Detect Vulnerability

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Personally, I don't believe you should buy any Detect (in any form) to detect game mechanics. Detect: Vulnerability Disadvantage is a lot like saying Detect: Attack With 8+ Damage Classes. Would you allow the later? I wouldn't. It just doesn't make sense. The mechanics allow us to play the game; they aren't the game itself.

 

That said, here's how I'd allow it (and how I've done it before):

 

Detect Vulnerability (class of things, passive, no sense group), Discriminatory, Range, Sense. 17 points. Affected as Sight Group (-1/2) Real Cost: 11

 

"Vulnerability" here is not a game mechanic, but anything about a subject perceived that makes more likely to be harmed or adversly affected by one type of effect over another. Game mechanics wise, this would reveal many (but not necessarily all) Susceptibility or Vulnerability Disads, as well as some Physical Limitations. It may also reveal an unbalance in the target's defenses. Say a target has a particularly low Ego score and no Mental Defense, or no Power Defense, or a PD of 45 but an ED of only 15. These characters are vulnerable to certain types of attack, and this Detect would detect them.

 

At the Discriminatory level, the character senses the vulnerability and has a rough idea of what type of attack would exploit the weakness, but would not know to what degree it would affect the character. A character with no Resistant Defense is vulnerable to and would take full damage from Killing Attacks, but the Detect would only reveal that a knife is likely to do more damage than a baseball bat. If bought to Analyse, such information would be more specific. The range and sense descriptors are failry self explanitory.

 

In combat, a character may make a 0 Phase Action to see if a single, specific target has any vulnerabilities (and only one per Phase). If the PER roll is made, the character knows the target's most obvious vulnerability (GM's option which). If the target has more than one, it will take more time to perceive all of them. The character may use another 0 Phase action in a subsequent Phase to attempt to perceive another.

 

If the character uses a 1/2 Phase, they can perceive and identify a number of vulnerabilities in a single target equal to the amount they made their PER roll by. Or, they may use a 1/2 Phase to attempt to perceive the most obvious vulnerability of everyone in the character's line of site (one roll, result modified based on PER modifiers of each target). The character may perform either of these as a Full Phase action and receive a +1 to his PER.

 

In all cases, if the character fails a PER roll against a specific target, he cannot make any more attempts that combat/encounter. The character can sense a group of people all he wants, but vulnerabilities will not be reveiled in any target's he has failed to perceived any in previously that combat/encounter.

 

P.S.: I would allow (and have allowed) this on a character with VSFX attacks or a VPP. The extra points spent are intended (especially for VSFX) to take advantage of a target's vulnerabilities. The Detect only makes it easier to do so.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Hey, I've got an NPC with all three (Find Weakness, VSE EB, and Detect Vulnerability)... I've defined "detect vulnerabilities" as a subset of the Hound Senses (AKA "nova detects"), as such it doesn't get any bonuses from Simulated Sense and the character has to pay for everything.

 

There are a few pertinent campaign rules that affect how this works though...

 

#1> Detect Vulnerability works at the Meta-SFX level, just like everything else of this nature. So if it's defined as being a nova power it won't detect magical vulnerabilities, psionic vulnerabilities, or technological vulnerabilities.

 

#2> It would require the Analyze adder -- and hence automatically be dependent upon the Analyze skill and everything that using it entails (such as the time involved).

 

#3> Because I'm from the school of thought that says skills should matter, I penalize or give bonuses to the roll based on how 'obvious' within campaign logic the disadvantage is. Discovering that Captain Freon is vulnerable to heat gets a +2 bonus. Discovering the Amazing Babe gets her powers from her belt is a +/- 0. Discovering that Killer Frost is vulnerable to cold gets a -4 penalty, unless the character has an appropriate KS (KS: Supervillains would be -3 penalty, KS: American Supervillains would be -2, KS: Firestorm's Rogues would be -1, KS: Killer Frost would mean no penalty).

 

RE: Find Weakness, only vs opponents with Vulnerability. I'd consider allowing this, but -1 seems high. I'd probably peg that around -1/2

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I realized that again this breaks a Metarule IMO. You should not use Detect to figure out a target's Vulnerabilities. You should be using an Analyze Skill. How specific that Analyze Skill should be is up to the GM. A very generic version would be, "Analyze: Vulnerabilities," but I'm not sure I'd let such a general one into most games myself; instead you might need several versions to cover all possible Vulnerabilities (possibly Analyze: Physical Weaknesses, Analyze: Mental Weaknesses, etc.).

