More on Block and STR

[Chris-M]

I thought Erik's question over on the 5ER rules board was interesting:

 

5ER, p383 ... the GM must apply common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance when determining what attacks a character can Block.

 

A common circumstance in my games involves a weaker character attempting to Block a stronger character's Strike. Besides the general advice above, are there any rules or guidance you can offer to systematically determine the maximum strength difference in which a Block makes sense?

Steve answered (short version) that there wasn't a specific rule about this, and suggested some places to look for guidelines. Intrigued, I discuss the issue and propose a quick house rule approach in an article on my game design blog. Take a look and see what you thinK (there are also a couple entries on the Champions campaign I'm getting to run that you may find interesting):

 

http://www.whiterose.org/butisitfun/archives/2005/08/block_party.html

[MitchellS]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Block doesn't bother me. As is stated a block can be nothing more than moving out of the way of the blow to a position which gives you a faster retalitory strike. I'm generally becoming very rules-lite in my playing and there's more than enough rules in the core and genre books to keep my head spinning.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Right. I've always considered "Block" as a maneuver to cover a range of things from actually physically stopping an attack to re-directing it (over a shoulder or to the side) to simply briefly 'fixing' yourself against an opponent and twisting your body away from his momentum. As such, the idea of STR v STR never occured to me.

 

But I'm happy with what we've been doing.

 

Nice work, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Like many things in Hero, what we call it and what it is are not necessarily the same. Might be interesting to have another manouevre: parry that has marginally better bonuses (say +1/0) and DOES require a similar strength (say up to double or even as little as STR+10).

 

Or we could start calling Block 'Evade' or somesuch

[ghost-angel]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Like Sean says, what we call it and what it is are different, or can be.

 

Like Energy Blast, the SFX applied mean more than the term used for the maneuver/power.

 

Block might as well be called: Last second attempt to not make the incoming attack splatter me.

 

Whether that be catching the guys fist, delfecting the sword or moving in just the right way to have the bullet miss you by mere centimeters.

 

this is one of those places where you should concern yourself less with the nomeclature and more with the drama of the story.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Hmmm......

 

this thread has me wondering......

How many skill levels--- or other suitable construct-- would it take to simulate a power that was "unblockable?" Either you CV'd out of the way, or you got hammered.....

 

Or just put it AOE and be done with it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Hmmm......

 

this thread has me wondering......

How many skill levels--- or other suitable construct-- would it take to simulate a power that was "unblockable?" Either you CV'd out of the way, or you got hammered.....

 

Or just put it AOE and be done with it?

lots and yes.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Sure, AOE would be the way to go.....

 

But I was thinking about creating something like a 'smart bullet.' At this point, I think it's going to be a matter of tacking on many, many levels with that specific weapon and ammo (it's for a sci-fi thing), as the old 'slow, self guided bullet' whose movement you must track, course correct, etc, is decidedly _not_ what I have in mind.

 

And for that, AOE is far to odd......

I suppose I could go with that new 'Selective,' but I'm really trying to avoid letting that into my games. Far, far, FAR too much potential for munchkinism, and I've got two players (oddly, the comic book fans) who just don't need the goading.....

[Chris-M]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Yeah, good point, Sean. I tend to think of Block as requiring some level of physical contact, which of course it doesn't unless you choose to interpret it that way (there's support for this in the Fantasy Hero rules and the way Block is generally discussed). But, yeah, the core rules state what they state.

 

The "Parry" maneuver is nice idea. Another approach might be to have a separate "Evade" that's a limited form of "Dodge." I myself am not overly concerned about it -- I tend to lean toward a rules light approach as well -- but it's fun to ponder these things.

[prestidigitator]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Even a literal block should not be very dependent upon Str. In martial arts you learn to block an attack with very little regard for the force/momentum behind the attack. You can block a baseball bat swung at you with full force if you do it carefully enough. Blocks really should deflect attacks or block them in such a way as to use a great deal of leverage to your advantage. If you find yourself directly resisting the attacker's blow you are probably doing something very wrong (in Hero I would just consider this a failed Block, and you will take the damage; maybe just to the arm, leg, focus or whatever you are using to Block if the roll is close).

[Chris-M]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

I could buy that argument for Martial Block, especially if the character had a certain number of points in the style, but not for the basic Block maneuver.

[Sean Waters]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

A way to do STR v STR block as a power would be to buy (say) armour (or DRed) and make it contingent on two RSR rolls: one OCV v OCV and one STR v STR.

 

One great idea I've seen for shields is buying them as force wall: up to a point they block all damage, but over that point they get knocked aside to leave you unprotected. That kinda words on a STR v STR basis - the shield would stop damage up to around a certain power of attack/level of strength, but not above.

 

Of course that means spending points, but there is no reason shields, or even weapons could not be constructed that way in heroic games too.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

The way I see it, Area of Effect doesn't make an attack unblockable. It makes an attack undodgeable (you must now actually Dive For Cover to get away from it)

 

To make an attack unblockable, use Indirect.

 

I've use these rules since the 4th edition and they work great.

 

However, there is a way to block unblockable attacks. Add Hardened to a Martial Block maneuver or to some block Skill Levels, and you can now block even Indirect attacks. Same goes for Missile Deflection.

[OddHat]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Officially, Indirect Hand Attacks can be used as unblockable punches, as can AOE:1 Hex Accurate attacks (by the rules, you can not block an AOE Attack).

 

I've been in a campaign where a character effectively had Invisible Power Effects on his STR (he had invisible force tentacles); I considered that attack to bypass blocks, dodges, and DFCs, as the target usually had no way of knowing where the attack was coming from. However, that was a house rules situation, and another GM may have interpretted the situation differently.

[prestidigitator]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

I could buy that argument for Martial Block' date=' especially if the character had a certain number of points in the style, but not for the basic Block maneuver.[/quote']

Why? Martial versions of the ordinary Maneuvers basically just add a little more CV, damage, or Str. They don't do anything fundamentally radical. There are some Martial Maneuvers that do things you can't quite normally do with basic Maneuvers (e.g. Legsweep and Shove), but these are totally new mechanics, not variations of existing ones. So Martial Grab is just a normal Grab with more Str; Martial Dodge has some more CV bonuses; the Martial versions of Strike add CV bonuses and/or extra DCs. Martial Arts, for the most part, mean you just have better versions of the normal Maneuvers, not ones that totally change the mechanics.

[Chris-M]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Totally cool idea, Sean.

 

Stidg, your point is totally valid, but I'm looking at it from a special effects perspective (which may not be the right way to look at it). Many of the things you talked about earlier -- blocking a serious attack from a baseball bat without going STR-v-STR or injuring yourself, for example -- are things that require a LOT of specialized training. The basic maneuvers are things that, in theory, anyone can do.

[TheEmerged]

Re: More on Block and STR

 

Another classic example of a "block" against an opponent of a much higher strength is the common trick of using an object to jar a large monster's mouth open.

 

RE: "Unblockable" attacks. As mentioned, AE:1H and Indirect are good ways to simulate this.

 

However, you can often achieve something very close to this simply with 3-6 skill levels, depending on how wide the CV range is in your campaign. My 600-ish point rewrite of Ironclad, for example, has 4 of these levels. Personally I've begun adopting the same cost structure as PSL's for limited CSL's...