Vehicle DEX

[Talon]

The higher a vehicle's DEX, the more difficult it is to hit in combat. Thus, a fighter plane has a higher DEX than a bulldozer.

 

Thinking about this...is a fighter plane really more hard to hit? If a fighter plane and a bulldozer were both moving at the same speed, would the fighter be harder to hit?

[MitchellS]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

The person flying the fighter makes it harder to hit with his skill. That is why I've long said that vehicles shouldn't have dexterity or speed stats. Instead they should use the dex and speed of the pilot [adjusted with the appropriate size modifiers].

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

The fighter isn't hard to hit if the pilot's DEX is lower than either vechile's DEX. But if it is , Mr. Fighter Pilot is not going to be that good at getting the bulldozer out of the way of an incoming attack than he would with the fighter. Vechile DEX is a quick mechanic to account for the vechile's responsiveness. You can also always you the velocity based DCV option.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

DCV is not purely about speed, but also about anticipation. Point is, even if you know it is coming, you can't get the 'dozer out of the way in time.

[MitchellS]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

DCV is not purely about speed' date=' but also about anticipation. Point is, even if you know it is coming, you can't get the 'dozer out of the way in time.[/quote']

What you're describing is an effect of movement. If the dozer can drive at mach 2 there's a good bet you can get it out of the way on time.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

What you're describing is an effect of movement. If the dozer can drive at mach 2 there's a good bet you can get it out of the way on time.

 

 

Not so much movement, but manouverablity, which is a function of DEX and SPD of the vehicle rather than pure movement.

 

Mind you a mach 2 bulldozer would be something to see, wouldn't it

[JohnTaber]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

The person flying the fighter makes it harder to hit with his skill. That is why I've long said that vehicles shouldn't have dexterity or speed stats. Instead they should use the dex and speed of the pilot [adjusted with the appropriate size modifiers].

 

Hi Mitchell: This issue has been talked into the ground but I have a slightly different approach to the vehicle dex/spd issue that is working great in my Star Hero game. I give vehicles dex but every vehicle has a spd of 12 for no point cost. This does several GREAT things. It makes the MPH/KPH calculations really easy. It also allows vehicles to move when the character can't act. This is essentially one step closer to how they worked in Champions II/III. I liked that model.

 

Anyway...onward and upward...

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Hi Mitchell: This issue has been talked into the ground but I have a slightly different approach to the vehicle dex/spd issue that is working great in my Star Hero game. I give vehicles dex but every vehicle has a spd of 12 for no point cost. This does several GREAT things. It makes the MPH/KPH calculations really easy. It also allows vehicles to move when the character can't act. This is essentially one step closer to how they worked in Champions II/III. I liked that model.

 

Anyway...onward and upward...

 

All in all this is easy and important 'fix' for vehicles.

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Thinking about this...is a fighter plane really more hard to hit? If a fighter plane and a bulldozer were both moving at the same speed' date=' would the fighter be harder to hit?[/quote']

 

I tend to agree with you. Fighter planes don't so much dodge individual attacks as they avoid weapon envelops in the first place.

 

On the bright side you have the option to use the velocity based DCV table (personally I'd use a relative velocity based table).

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Hi Mitchell: This issue has been talked into the ground but I have a slightly different approach to the vehicle dex/spd issue that is working great in my Star Hero game. I give vehicles dex but every vehicle has a spd of 12 for no point cost. This does several GREAT things. It makes the MPH/KPH calculations really easy. It also allows vehicles to move when the character can't act. This is essentially one step closer to how they worked in Champions II/III. I liked that model.

 

Anyway...onward and upward...

 

That' a fine way to fix the problem, since other objects built using Powers -- for example, all weapons -- also function on the character's own SPD, when he uses them, at his convenience (they essentially have SPD 12). Why should vehicles be an exception? A person with SPD 4 can get off twice as many shots with his Colt Anaconda as a person with SPD 2. Vehicles are built using Powers. Why make an exception?

