Detect Vulnerability

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Working on a character with a Variable Special Effects attack. I wanted to give him a Detect Vulnerability to go with it, but it seems awfully cheap. Would you allow such a thing? (I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find it at this time.)

[MitchellS]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I'd allow it but I'd consider it to be a large category and I'd make it take both discriminatory and analyze.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Well, unless you make it a simulated sense group detect it is going to cost about 37 points. If it is attached to a sense group I'd want some mechanism outlined to explain how you can see that the target is vulnerable to magnetism, and it is going to be vulnerable to all the normal ways to block that sense.

 

Also not that many characters have vulnerabilities, and even if they do, you might not be in a position to take advantage of them, so whilst it is a really powerful ability in the right circumstances, those circumstances may not come along that often.

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I agree with MitchellS; It's a Large Class of Things, and you'll need Use as a Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze, and probably support skills (KS:Superhuman Physiology, KS:Supernatural Monsters, Analyze Magic, whatever) to use it.

 

However, if a player did sink that many points into it, I'd make sure to let him get some use out of it. My Black Alice character was specifically designed to be brought down by mystic heroes with Analyze Magic, KS:Supernatural Monsters, and variable SFX.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I'd almost certainly prohibit such a construction as being unbalancing and overly metagamed. We already have a way to simulate this type of thing: Find Weakness, which is essentially what this character is doing, particularly with a VSE attack. (In fact, I rather suspect if you fed "Locate Vulnerability" into a translation program you'd likely get "Find Weakness" back out.)

 

If the character wanted just a Detect: Vulnerability (without the corresponding VSE attack) then I'd allow it, but I agree with Oddhat that it would need to be a Large Class of Things, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze (Not as a Sense; I have no objection to it taking time to use and it probably should.). Then he could tell his teammates "He's vulnerable to fire, Flame Boy! Blast him" or go about looking for a way to create a fire attack from the environment. (Gas stations explode real good!)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Well, you could leave out the Ranged and give them the opportunity to smack you a couple of times before you learn their weakness.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I'd almost certainly prohibit such a construction as being unbalancing and overly metagamed. We already have a way to simulate this type of thing: Find Weakness, which is essentially what this character is doing, particularly with a VSE attack. (In fact, I rather suspect if you fed "Locate Vulnerability" into a translation program you'd likely get "Find Weakness" back out.)

 

If the character wanted just a Detect: Vulnerability (without the corresponding VSE attack) then I'd allow it, but I agree with Oddhat that it would need to be a Large Class of Things, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze (Not as a Sense; I have no objection to it taking time to use and it probably should.). Then he could tell his teammates "He's vulnerable to fire, Flame Boy! Blast him" or go about looking for a way to create a fire attack from the environment. (Gas stations explode real good!)

 

Find weakness can work against almost everyone, Locate vulnerability will only work against characters with vulnerabilities. Vulnerabilities are disadvantages. Disadvantages should come up reasonably often in play. I have no problem with this construct, even with the VSE attack. Villains shouldn't be getting free points any more than heroes should, and with this hero against them, every attack sfx will be 'very common' so they'll get more points for the vulnerability, so they won't need to have so many other disadvantages.

 

For balance sake, you could make the VSE part RSR, so you have to first locate the vulnerability then 'tune' the attack to it. Frankly, in a game where no one bats an eye at VPPs, I can't see the problem.

 

The other great balancer, is that it won't take vulnerable villains long to work out who the biggest threat is, and deal with it first and hard. Darwin was quite right.

 

I'm also pretty sure that 'vulnerabilities' are not a large class of things. Depends on how often they are used in villain builds, of course, but I'd say they were a 5 point detect, not a 10.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

....also you might consider letting the character start with the +1/4 version of VSE and buy it up to +1/2 later if things don't do too badly wrong.

 

Makes perfect sense for a character that can control the electromagnetic spectrum:

 

I can see the microwave radiation forming interference patterns in his aura: now if only I can tune my lasers to the right frequency.....

