (grinning)

Wizard: so I can not pick the lock cause I can not get to the lock, so with this skill . . .

gm: (grinning) you know for certain that you cannot open this door from this side.

Wizard; I blow the door. . .

 

A spell that cast a skill gives you the skill, not the tools or the ablity the access what you need to do, the skill does not open the door, the use of the skill opens the door.

Lockpicking. Page 64 of Fifth Revised:

Characters must have lockpicks or other equipment to use Lockpicking (or, at the GM's option, use an appropriate Power, such as Telekinesis).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: open door spell

 

Yeah, Super Squirrel has it. I would consider Lockpicking as a Power granted by a Spell to be "an appropriate Power".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: open door spell

 

Just to clarify' date=' I am not referring to a GM exercising their privilege of vetoing a "GM's option" power. I am referring to a GM who has apparently allowed a player to go to the time and trouble of creating a spell designed for a specific purpose, but who knows all the while that they intend to nerf that spell and make it useless, and then takes pleasure in the fact that they have done so. That's a bad GM. (Cue the peanut gallery, who always criticize me for calling a spade a spade.)[/quote']

 

This is bang on. If you're going to disallow the ability, disallow it up front or explain what the player could purchase to get the job done.

 

Don't let them (or lead them on to) spend points on an ability that you're just going to render inert anyway.

 

It's funny how quick we often are to note that a limitation that's not limiting saves no points and a disadvantage that does not disadvantage the character is worth nothing, but how slowly we apply the corollary that a character should not be required, or perhaps even allowed, to pay points for an ability which is worthless.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: open door spell

 

For comparison, my own "journeyman level" door-opening spell:

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic:Spell_-_Access_Of_The_Adept

 

(The "master level" and "archmage level" spells are better.)