Vehicle DEX

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Interesting... I suppose I ought to pick up a set too, then.

 

I didn't think they'd have such an "outdated" thing stocked. Odd.

 

I didn't see it when I looked, saw a Champions 2nd Edition set. Maybe I'm clueless.

 

Here's a ebay link to the book I'm speaking of:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Champions-RPG-Champions-II-accessory_W0QQitemZ3181769707QQcategoryZ2548QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

 

It really is a much improved way of building vehicles. Now that I've worked out the basics of damage I may go back to using it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I think people have lost sight of these facts:

• The Dex of a vehicle (and the Speed in a combat sense) are maximums. They indicate that as good a driver or pilot as you might be, you just can't push an old clunker with lousy steering and a crumby engine to have very good performance. EDIT: this is why the vehicle tables list adjustments to CV, not a final CV; the latter can only be calculated once you know the driver/pilot's Dex.
  
• You can drive or pilot a vehicle at a higher Speed than your own as long as you don't exceed its Speed. When the vehicle has a Phase but you do not, you just cannot make course corrections and your movement is considered Non-Combat even at Combat, "velocities."

I play a little loosely with the, "cannot make course corrections." I allow a constant radius of curvature for the path of the vehicle, which means if you ended your Phase in a turn, you can continue through that turn on the vehicle's extra Phases. I also allow the vehicle to be straightened out for free, but nothing else (meaning you can either keep going at the current turn rate, or let the controls snap back to a neutral position which usually--for stable vehicles but possibly not combat aircraft and such--means, "driving/flying straight and level"). This means you had better decellerate and act only on your Phases if you are going into a blind or tricky turn; screw up and you're probably going to either crash or have to Abort your next Phase to maneuver.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I think people have lost sight of these facts:

• [*]The Dex of a vehicle (and the Speed in a combat sense) are maximums. They indicate that as good a driver or pilot as you might be, you just can't push an old clunker with lousy steering and a crumby engine to have very good performance. EDIT: this is why the vehicle tables list adjustments to CV, not a final CV; the latter can only be calculated once you know the driver/pilot's Dex.

 

Likewise a crappy pilot can't climb into fighter jet and expect it to react all that well to him.

 

Vehicles go on whichever DEX is LOWER, pilot's or vehicles.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Personaly, I like the current vehicles rules.

 

*ducks*

 

Hey, stop throwing fruit! Let me explain...

 

In general, I run vehicles combat on a per turn basis. The DEX of the vehicle determines its DCV (with the possibility of adding more DCV based on relative velocity) and the SPD of the vehicle determining how often it can be maneuvered within that turn.

 

I only worry about "Phases" if the vehicles/characters are attacking one another, in which case attacks are handled in the normal fashion based on SPD. I only worry about the movement within the Turn in such cases as someone attempting to close the distance for a ram or melee attack or some such.

 

The one exception is when Mecha are involved. If the Mecha are on the ground, or are locked in Hand to Hand combat, I resolve the Turn as I would for normal characters (cause lets face it...mecha are merely really big characters) but if they are flying at high speeds, I resolve combat using the Dogfighting rules.

 

I really like the Dogfighting rules. Apparently, so did R-Talsorian games, since they adapted them for use in Mekton Zeta (see Mekton Z+ for their dogfighting rules. They are very similar to Heros)

[Kirby]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

On the bright side you have the option to use the velocity based DCV table (personally I'd use a relative velocity based table).

Really? Where is that? (My wife's sleeping by my book and I don't want to wake her from her nap. And I am a bit lazy. )

[Kirby]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I'm all right with character "top speed" in Inches/Turn depending upon SPD, but I simply can't accept it with vehicles. It's ludicrous.

This issue was first brought up in "Space Balls." Surely you remember Ludicrous SPD?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

This issue was first brought up in "Space Balls." Surely you remember Ludicrous SPD?

 

"They've gone plaide!"

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Actually I discovered on pg. 471-472 of 5ER, it talks about vehicle SPD and pilot SPD. Say a jet fighter has a SPD of 4, and the pilot has a SPD of 3 (the SPD most military jet pilots would have). You have two options:

 

A.) Voluntarily lower the vehicle's SPD (and thus, Inches/ Turn) to match your own. (Unrealistic).