 

Well, actually, there is a reason to limit the SPD of a vehicle, and that is "top speed." Really, having faster reflexes isn't going to allow you to push your Lamborghini Diablo twice as fast as another guy. All you have to do is stomp your foot down on the pedal, and hold the wheel straight, and each vehicle -- whether piloted by a person with SPD 2, 3, or 4 -- will achieve the same velocity (all other things, such as obstacles and the like, being equal). The same SHOULD be true of firearms' Rate of Fire, but that is easy to fudge.

 

In short, it's become jarringly obvious to me that vehicles' top speeds should not depend upon the character's SPD. It's just ridiculous. I'm all right with character "top speed" in Inches/Turn depending upon SPD, but I simply can't accept it with vehicles. It's ludicrous.

 

Therefore, I am going to go back to my old attempts to find a house rule that separates SPD from Movement -- but a GOOD rule, not the awkward ones that currently exist, one we can all live with. That way, a vehicle can be more maneuverable due to a higher SPD, yet still have the same top speed as a vehicle with an identical engine but poorer handling.

 

In other words, the vehicle's SPD would determine how much maneuvering you can do with it over the course of a Turn, and the Movement/ Turn would be independent from SPD. The trick is to find a way to reconcile those differences.

 

I have to say... this aspect of HERO is broken. Hero literally sucks at simulating even remotely realistic vehicles.

 

Well... hmmm. Better get to work....

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Well' date=' actually, there is a reason to limit the SPD of a vehicle, and that is "top speed." [/quote']

 

If you give all vehicles a SPD of 12, and have them move on each segment even if the driver has a slower SPD, that issue is moot.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

If you give all vehicles a SPD of 12' date=' and have them move on each segment even if the driver has a slower SPD, that issue is moot.[/quote']

 

It also means that each vehicle must have a SPD of at least 12", or multiples of 12". What if you want to creep around at 2"? The rules necessary to govern how that works would be quite complicated. If the driver wants his vehicle to move at 5", how would you work that? What about 32"? Should all vehicles respond as though they had SPD 12? To use the example from earlier, would a SPD 4 character being able to maneuver a bulldozer four times in one Turn be realistic? Shouldn't there be limits on what one can do, movement-wise (including turning and other maneuvers), with certain vehicles during a Turn?

 

That method does NOT fix all the problems, and even adds a few of its own. There is no existing mechanic for having a vehicle move autonomously every Turn. There is also no mechanic for incremental Movement -- it needs to be addressed. And the main problem is that the SPD 12 method assumes that the vehicle is as maneuverable as its pilot is quick, which is silly.

[Talon]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Aside: I generally use Turn-based movement -- not sure if my solution qualifies as clunky or not, but in essence I just have characters buy movement for the Turn and then divide it evenly amongst their Phases. Vehicles go on the driver's Phases splitting their movement as needed, so cars don't drive faster for certain people.

 

Getting back to vehicle DEX...from a realistic perspective, it seems like few vehicles actually use their nimbleness to avoid personal-scale weapons (guns, etc.). On the other hand, in a fighter-jet vs. missile kind of situation, I could see something like DCV coming into play.

 

My initial thought was to get rid of vehicle DEX and replace it with modifiers to DCV (base 0) and driving rolls (so the bulldozer would be a lot harder to corner effectively, while the fighter might have +2 DCV for being nimble). Something to think about.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Aside: I generally use Turn-based movement -- not sure if my solution qualifies as clunky or not' date=' but in essence I just have characters buy movement for the Turn and then divide it evenly amongst their Phases. Vehicles go on the driver's Phases splitting their movement as needed, so cars don't drive faster for certain people.[/quote']

 

That's basically what I want to do, but I would lie to polish it a little bit. I also want to revise the cost in Character Points per Inch of each type of movement to reflect its non-dependence on SPD (slashing the cost in half should do it). A chart detailing how to divide a certain amount of movement amongst the Phases of certain SPDs would be nice, but instead I think I'll say, "You may use no more than 1/2 (SPD 2)/ 1/3 (SPD 3)/ 1/4 (SPD 4) of your total Movement in Inches per Phase; distribute uneven Inches of Movement from your first Phase towards your last." That way, you may choose to go less than your allotted Speed in one Phase, but you will lose the difference when you move to your next Phase.