 

Certainly Find Weakness could be used as well or instead; it just isn't going to allow you to know more about the target. However, it could very well have a Limitation (as stated above) and/or a RSR based on an appropriate Analyze Skill.

 

 

...but wouldn't you need a super-sense to be able to analyse mental, and most physical weaknesses?

 

Analyse is a skill and is cheaper than any sense. Discriminatory and analyse as parts of a sense are individually and collectively more expensive.

 

One thing that no one seems to be picking up on here* is that senses are NOT automatic. They require PER rolls. There is no reason penalties can not be applies to such rolls, and no reason why failed rolls can't give false information:

 

Keep up the firebolts, InSinerator, he's vulnerable to thtem; he'll fall soon...

 

You sure, Weakpoint: I mean, he seems to be getting bigger....

 

 

 

 

 

*you could read that as 'I am a conceited git, and so much better than you'. That is not how it was meant**.

 

 

 

 

**mind you, I could have changed it and didn't, so maybe it was***...

 

 

 

***navel contemplation should be left up to rear admirals

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Personally' date=' I don't believe you should buy any Detect (in any form) to detect game mechanics. Detect: Vulnerability Disadvantage is a lot like saying Detect: Attack With 8+ Damage Classes. Would you allow the later? I wouldn't. It just doesn't make sense. The mechanics allow us to [i']play[/i] the game; they aren't the game itself.

 

That said, here's how I'd allow it (and how I've done it before):

 

Detect Vulnerability (class of things, passive, no sense group), Discriminatory, Range, Sense. 17 points. Affected as Sight Group (-1/2) Real Cost: 11

..........

In all cases, if the character fails a PER roll against a specific target, he cannot make any more attempts that combat/encounter. The character can sense a group of people all he wants, but vulnerabilities will not be reveiled in any target's he has failed to perceived any in previously that combat/encounter.

 

.......

 

Hello Dust Raven. Seems like ages since I've seen you about, but maybe that is just senility setting in

 

Good post.

 

I think 'vulnerability' could be meta gaming or not - as you point out - it depends on, for instance, how the detect sfx work. I mean, you could define it as a sort of temporal sense that looks through a target's timestream for moments of trauma and you see what hurt them most. Someone earlier suggested you use telepathy. There is no reason you could not define a detect as a very limited form of telepathy....it all comes down to making sure there is some justification for the detect. The detect sfx may help or hinder you but give the GM a good basis for making decisions on effectiveness.

 

Bit confused by the 'no sense- affected as sight group' thing. Is the idea to make the power vulnerable to a very specific AND a very broad way to stop it?

 

I like the clarification that you should only make one detect roll. I generally only allow one PER roll (whatever it is being rolled for) unless the circumstances change. For instance if you detect that IceLord is vulnerable to magnetic fields, hit him with a magnetic field and it has no effect I'd let you go back and have another PER roll, maybe at a penalty, maybe at a bonus. If you can ONLY make one PER roll per opponent, that may be worth a limitation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I think 'vulnerability' could be meta gaming or not - as you point out - it depends on' date=' for instance, how the detect sfx work. [/quote']

 

I would consider "Detect the Disadvantage "Vulnerability"" to be metagamish. Perhaps "detect weaknesses" is a better term. The classic comic book example I see for this is certain appearances of Marvel's Sentinels, who are able to detect not only that the target is a mutant, but how his mutation works and how it would best be countered.

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

There have been quite a few intriguing posts since my last; definitely food for thought should the situation ever arise (though I really hope it wouldn't).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

...but wouldn't you need a super-sense to be able to analyse mental' date=' and most physical weaknesses?[/quote']

Probably. But such a sense is not sufficient to do so. A character would likely need Mental Awareness or some other such Sense in order to gather the information necessary to use their Analyze Mental Weaknesses Skill. They might be able to do it with other Senses and/or Complimentary Skills (SS: Psychology), but it isn't likely to be as effective (i.e. will probably incur penalties). BTW, like DR I wouldn't necessarily cut the distinctions for this along boundaries synonymous with game mechanics (like Vulnerability).

 

Analyse is a skill and is cheaper than any sense. Discriminatory and analyse as parts of a sense are individually and collectively more expensive.

True, but the Skill is also quite subject to situation, experience, Complimentary knowledge, and GM whim. My opionion is that anything that is going to be so possibly unbalancing as knowing all a target's weaknesses without requisit roleplaying and experimentation should be.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Let me solve everyone's problem...