 

B.) Allow the vehicle to move at SPD 4. That means the pilot shares only one of its four Phases. That means for three Phases, the vehicle moves straight ahead at 1/2 DCV, with no possibility of turning.

 

Wow. I'm glad they got THAT covered.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Actually I discovered on pg. 471-472 of 5ER, it talks about vehicle SPD and pilot SPD. Say a jet fighter has a SPD of 4, and the pilot has a SPD of 3 (the SPD most military jet pilots would have). You have two options:

 

A.) Voluntarily lower the vehicle's SPD (and thus, Inches/ Turn) to match your own. (Unrealistic).

 

B.) Allow the vehicle to move at SPD 4. That means the pilot shares only one of its four Phases. That means for three Phases, the vehicle moves straight ahead at 1/2 DCV, with no possibility of turning.

 

Wow. I'm glad they got THAT covered.

 

While I thnk the idea behind that ruling is sound ... the execution is less than spectacular.

 

You could either pilot the vehicle to your capability by moving it at the same SPD. or...

 

The vehicle moves at SPD4, the pilot SPD3.

On the pilot's phases he may do two of the following: adjust speed, adjust heading, fire, some other vehicle action. However - any adjustments to the vehicles Vector (speed, turning, etc...) do not take effect until the Vehicle's Phases.

On the Vehicles phases - It's heading adjusts to the Pilot's commands from a previous phase. If none it continues in the previous Vector (if in a turn it continues to turn, or dive, slow down, or speed up (to maximum velocity).

 

A good way to represent a vehicle that is more repsonsive than the pilot.

 

If the pilot is faster than the vehicle .. well, he just got into a machine that cant' keep up with him. The vehicle will only adjust its Vector on phases it goes on (or both the vehicle and pilot go on). The pilot may, while waiting for his slow chunk of metal to react, do other things like: fire weapons, check systems, eat lunch, compose sonata's, wonder why the ground is getting so damn close.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

While I thnk the idea behind that ruling is sound ... the execution is less than spectacular.

 

It's a conflict of the way the system works, not a designer's flaw, true enough. It's better than the other ways I've thought of to handle it.

 

The vehicle moves at SPD4, the pilot SPD3.

On the pilot's phases he may do two of the following: adjust speed, adjust heading, fire, some other vehicle action. However - any adjustments to the vehicles Vector (speed, turning, etc...) do not take effect until the Vehicle's Phases.

On the Vehicles phases - It's heading adjusts to the Pilot's commands from a previous phase. If none it continues in the previous Vector (if in a turn it continues to turn, or dive, slow down, or speed up (to maximum velocity).

 

That's a House Rule™, of course; officially, you can only turn, accelerate or decelerate if the vehicle is moving during the Phase in which you make an adjustment. And it's hard to juggle, I think... I mean, if commands entered by the character don't take place until the vehicle's next Phase, you might as well let the character act on that Phase, anyway (think about it -- yes, there's a little more to it than that, but still).

 

Also, consider this: why should all SPD 3 characters be punished simply because a machine is responsive enough for a SPD 4 character to take full advantage of? In terms of top speed, anyway? (You could just buy more movement and have it be SPD 3). I think I will make a special case for vehicles, allowing an extra Phase or two worth of Movement to be evenly distributed into the reduced Phases of a character with a lower SPD than the vehicle. Just to keep the top possible speed consistent (but note he still only gets to turn at his reduced rate -- which at top speed....) And of course, I'd have to combine that with the VF rules.

 

If the pilot is faster than the vehicle .. well' date=' he just got into a machine that cant' keep up with him. The vehicle will only adjust its Vector on phases it goes on (or both the vehicle and pilot go on). The pilot may, while waiting for his slow chunk of metal to react, do other things like: fire weapons, check systems, eat lunch, compose sonata's, wonder why the ground is getting so damn close.[/quote']

 

That's not a problem. A faster pilot adjusting to a slower machine makes plenty of sense.

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Really? Where is that? (My wife's sleeping by my book and I don't want to wake her from her nap. And I am a bit lazy. )

 

I've been away from the keyboard for a while, so sorry if this is late...

 

It's on page 364 5th revised.

 

Back in the days of Champions II, this was the base DCV of a vehicle, the driver could get a dodge bonus if he made is combat driving/piloting.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

It's a conflict of the way the system works, not a designer's flaw, true enough. It's better than the other ways I've thought of to handle it.