 

Example: Pithonn has a SPD of 3, Running 20". That means he will normally have the opportunity to move at 7" on his first Phase, 7" on his second Phase, and 6" on his last Phase. Remember that if the (Inches per Turn/ SPD) does not come out to a whole number, distribute the uneven Inches from first Phase to last (in this case, giving us 7", 7", 6"). If Pithonn does not wish to move at his full 7" in Phase A, and instead moves only 4", he cannot then use that "rollover" 3" in a later Phase. This also makes it much more realistic when using Velocity Factor.

 

Hey. I have my solution! My explanation may not be clear -- it has been a bit hurried -- so I will try to write up a more eloquent document, if anyone is interested. It really is quite simple and takes only a minor adjustment to the system to implement.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Also, the approximate human speed record for sprinting is 25 mph, or about 40 kph. That's approximately 666 meters per minute, approximately 11 meters per second. That works out to a Normal Characteristic Maxima estimate of 133 meters per Turn, or about 67" per Turn.

 

So, as my calculations go, 60" is a decent Normal Characteristic Maxima to set for Running using the separate SPD/ Movement system; if you want to be world-class, you'll pay double to work past the 60"/ Turn mark.

 

Also, a few other Hero System aspects must be reconciled with this system... I'll work them out as I find them.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

It also means that each vehicle must have a SPD of at least 12"' date=' or multiples of 12". ...[/quote']

 

No no. My concept is that vehicles must have a SPD of 12 NOT a movement of 12". A SPD of 12. If you want your vehicle to go really slow buy it less movement. Get it?

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

It also means that each vehicle must have a SPD of at least 12"' date=' or multiples of 12". What if you want to creep around at 2"? [/quote']

 

As already pointed out- SPD 12, movement rate can be whatever you want.

 

 

To use the example from earlier, would a SPD 4 character being able to maneuver a bulldozer four times in one Turn be realistic? Shouldn't there be limits on what one can do, movement-wise (including turning and other maneuvers), with certain vehicles during a Turn?

 

That's what turn modes are for.

 

 

There is no existing mechanic for having a vehicle move autonomously every Turn.

 

There a number of ways of handling this.

 

The simple method is just to have the driver declare both his combat action and entire course until his next segment, i.e. exactly what happens now if you've purchused the vehicles movement to match the character's SPD to produced a desired mph velocity. Only instead of moving the entire distance in one segment you move at the vehicles declared movement rate each segment.

 

Another simple method is just to allow the player free movement control on those segments he doesn't go in- but no other action or change of action unless he aborts, i.e. the way the game used to work.

 

 

 

And the main problem is that the SPD 12 method assumes that the vehicle is as maneuverable as its pilot is quick, which is silly.

 

That's what Turn Modes are for.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

As already pointed out- SPD 12' date=' movement rate can be whatever you want.[/quote']

 

Mmm-hmmm. Only, say the vehicle has Ground Movement 15". With no further adjustments to the rules, that means a SPD 2 characer will only act in two Phases, and the vehicle will have 30"/ Turn total Movement. On the other hand, piloted by a SPD 4 character, the vehicle will have 60"/ Turn total Movement. This still does not solve the "top speed" problem.

 

And if you mean the vehicle should move on each Segment, see my response below to your answer to that questiion.

 

That's what turn modes are for.

 

Turn modes don't quite seem to handle the differences between a tractor and a fighter jet very well to me; they're not granular enough. I believe the two values ought to be used in a complementary fasion, making maneuverability VERY granular (a SPD 1 tractor with a crappy turn mode; a SPD 5 fighter jet with the best turn mode).

 

There a number of ways of handling this.

 

The simple method is just to have the driver declare both his combat action and entire course until his next segment, i.e. exactly what happens now if you've purchused the vehicles movement to match the character's SPD to produced a desired mph velocity. Only instead of moving the entire distance in one segment you move at the vehicles declared movement rate each segment.

 

The only problem I see with this is that moving in each Segment requires you to deal with the non-granularity of multiples of 12, or the problem of deciding how to divide up the moving/ nonmoving phases if a player wants to go at a speed not divisible by 12 -- say 7, or 17. It's going to make a lot of extra work in-game whenever the player chooses a speed not divisible by 12 or 6 or 4 or 3. Separate Movement divided between only the active Phases of a character or vehicle's Turn allows you the ultimate granularity -- increments of 1", easily distributed between any number of Phases on the fly.