 

Detect: Weakness/Vulnerability; Only near the end of the episode, when all looks lost. (-1/2).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Schweet!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Probably. But such a sense is not sufficient to do so. A character would likely need Mental Awareness or some other such Sense in order to gather the information necessary to use their Analyze Mental Weaknesses Skill. They might be able to do it with other Senses and/or Complimentary Skills (SS: Psychology), but it isn't likely to be as effective (i.e. will probably incur penalties). BTW, like DR I wouldn't necessarily cut the distinctions for this along boundaries synonymous with game mechanics (like Vulnerability).

 

 

True, but the Skill is also quite subject to situation, experience, Complimentary knowledge, and GM whim. My opionion is that anything that is going to be so possibly unbalancing as knowing all a target's weaknesses without requisit roleplaying and experimentation should be.

 

 

I disagree (don't I always ) If you are in a cell, you can make a PER roll to check if, maybe, one of the bars has worked a bit loose, and the concrete it is set in is cracked. You've just found a weakness or vulnerability with sight perception. No other skill needed. You can do this as sight has the discriminatory adder.

 

I mean, if you had analyse skill as well, I wouldn't mind using it as a complimentary skill to the PER roll - you know what to look for - but I think the perception part is the most important part of the process.

 

BTW, G-A. Splendid idea

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Let me solve everyone's problem...

 

Detect: Weakness/Vulnerability; Only near the end of the episode, when all looks lost. (-1/2).

You forgot to add Incantation ("Of course! It's so obvious!") and possibly Gestures (slap self on forehead).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

You forgot to add Incantation ("Of course! It's so obvious!") and possibly Gestures (slap self on forehead).

I was also thinkin it might need IIF: Random Obscure Text Of The Moment.

 

but those would be campaign specific Limitations.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I disagree (don't I always ) If you are in a cell, you can make a PER roll to check if, maybe, one of the bars has worked a bit loose, and the concrete it is set in is cracked. You've just found a weakness or vulnerability with sight perception. No other skill needed. You can do this as sight has the discriminatory adder.

 

I mean, if you had analyse skill as well, I wouldn't mind using it as a complimentary skill to the PER roll - you know what to look for - but I think the perception part is the most important part of the process.

 

BTW, G-A. Splendid idea

I didn't mean to imply that this sort of thing can't be done at all without a Skill, but if you want to go above and beyond what any plain old joe can do I think the Analyze Skill is the way to go. Anyone may be able to poke around a cell for a while and come up with some flaw if it is conveniently there, but someone with, "Analyze: Structural Integrity," could likely tell at a glance or two that the bars are set such that all it would take is a good strong blow to the ceiling or adjacent wall to cause them to become loose, or that the ground is likely soft underneath due to the way the building seems to have settled.

 

I often use, "Analyze: Facility Defenses," for those with a strategic background who know how to defend or attack a stronghold; they can take a quick look at how guards seem to be deployed and know the best time and place to sneak in or launch an attack; they can tell from the general layout of a structure that its roof is probably a good access point; they can see from the appearence of the walls that a good catapult will likely breach them with ease.... Sure anyone with eyes might be able to deduce these things, but it is going to take some work, some study time, some guessing on the player's and/or character's part, etc. This specific example could probably be aided or Complimentary to Tactics, but likely also extends into the strategic realm as well.

 

The idea is that the character with the Analyze Skill is particularly good at taking what (s)he perceives with his/her senses and deducing with efficiency and the confidence of good experience and/or logic what that means about the relavent capabilities, flaws, etc. of the subject.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Hello Dust Raven. Seems like ages since I've seen you about, but maybe that is just senility setting in

 

Good post.

Thanks. Actually, it's been about a month and a half since I've posted regularly, give or take. I started school recently and haven't had much spare time.

 

Bit confused by the 'no sense- affected as sight group' thing. Is the idea to make the power vulnerable to a very specific AND a very broad way to stop it?

I could have easily made it simply part of the Sight Group, but it really isn't. I see it as being either intuitive/instinctive or somewhat psychic, and disconnected from any other senses. It's affected as the Sight Group because without an existing sense to target the subjects who have vulnerabilities, the Detect is worthless.

 

Also, I could have just made the sense Targeting, but again, I think it should be dependant on existing senses to function properly. A person blinded should't be able to spot weakness in others using this sense.

 

I like the clarification that you should only make one detect roll. I generally only allow one PER roll (whatever it is being rolled for) unless the circumstances change. For instance if you detect that IceLord is vulnerable to magnetic fields, hit him with a magnetic field and it has no effect I'd let you go back and have another PER roll, maybe at a penalty, maybe at a bonus. If you can ONLY make one PER roll per opponent, that may be worth a limitation.

Well, I'd allow more than one roll, but like with Find Weakness and Block (and so many other game mechanics), once you fail a roll, you can't make any more untill the circumstances have changed (typically no more attempts this combat/encounter).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Let me solve everyone's problem...