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

In my case, I used something like this for Night Hunter, a Batman analog with low power attacks who fought traditional Supernatural monsters. He used a mix of Detect Magic (Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze). Analyze Magic, KS:Supernatural Creatures, and other skills to work out what a particular monster was vulnerable to. He could then use his Variable Special Effects to exploit the weaknesses (it's a given in the campaign that all supernatural monsters must have some weakness).

 

It's campy, but I don't see it as abusive. It's just part of the classic Monster Hunter / Batman schtick.

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Adding to what Trebuchet stated, I might allow it with a -3/4 or -1 Limitation of "only vs those with Vulnerability." That way, if someone doesn't have a Vulnerability, it's not effective, and if they do, well you're exploiting it big time. That could be considered the character's "niche" in the campaign.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Adding to what Trebuchet stated' date=' I might allow it with a -3/4 or -1 Limitation of "only vs those with Vulnerability." That way, if someone doesn't have a Vulnerability, it's not effective, and if they do, well you're exploiting it big time. That could be considered the character's "niche" in the campaign.[/quote']

 

I don't know.......

I think I might have to push my eyes back in my head a bit if someone handed me a character sheet with "Detect Vulnerability, only vs guys with Vulnerabilities" written on it.....

 

Shades of 'Swimming; only in liquid' here....

[Bloodstone]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Just to throw another option out there: instead of a Detect, you could build this as a very limited form of Telepathy (Only to discover Fears/Weaknesses).

 

The main down side is you won't be able to find Vulnerabilites that the target isn't himself aware of. And it doesn't work on Objects.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

You have to love Hero: never just the one way of doing it...

 

Speaking of abusive constructs, it is pretty cheap to buy a transform to GIVE a target a vulnerability to whatever you can throw at them. Ho ho ho.

[nexus]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

You have to love Hero: never just the one way of doing it...

 

Speaking of abusive constructs, it is pretty cheap to buy a transform to GIVE a target a vulnerability to whatever you can throw at them. Ho ho ho.

 

Now I feel bad. I've had PCs with both this contructs (Detect Vulnerability, VSE and Transform Target into Target with Vulnerability to my attacks).

[nexus]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I don't know.......

I think I might have to push my eyes back in my head a bit if someone handed me a character sheet with "Detect Vulnerability, only vs guys with Vulnerabilities" written on it.....

 

Shades of 'Swimming; only in liquid' here....

 

I think he was talking about Find Weakness Only vs characters with Vulnerability -1

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Now I feel bad. I've had PCs with both this contructs (Detect Vulnerability' date=' VSE and Transform Target into Target with Vulnerability to my attacks).[/quote']

 

It's a big world: so long as you don't mind me diving for cover if I see you in person

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I think there are two blended issues here. The first is "Would you allow the ability to detect a target's vulnerability at all?", and "Will you then allow the character to have a VSE attack to take advantage of that vulnerability?" This is not a lot different from "Can I have 12d6 of Telepathy?", in that it will depend on the campaign.

 

If it's going to be a game breaker, the answer should be "NO!". Only the GM can assess how much of a game breaker this will be. But let's assume you have a 12 DC cap. VSE at +1/2 means an 8d6 attack, so this characxter will effectively have 8d6 vs targets with no vulnerabilities, 12d6 vs targets with a 1.5x vulnerability and 16d6 vs a target with a 2x Vulnerability. That's a big advantage against truly vulnerable targets, but I'd almost certainly allow it if the character lacks a fallback attack to do 12DC against targets with no vulnerabilities. Whether I'd alow it as just one more Multi slot is probably a bigger question.

 

The second question is "how much will it cost?" The only break point here is 5 points (specific) or 10 points (broad). Your choice - if you take points, it only detects Vulnerabilities (the actual disad). Take it for , and it will also allow you to detect Susceptibilities and other effects which, based on specific types of attack, cause extra harm to the target.