 

 

 

That's a House Ruleâ„¢, of course; officially, you can only turn, accelerate or decelerate if the vehicle is moving during the Phase in which you make an adjustment. And it's hard to juggle, I think... I mean, if commands entered by the character don't take place until the vehicle's next Phase, you might as well let the character act on that Phase, anyway (think about it -- yes, there's a little more to it than that, but still).

Definately a House Rule, possibly even a bad Kludge. I'd have to try it out to see if has any merit at all.

 

Also' date=' consider this: why should all SPD 3 characters be punished simply because a machine is responsive enough for a SPD 4 character to take full advantage of? In terms of top speed, anyway? (You could just buy more movement and have it be SPD 3). I think I will make a special case for vehicles, allowing an extra Phase or two worth of Movement to be evenly distributed into the reduced Phases of a character with a lower SPD than the vehicle. Just to keep the top possible speed consistent (but note he still only gets to turn at his reduced rate -- which at top speed....) And of course, I'd have to combine that with the VF rules.[/quote']

I thought about this...

 

came to this conclusion:

 

Never Drive Faster Than You Can See. If you don't have the reaction ability/timing to work a vehicle at 200MPH you shouldn't be driving that fast anyway. Conceivably a SPD3 character doesn't have the ability to get a SPD4 vehicle to top velocity and still maintain control of it in any useful manner.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

While I thnk the idea behind that ruling is sound ... the execution is less than spectacular.

 

You could either pilot the vehicle to your capability by moving it at the same SPD. or...

 

The vehicle moves at SPD4, the pilot SPD3.

On the pilot's phases he may do two of the following: adjust speed, adjust heading, fire, some other vehicle action. However - any adjustments to the vehicles Vector (speed, turning, etc...) do not take effect until the Vehicle's Phases.

On the Vehicles phases - It's heading adjusts to the Pilot's commands from a previous phase. If none it continues in the previous Vector (if in a turn it continues to turn, or dive, slow down, or speed up (to maximum velocity).

 

A good way to represent a vehicle that is more repsonsive than the pilot.

 

If the pilot is faster than the vehicle .. well, he just got into a machine that cant' keep up with him. The vehicle will only adjust its Vector on phases it goes on (or both the vehicle and pilot go on). The pilot may, while waiting for his slow chunk of metal to react, do other things like: fire weapons, check systems, eat lunch, compose sonata's, wonder why the ground is getting so damn close.

 

Uhm,

 

is this not the way that it's currently written? Because this is pretty much how we've always played it. Not as a House Rule or anything, but because we thought that was official........

 

I ask because there's another thread soliciting 'corrections' to vehicle movement, so I'm beginning to think that there is a mistake on our end.....

[Talon]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

The problem I have with the vehicle SPD rules is that they seem completely alien to both the real world and the source literature. I'm not aware of any instances where a vehicle just kept going straight because the driver wasn't nimble/fast enough. I've driven sports cars, I'm SPD 3 if I'm optimistic, but I wasn't holding Phases in order to make turns at the right time. It just doesn't work that way.

 

If I were looking to keep to the current rules mindset, I would create a "Pilot Vehicle" maneuver that drivers can executes. This allows them to move the vehicle on each of its Phases regardless of which of their SPDs is higher. (A detailed version would have a 1/2 Phase version with a CV and Combat Driving penalty for those making drive-by shootings or making cell phone calls while driving.) A low SPD character could drive a high SPD vehicle fine, which IMO is how it should be.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I have a question:

 

Are you guys using Hex maps to plot out your vehicle chases?

 

If so, you must have a fargin HUGE map, because none of the one's I've seen would be sufficient to keep track of a high speed chase. Especially with the sort of vehcles that PC's and Villians tend to get ahold of. (To quote "The Bandit": I'm gonna need a car. A fast car. Faster than that.)

 

If you aren't using mapped chases, then why would you even need to keep track of the vehicles phases? Simply keep track of the vehicles velocities in relation to one another to see if the lead vehicle opens the distance or looses ground. Have the PC's and villians make a few Combat Driving or Piloting rolls to make sure they don't wipe out.