 

Detect: Weakness/Vulnerability; Only near the end of the episode, when all looks lost. (-1/2).

 

Or:

 

Sudden Inspiration: +10 to Deduction Rolls; 1 Charge. 7 points.

 

Great for pulling the answer to everything out of your *** near the end of the story. No limitation for when because you can still use it whenever you like, but near the end of a story you have the most information to draw conclusions off of and are more likely to be asking the right question. (and because that's too much metagaming).

 

Alternately, you can simply add No Conscious Controll, bringing the point cost down to 4, and only the GM tells you when you use it.

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I disagree (don't I always ) If you are in a cell' date=' you can make a PER roll to check if, maybe, one of the bars has worked a bit loose, and the concrete it is set in is cracked. You've just found a weakness or vulnerability with sight perception. No other skill needed. You can do this as sight has the discriminatory adder.[/quote']

Hmm, I disagree here. If anything, game mechanics-wise the character is using Find Weakness. If suddenly you discovered that these bars practically disolve in chlorine, you've found a vulnerability.* Getting ahold of the chlorine is another problem.

 

*This is all dependent upon if I read your comment correctly; if you were "pre-"reinforcing what I stated, well okay then.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I disagree (don't I always ) If you are in a cell' date=' you can make a PER roll to check if, maybe, one of the bars has worked a bit loose, and the concrete it is set in is cracked. You've just found a weakness or vulnerability with sight perception. No other skill needed. You can do this as sight has the discriminatory adder.[/quote']

 

And I agreeably disagree with your disagreement.

 

While I appreciate what you are trying to say, what you have done in this example is simply find an imperfection that you can exploit-- existing damage that would take less damage than the rest to dislodge.

 

But you have not found out any special information that allows you to ignore 1/2 of the bar's defenses, or the concrete's for that mattter. They will both have full Def against any attack you launch to destroy either. All you've done is find a point at which the joining of the two is easier to separate.

 

 

 

I mean, if you had analyse skill as well, I wouldn't mind using it as a complimentary skill to the PER roll - you know what to look for - but I think the perception part is the most important part of the process.

 

BTW, G-A. Splendid idea

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Hmm, I disagree here. If anything, game mechanics-wise the character is using Find Weakness. If suddenly you discovered that these bars practically disolve in chlorine, you've found a vulnerability.* Getting ahold of the chlorine is another problem.

 

*This is all dependent upon if I read your comment correctly; if you were "pre-"reinforcing what I stated, well okay then.

Ahhhhh. So you need a Power for your character to poke around the inside of your cell and find a bar that already happened to be loose? Mmmm...I'd hate to play in your heroic games.

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Ahhhhh. So you need a Power for your character to poke around the inside of your cell and find a bar that already happened to be loose? Mmmm...I'd hate to play in your heroic games.

I don't know how you drew that conclusion, but you are absolutely off-based. A PER roll could tell that a bar is loose, a Find Weakness could tell you where the weakest aspect is of it (making it 1/2 defenses) and the theoretical detect Vulnerability would tell you that [as a made up example] chlorine makes it disolve quicker.

 

I can only think your rolled an 18 on an 8- Deduction roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

And I agreeably disagree with your disagreement.

 

While I appreciate what you are trying to say, what you have done in this example is simply find an imperfection that you can exploit-- existing damage that would take less damage than the rest to dislodge.

 

But you have not found out any special information that allows you to ignore 1/2 of the bar's defenses, or the concrete's for that mattter. They will both have full Def against any attack you launch to destroy either. All you've done is find a point at which the joining of the two is easier to separate.

 

 

 

I mean, if you had analyse skill as well, I wouldn't mind using it as a complimentary skill to the PER roll - you know what to look for - but I think the perception part is the most important part of the process.

 

BTW, G-A. Splendid idea

 

 

Well, to respectfully disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement, someone with 'Find weakness' is FINDING a weakness, not creating one: it assumes that everything has weaknesses - some are just more obvious than others. All you do when you find a weakness in Defender's armour is spot a point where damage is more likely to get through. You are assuming I'm attacking the bar or the concrete: I'm not - I'm attacking the integrity of the cell, in the same way I'm not attacking an opponent's defences with find weakness - I'm attacking the opponent.

 

Mind you, you might spot a weakness in my argument, so I'll move on....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Well' date=' to respectfully disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement, someone with 'Find weakness' is FINDING a weakness, not creating one: [/quote']

 

And in this, I agree! (which probably really screws up what could become another running McJoke, so the universe is safe again. Whew. Yay, me!)