 

In the "Divide Movement by SPD" method, if a player wishes to change his speed in a given Phase, he simply moves fewer Inches (instead of reducing the movement he makes during every single Segment).

[JohnTaber]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

In the "Divide Movement by SPD" method' date=' if a player wishes to change his speed in a given Phase, he simply moves fewer Inches (instead of reducing the movement he makes during every single Segment).[/quote']

 

When I run this I don't divide the movement by the speed at all. If a vehicle is travelling at 5" then it goes 5" on phase 1, 5" on phase 2, etc.

 

NOW...

 

To simply things...I like simple...I let the pilot make course corrections (i.e. steer) even if it is not their phase. It seems to work fine as the enemy ships use the same rules.

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Turn modes don't quite seem to handle the differences between a tractor and a fighter jet very well to me; they're not granular enough.

 

They used to be. And they can be made so again.

 

 

I believe the two values ought to be used in a complementary fasion, making maneuverability VERY granular (a SPD 1 tractor with a crappy turn mode; a SPD 5 fighter jet with the best turn mode).

 

 

The only problem I see with this is that moving in each Segment requires you to deal with the non-granularity of multiples of 12, or the problem of deciding how to divide up the moving/ nonmoving phases if a player wants to go at a speed not divisible by 12 -- say 7, or 17.

 

This 'problem' already exists.

 

How do you currently move 60 mph with a SPD 4 character in HERO? The answer is that you don't, you move a rounded number of inches in each of the 4 phases that's somewhat close to 60 mph.

 

This is in no significant way different. Call it close, round it off, and call it good.

 

 

In the "Divide Movement by SPD" method, if a player wishes to change his speed in a given Phase, he simply moves fewer Inches (instead of reducing the movement he makes during every single Segment).

 

You're vastly overthinking this and causing yourself problems. The old rules allowed you to adjust your speed by a given acceleration/deacceleration value every segment as the driver wished.

 

The game used to work this way. It was only a mistaken desire to force vehicles to function exactly as characters that changed it.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

They used to be. And they can be made so again.

 

One significant difficulty with Turn Modes is that they are based upon Current Turn Mode = Total Distance Traveled This Phase/5. Also, there is only one Turn Mode Disadvantage; there are no greater or lesser Turn Modes. If you have a Turn Mode, you use that formula, and that formula is frankly incompatible with Segmented Movement, because it doesn't take into account the distance moved between Segments.

 

This 'problem' already exists.

 

How do you currently move 60 mph with a SPD 4 character in HERO? The answer is that you don't, you move a rounded number of inches in each of the 4 phases that's somewhat close to 60 mph.

 

Hmmm. Let's see. At 12" (24 m) per Turn, 60" (120 m) per minute, and 3600" (7200 m) per hour, we're talking 7.2 kph increments (4.44 mph increments.) Actually, that's all right by me; even 5 mph increments would suit me just fine, and this way is slightly more granular than that. You can go from 0 kph (0 inches) to 4.44 mph (12 inches) to 8.89 mph (24 inches) to 13.33 mph (36 inches) to 17.78 mph (48 inches) to 22.22 mph (60 inches), and so on and so forth. That's all well and good. But! See my paragraph above, wherein I wonder how to reconcile the current Turn Mode system with this Segment-by-Segment method.

 

With the Segment-by-Segment method, only two factors control the vehicle's maneuverability (aside from an abstract DEX score): the vehicle's Movement, and the pilot's SPD. That is unacceptable to me. Some very slow vehicles (skateboard, for example) can be quite maneuverable, while some comparatively very fast vehicles (a C-5 Galaxy, for instance, USAF ginormous cargo carrier) aren't maneuverable hardly at all.

 

I can solve this by simply saying, "Well, you move each Segment, but there is a virtual limit to the SPD with which you may maneuver the craft," and make that virtual SPD a Limitation. However, I still don't have a solution for the Turn Mode system, although I may come up with one soon.

