Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Read page 35 of the rulebook. It specifically states that the 3 pt CSL can only be applied as DCV vs the same types of attacks for which it could increase OCV. And it has a specific example of a swordfighting martial arts level which can increase DCV in HTH, but not in range combat. It's right there in the rule books. So all 10 of your 3 pt CSLs with MA are worth nothing vs ranged attacks.

Well, okay; you're half right. Versus ranged combat, if I can't use M-Strike CSL in DCV, I still can use the manoeuver's defense bonus, plus the shield's CSLs if I use the HTH. That's still a 14 DCV, 18 OCV, as I have stated some posts before. I like those 3-pts levels, but that's not all I got. And the Martial Dodge affects all attacks, so I can put everything in DCV when I'm doing it.

 

And if I Block/Deflect, I can use all those CSLs (see page 265), because they're in OCV.

 

(Yeah, the defense rules of those 2 and 3-pts CSLs do surprise me, because they're quite easily bypassed, like buying 5 pts CSL with ½ worth of limitations, but I grant you your point, Milenial Master.)

 

Page 28 of the Champions Universe specifically states that Legendary Humans can reach 30 in physical stats. And they don't come any more legendary than Captain America.

I guess I won't play in the "Champion Universe" which title means exactly that. Normal humans that can lift 3 520 lbs (14 080 when pushing) off the ground are too much for me. People are quite tough out there. They do not need superheroes, in my humble opinion.

 

But you know what? One man's meat is another one's poison, mortal.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

He's not going to listen, Gary. Its obvious at this point he'd rather ignore the rules and stated genre conventions just so he won't have to admit he's wrong. I've seen these people before.

 

Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

 

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Quite constructive Starlord. Rather than continuing our discussion, you're being an exellent cheerleader. Nucleon is not impressed.

 

 

The opinion of a person who constantly refers to himself in third person and others as 'mortal' isn't very impressive to me either.

 

...and I'd think for the 'all-powerful' being you claim to be you'd know that:

 

A. I've been an active and meaningful participant in this thread

B. Gary is correct about the rules

C. It's 'excellent' with a 'c', not exellent.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

This is exactly how our group does it. Concept and schtick are more important than CVs, defenses or damage dice. The players communicate amongst themselves to avoid stepping on another player's toes. In our campaign, CVs vary from 8 to 15, defenses spread from 12 PD to 34, and SPDs go from 4 to 9. Trust me, nobody feels unimportant or useless if it's being done right.

 

We also look for ways to make each other look good in combat, rather than trying to outshine the other characters. When 5 or 6 players are all trying to help each other do cool things, everybody has fun. And it leads to a powerful sense of camaraderie and teamwork that has to be experienced to be believed.

 

I need you to come over and teach my group something.

They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

 

Their DEX war started when the Maritlal Artist was slower than the Mage. The mage left and a mentalist and a combat monster showed up. Neither were faster than him, but both were as fast as him, so immediatly he starts buying DEX and Speed. The Brick, tired of being the slowest, bought dex and speed. Slowly everyone has been creeping up the DEX/SPD ladder until we get the group with an average DEX of 28 and an average SPD of 6. It is darn near impossible to use premade anything against them. They punked Mechanon in 2 turns. He just couldn't touch them without spreading so much he didn't do enough damage to stun anyone. So after tonights climactic battle, we are retiring the camgaign and starting a new one where everyone tells me a concept and we decide how to make it. This way we have no DEX war.

 

John Spencer

[Starlord]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

I need you to come over and teach my group something.

They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

 

Their DEX war started when the Maritlal Artist was slower than the Mage. The mage left and a mentalist and a combat monster showed up. Neither were faster than him, but both were as fast as him, so immediatly he starts buying DEX and Speed. The Brick, tired of being the slowest, bought dex and speed. Slowly everyone has been creeping up the DEX/SPD ladder until we get the group with an average DEX of 28 and an average SPD of 6. It is darn near impossible to use premade anything against them. They punked Mechanon in 2 turns. He just couldn't touch them without spreading so much he didn't do enough damage to stun anyone. So after tonights climactic battle, we are retiring the camgaign and starting a new one where everyone tells me a concept and we decide how to make it. This way we have no DEX war.