 

I simply describe the action as its happening. Give bonuses and penalties based on whats going on and the terrain/obstacles the vehicles encounter. If the PC's wish to attack during a turn, I allow them a number of attacks equal to their SPD (well, the Driver needs to use his phases to keep control of the vehicle..passengers may attack at their leisure) and the villians most certainly will respond (or most often, start attacking without provocation)

 

A vehicles per turn movement is what I base everything on...who can catch who. The control roll penalties etc (if a vehicle is moving at extreme high speed and tries to dodge an obstacle, it gets a big penalty based on its turn mode)

 

Of course, thats for non-mapped vehicle action. Mapped action would probably need to be broken down into Phases, but I use non-mapped, so I feel no need to resolve it exactly as I resolve character combat.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

The mapping is easy;

 

it's borrowed from several old tactical games.

 

Examine the movement of all vehicles in play. Get the lowest common denominator and divide everyone by that amount. (sometimes twice that amount, if the differences are great.)

 

For example, if one vehicle has 20 inches of flight and one has 40, divide by 20. The slowest vehicle then moves one inch; the other moves 2.

 

But it's all relative. Even like this, you run into cases where a map just won't work.

 

Old plastic-box edition Car Wars road sections work great, too-- endless loops of highway.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Uhm,

 

is this not the way that it's currently written? Because this is pretty much how we've always played it. Not as a House Rule or anything, but because we thought that was official........

 

I ask because there's another thread soliciting 'corrections' to vehicle movement, so I'm beginning to think that there is a mistake on our end.....

Official ruling is:

Use whichever SPD and DEX are lowest. SPD4 Vehicle + SPD3 Pilot = SPD3. DEX20 Vehicle + DEX30 Pilot = DEX20. FRED pg321, don't know 5ER pg. Which is everyone's contention with the system - lowering a Vehicles SPD effectively lower's its maximum possible Velocity. But certainly makes the mechanics easier to handle.

 

And then there's Mounted Movement ... which is different altogether... but probably modeled better. At least I think so.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Official ruling is:

Use whichever SPD and DEX are lowest. SPD4 Vehicle + SPD3 Pilot = SPD3. DEX20 Vehicle + DEX30 Pilot = DEX20. FRED pg321, don't know 5ER

 

Ugh.

 

No wonder people are griping......

 

Thanks, G-A.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I thought about this...

 

came to this conclusion:

 

Never Drive Faster Than You Can See. If you don't have the reaction ability/timing to work a vehicle at 200MPH you shouldn't be driving that fast anyway. Conceivably a SPD3 character doesn't have the ability to get a SPD4 vehicle to top velocity and still maintain control of it in any useful manner.

 

There's a severe problem with this assumption, and that is that total Movement in Inches/ Turn is not dependent upon SPD. I can have a skateboard with SPD 4 that moves a total of 80"/ Turn, max, and a Piper Cub that moves at SPD 2 that goes at 300"/ Turn, average. Your suggestion is a good one... but it makes no sense to base how fast you can drive a vehicle on your personal SPD, because of the reason I just mentioned.

 

ESPECIALLY where spacecraft are concerned, and especially where gritty rules are concerned (i.e., thrust is measured in Inches per Turn per Turn, or Inches/ Turn^2). For example, a spacecraft with 6000"/ Turn of Flight (which is about 10 G-forces -- but current G-force suits today can allow a human to handle that much acceleration) will go 6000" the first Turn, 12,000"/ Turn the third Turn, 18,000"/ Turn the second turn, etcetera.

 

In short, I do not believe SPD is a good indication that a vehicle is "too fast" for a character. Anyone with any level of reflexes can adjust to driving a high speed vehicle, especially with a TF and CERTAINLY with Combat Piloting.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I have a question:

 

Are you guys using Hex maps to plot out your vehicle chases?

 

One thing I use for Science Fiction is an adapated form of the GURPS space combat rules, whihc, by the way, are narrative, not tactical in nature and quite a pleasure to use (but they are VERY contrived and un-Hero like, so approach with caution). I will also run mapped space combats, but usually only for important one-on-one battles. It just depends.

 

For vehicle chases/ combat, I narrate until the vehicles in question draw close to one another (or not, if the pursued party outruns the pursuer), then I place them on an ad-hoc map and allow combat/ whatever to proceed, usually with 5" or 10" hexes... though I will go to 1" if necessary (and sometimes it is).