 

You're vastly overthinking this and causing yourself problems. The old rules allowed you to adjust your speed by a given acceleration/deacceleration value every segment as the driver wished.

 

The game used to work this way. It was only a mistaken desire to force vehicles to function exactly as characters that changed it.

 

I disagree that I am overthinking the problem. The rules do need to be changed, at least I would like to change them for my own use, and preferably in a way that is both easy to implement and runs smoothly and realistically at crunch time. As the system is written, people with higher SPD get to go faster in the identical vehicle... not cool. I like the Segmented movement you suggest, but what about the Turn Mode?

[Fox1]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

I like the Segmented movement you suggest' date=' but what about the Turn Mode?[/quote']

 

You need to grab a copy of Champions II if you get the chance and look over the orginal rules.

 

There vehicles were bought completely differently than they are in 5th edition with Turn Mode (2 pts), Acceleration (5 pts) and Deceleration (2 pts) specifically brought.

 

The Turn Modes were much more restricted than those for characters. No turning on a dime here.

 

An average vehicle like the family wagon had a Turn Value of 3, An F-15 had one of 20.

 

If your movement per segment was 1x TURN or less, you got to change your hex facing one each segment.

 

2x Turns was once every 2 segments.

3x Turns was once every 3 segments.

 

And so on.

 

 

Basically Champions II treated vehicles like something inherently different than characters. A concept I agree with, but those who did later editions apparently did not.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

You need to grab a copy of Champions II if you get the chance and look over the orginal rules.

 

Look over at the upper right-hand corner of my post window... right there near Norfolk, VA... ah! Yes, 22 years old. I am fairly certain I was still soiling my Pampers when Champions II came out, but I wouldn't know for sure. In all seriousness, I cannot find the aforementioned book for sale online, possibly because I do not know its full title, or the best place to look for it. I also cannot find a fansite with outdated Champions information archived, and I suspect DOJ doesn't stock that ruleset anymore, either.

 

Thus, unless someone is willing to share this information with me through some other vector, I am up the primordial estuary without a paddle as far as the old vehicle rules system is concerned. However....

 

There vehicles were bought completely differently than they are in 5th edition with Turn Mode (2 pts), Acceleration (5 pts) and Deceleration (2 pts) specifically brought.

 

The Turn Modes were much more restricted than those for characters. No turning on a dime here.

 

An average vehicle like the family wagon had a Turn Value of 3, An F-15 had one of 20.

 

If your movement per segment was 1x TURN or less, you got to change your hex facing one each segment.

 

2x Turns was once every 2 segments.

3x Turns was once every 3 segments.

 

And so on.

 

 

Basically Champions II treated vehicles like something inherently different than characters. A concept I agree with, but those who did later editions apparently did not.

 

Thank you. I may be able to extrapolate a fully functioning alternative vehicle system from the information you have provided. We shall see....

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Look over at the upper right-hand corner of my post window... right there near Norfolk' date=' VA[/b']... ah! Yes, 22 years old. I am fairly certain I was still soiling my Pampers when Champions II came out, but I wouldn't know for sure. In all seriousness, I cannot find the aforementioned book for sale online, possibly because I do not know its full title, or the best place to look for it. I also cannot find a fansite with outdated Champions information archived, and I suspect DOJ doesn't stock that ruleset anymore, either.

 

Thus, unless someone is willing to share this information with me through some other vector, I am up the primordial estuary without a paddle as far as the old vehicle rules system is concerned. However....

 

 

 

Thank you. I may be able to extrapolate a fully functioning alternative vehicle system from the information you have provided. We shall see....

Champions II is up for sale from the Online Store for $8.95

 

I just purchased a copy because of Fox1's run down of the vehicle rules (which I agree should be seperate and distinct from the character rules)

 

TB

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Vehicle DEX

 

Champions II is up for sale from the Online Store for $8.95

 

I just purchased a copy because of Fox1's run down of the vehicle rules (which I agree should be seperate and distinct from the character rules)

 

TB

 

Interesting... I suppose I ought to pick up a set too, then.

 

I didn't think they'd have such an "outdated" thing stocked. Odd.