 

If it lacks Discriminatory and Analyze, you don't actually know what he's specifically vul;nerable to, so those are musts. Absent Range, you have to tough him. Absent Sense, it requires a half phase to use. That's a pretty costly Detect, so it's not unreasonably powerful for its impact.

 

To elaborate on Sean's point, compare this with a character who instead spent the same points on Find Weakness for his main (12d6) attack. He'll always do 12d6, and often get halved, or even quartered, defenses. Maybe alowing that VSE into a Multipower isn't so bad after all, if I would have allowed FW and campaign standard DC's as an alternative.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I think he was talking about Find Weakness Only vs characters with Vulnerability -1

 

Ah, well that makes a bit more sense, now doesn't it? Don't know how I missed that :o....

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Good thoughts here, thanks all. It seems that my initial instinct that it was too cheap is spot on. I have considered the telepathy route before too, but it seemed, well, inelegant, especially when there is a "detect" power out there. But there is a lot more to consider obviously.

 

My only problem with the find weakness vs. targets w/ vulnerability is that no information is gained.

 

And since someone mentioned it, I thought I'd throw in that this particular character is based off of a monster hunter archetype.

[Mentor]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I consider both the terminology and the concept of Detect Vulnerability a tad Metagamish. I would be fine with sufficient research, investigation or Shadowing skill allowing a PC to discover a Vulnerability through roleplaying, but a discovering someone's Achilles Heel in one phase by rolling the dice just doesn't seem sporting. Using it as a Find Weakness or Telepathy SFX would be more satisfactory, but a really good description of the Power concept and SFX would be mandatory, IMHO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

Well call it Aura Vision: you can see the kirillian field around characters and objects and you can detect from the flux patterns and colours what that aura is tuned to repulse and what is likely to damage the aura.

 

I mean it has the same effect: you can see if anything is likely to be particularly effective against the target. Sounds more plausable though. Well, it does to me

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I don't know.......

I think I might have to push my eyes back in my head a bit if someone handed me a character sheet with "Detect Vulnerability, only vs guys with Vulnerabilities" written on it....

I suppose I should have clarified that by "it" I meant Find Weakness. So that the character had Find Weakness but only vs Vulnerability.

[Kirby]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I think he was talking about Find Weakness Only vs characters with Vulnerability -1

Yes. And either give it a -3/4 or -1 Limitation (it would depend on how many characters are out there that have Vulnerabilities that I would use).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I realized that again this breaks a Metarule IMO. You should not use Detect to figure out a target's Vulnerabilities. You should be using an Analyze Skill. How specific that Analyze Skill should be is up to the GM. A very generic version would be, "Analyze: Vulnerabilities," but I'm not sure I'd let such a general one into most games myself; instead you might need several versions to cover all possible Vulnerabilities (possibly Analyze: Physical Weaknesses, Analyze: Mental Weaknesses, etc.).

 

Certainly Find Weakness could be used as well or instead; it just isn't going to allow you to know more about the target. However, it could very well have a Limitation (as stated above) and/or a RSR based on an appropriate Analyze Skill.

[OddHat]

Re: Detect Vulnerability

 

I realized that again this breaks a Metarule IMO. You should not use Detect to figure out a target's Vulnerabilities. You should be using an Analyze Skill. How specific that Analyze Skill should be is up to the GM. A very generic version would be, "Analyze: Vulnerabilities," but I'm not sure I'd let such a general one into most games myself; instead you might need several versions to cover all possible Vulnerabilities (possibly Analyze: Physical Weaknesses, Analyze: Mental Weaknesses, etc.).

 

Certainly Find Weakness could be used as well or instead; it just isn't going to allow you to know more about the target. However, it could very well have a Limitation (as stated above) and/or a RSR based on an appropriate Analyze Skill.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I've use Detect Magic (Discrim, Analyze) and Analyze Magic plus KS: Supernatural Monsters for something like this. In a more traditional game, Detect Meta-Powers (Discrim, Analyze) plus Analyze Powers and KS: Superpowers should do it.