 

Personally, I like having tactical, mapped scenarios in my games. I'm a big fan of board game tactics, and I like to integrate that into my roleplaying games... and to do that with vehicles, one needs a solid, semi-believable (in my case) set of rules.

[Talon]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Are you guys using Hex maps to plot out your vehicle chases?

 

...

 

If you aren't using mapped chases, then why would you even need to keep track of the vehicles phases? Simply keep track of the vehicles velocities in relation to one another to see if the lead vehicle opens the distance or looses ground. Have the PC's and villians make a few Combat Driving or Piloting rolls to make sure they don't wipe out.

 

For car chases I don't use a hex map -- but for naval battles or chases I sometimes do, and for space combat I sometimes do, and for vehicle vs. character combat I usually do.

 

The point is that Vehicle combat rules should be specific (and consistent) enough that you can use them well with a hex map...it's easy to abstract the rules if you don't want to, but it's a lot harder to make up rules if you do.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

There's a severe problem with this assumption, and that is that total Movement in Inches/ Turn is not dependent upon SPD. I can have a skateboard with SPD 4 that moves a total of 80"/ Turn, max, and a Piper Cub that moves at SPD 2 that goes at 300"/ Turn, average. Your suggestion is a good one... but it makes no sense to base how fast you can drive a vehicle on your personal SPD, because of the reason I just mentioned.

 

ESPECIALLY where spacecraft are concerned, and especially where gritty rules are concerned (i.e., thrust is measured in Inches per Turn per Turn, or Inches/ Turn^2). For example, a spacecraft with 6000"/ Turn of Flight (which is about 10 G-forces -- but current G-force suits today can allow a human to handle that much acceleration) will go 6000" the first Turn, 12,000"/ Turn the third Turn, 18,000"/ Turn the second turn, etcetera.

 

In short, I do not believe SPD is a good indication that a vehicle is "too fast" for a character. Anyone with any level of reflexes can adjust to driving a high speed vehicle, especially with a TF and CERTAINLY with Combat Piloting.

No Vehicle Combat Rules will work 'properly' as long as you are looking at a turn based system (whether they be Turns, Phases, Rounds, etc...) unless everyone goes on every turn all the time.

 

Which eliminates one of the best parts of Hero, IMO, the Speed Characterisitc.

 

At some point you will either 1) Just cope. or Eliminate Speed.

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

At some point you will either 1) Just cope. or Eliminate Speed.

 

Or have vehicles move every segment while characters and vehicle weapons/systems/powers act per their SPD.

 

This is, the Champions II method.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Or have vehicles move every segment while characters and vehicle weapons/systems/powers act per their SPD.

 

This is, the Champions II method.

Which effectively eliminates SPD for the Vehicle.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I've sort of lost track of which vehicle thread was which,

 

so I've resigned myself to posting them in this one, figuring that BL is probably still watching them both, as he is trying to get some ideas for 'fixing' vehicle rules.

 

I recall seeing in one of the threads something that I agreed to. But I suddenly realized that I had mis-read a small bit of it (I really have _GOT_ to stop reading until all hours of the night!) and I'd like to take a minute to point out a potential issue with it.

 

The example was, I think, a vehicle with a SPD4 and a pilot of SPD3, and the suggestion was that the pilot did his course change on his phase, but it did not take effect until the next phase the vehicle moved. The explanation was that the pilot was 'waiting on the machine' to catch up to the input.

 

I don't like this on the surface, but for purely conceptual reasons; the mechanic itself seemed a lot like how we handle it now.

 

I don't like the assumption that a pilot with a lower SPD is 'waiting for the vehicle', in spite of it being capable of reacting faster than the current pilot can. After all, a SPD 4 character would find the machine most intuitive.

 

Sure, there's no better way to demonstrate the interaction of SPD3 character with SPD4 machine; my beef was the 'story-driven' aspect of it.

 

It makes no actual difference mechanically or tacticaly, but just to reconcile the two different SPDs, we (when we are mapping) allow the vechile to change its facing on the phase the pilot made the maneuver. Actual movement does wait until the vehicle's next Phase, of course.

 

 

Like I said; the mechanic is solid. But the idea of a slow guy waiting for a fast machine kinda didn't sit right.