 

Judging strictly by the title of the talent, then yes, he is finding an existing weakness.

 

But by the mechanic-- cutting defenses in half, it is pretty obvious that the assailant is actually -creating- a weakness.

 

There is reconcilliation there, and one that does not deprive untalented cellmates the use of their eyes, and that is to choose an interpretation of the talent that does not confess to actually creating a weakness _and_ at the same time does not reflect simply detecting something obvious to anyone who looks around.

 

To that end, I generally assume that anyone with this ability is in fact very talented with his abilities and has an extensive understanding of the subtlties of his abilities, probably well beyond that of other characters, even supers.

 

What the character is doing when he finds a weakness is not looking for any general flaw in his opponent, but analyzing his opponent's tactics and abilities and comparing them to his own abilities, ultimately with the goal of stumbling across that golden "if I hit him just right, with this ability, at this moment, while he is precisely 'x', then...."

 

 

That sort of thing.

 

And it's pretty well solved the whole issue ever since we started looking at it that way.

 

 

Have fun!

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

And in this, I agree! (which probably really screws up what could become another running McJoke, so the universe is safe again. Whew. Yay, me!)

 

Judging strictly by the title of the talent, then yes, he is finding an existing weakness.

 

But by the mechanic-- cutting defenses in half, it is pretty obvious that the assailant is actually -creating- a weakness.

 

There is reconcilliation there, and one that does not deprive untalented cellmates the use of their eyes, and that is to choose an interpretation of the talent that does not confess to actually creating a weakness _and_ at the same time does not reflect simply detecting something obvious to anyone who looks around.

 

To that end, I generally assume that anyone with this ability is in fact very talented with his abilities and has an extensive understanding of the subtlties of his abilities, probably well beyond that of other characters, even supers.

 

What the character is doing when he finds a weakness is not looking for any general flaw in his opponent, but analyzing his opponent's tactics and abilities and comparing them to his own abilities, ultimately with the goal of stumbling across that golden "if I hit him just right, with this ability, at this moment, while he is precisely 'x', then...."

 

 

That sort of thing.

 

And it's pretty well solved the whole issue ever since we started looking at it that way.

 

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

....well, if you are going to go around being sensible about it, I'm not playing.

 

I suppose the cell could have been bought with disadvantages:

 

Distinctive features: poorly built, or

Accidental change: opens whenever anyone makes a PER roll, or......

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

....well' date=' if you are going to go around being sensible about it, I'm not playing. [/quote']

not at all, my friend----

 

it was an invitation, really!

 

I defy you to come up with a way to reconcile your ideas against those posted.

 

I'd rep ya for the humor and good will,

 

but I've got to find twenty others first!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

not at all, my friend----

 

it was an invitation, really!

 

I defy you to come up with a way to reconcile your ideas against those posted.

 

I'd rep ya for the humor and good will,

 

but I've got to find twenty others first!

 

I was going to write something silly about reality being full of holes, but how is this:

 

A damaged wall is a wall with a disadvantage: Physical limitation - obvious weakness (anyone can find weakness with a simple PER roll, does not require the Find Weakness power). Maybe, instead, the cell has a vulnerability (Kirby: did you mean susceptibilty in your example?) to physical force, and the PER roll is just a precurseor in the process of working that out.

 

Find Weakness, as a power, INCLUDES a form of perception that enables you to understand either that an otherwise unperceived weakness exists or the best place to hit to maximise the damage you can do. FW is like a macro - a combination of enhanced sense, perception roll and analyse roll made in a single roll. In the cell example, you don't need an enhanced sense to see the weakness, and you don't need analyse as the cell has a disadvantage that, in effect, gives that skill to everyone looking at it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Well, to respectfully disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement, someone with 'Find weakness' is FINDING a weakness, not creating one: it assumes that everything has weaknesses - some are just more obvious than others. All you do when you find a weakness in Defender's armour is spot a point where damage is more likely to get through. You are assuming I'm attacking the bar or the concrete: I'm not - I'm attacking the integrity of the cell, in the same way I'm not attacking an opponent's defences with find weakness - I'm attacking the opponent.

 

Mind you, you might spot a weakness in my argument, so I'll move on....

Okay, this time I will respectfully disagree. Find Weakness, no matter what name or system history it may have inherited, is now a Power that has the mechanical effect of halving the value of defenses. Whether it, "Finds weaknesses that already happened to be there," "Creates temporary weaknesses that can be exploited by this character," adds some form of strange armor piercing or indirect quality to the attacker's powers or whatever is just Special Effects.