 

John Spencer

 

Ouch, thats tough.

 

I think it has to do with respecting the team and, especially, everyone else's character not just your own. That's why we had so much fun and we're able to play and be happy on the same campaign for 6+ years.

[Catacomb]

Don't retire the campaign, just bring it to their level.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Catacomb

Don't retire the campaign, just bring it to their level.

Too much work. We play every other week and I still find it hard to find the time to make and tweak enough villians to keep it fresh. It also means I can't run any organization involving agents because they mop the floor with them. The group(of 7 players) have four members with AOE attacks. Another is a mentalist who will drop one mook a phase(more or less). Another usually has 14+ DCV and can two hit a mook. The last WANTS them to shoot him so he can absorb the energy into his endurance reserve.

 

No, we are starting a new campaign. Three people have characters partially done and the current average DEX is 21. I am much happier with the characters this time around.

 

John Spencer

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, okay; you're half right. Versus ranged combat, if I can't use M-Strike CSL in DCV, I still can use the manoeuver's defense bonus, plus the shield's CSLs if I use the HTH. That's still a 14 DCV, 18 OCV, as I have stated some posts before. I like those 3-pts levels, but that's not all I got. And the Martial Dodge affects all attacks, so I can put everything in DCV when I'm doing it.

 

And if I Block/Deflect, I can use all those CSLs (see page 265), because they're in OCV.

 

(Yeah, the defense rules of those 2 and 3-pts CSLs do surprise me, because they're quite easily bypassed, like buying 5 pts CSL with ½ worth of limitations, but I grant you your point, Milenial Master.)

 

From the FAQ:

 

Q: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack?

 

A: No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn’t a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat.

 

So those cheapo 3 pt levels can't be used with Sweep vs agents. Interesting.

 

Q: If a character applies a Combat Skill Level to increase his DCV, do the changes to his DCV last until his next Phase?

 

A: They last until he decides to switch the CSL to something else — definitely until the next Phase, and possibly longer. However, that doesn’t change what they apply to; a 3-point CSL with swords doesn’t improve a character’s DCV versus arrows, no matter how long it lasts.

 

More confirmation that 3 pointers with MA don't affect range attacks.

 

Q: If a character buys a three-point CSL with a single weapon that has both HTH and Ranged uses, can he apply that Level to improve his DCV against any sort of attack?

 

A: If a character has bought a 3-point CSL with a specific type of weapon (e.g., some 3-point Levels for bonuses with Rapiers), then he could apply that Level to improve DCV against the type of attack (HTH or Ranged) for which he uses the Level in a given Phase. If he applies the Level to improve his OCV with throwing the Rapier in one of his Phases, then in that same Phase he could use some of the Levels to improve his DCV versus Ranged attacks, but not his DCV against HTH attacks. It’s up to the GM to decide whether the character should be allowed to Abort to use his 3-point one-weapon CSLs to provide DCV, but generally the GM should not allow this, since it makes the CSLs too much like 5-point Levels.

 

So you can't assign the levels with shield to DCV vs range attacks unless you're throwing the shield that phase. And if you're throwing the shield, you don't get the maneuver bonuses for martial strike.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I guess I won't play in the "Champion Universe" which title means exactly that. Normal humans that can lift 3 520 lbs (14 080 when pushing) off the ground are too much for me. People are quite tough out there. They do not need superheroes, in my humble opinion.

 

But you know what? One man's meat is another one's poison, mortal.

 

A man named Paul Anderson had a back lift of 6,270 pounds in 1957.

 

http://www.payh.org/about.htm

 

I don't know if this qualifies as lifting in Champions terms, but it's a real life person who got over 3 tons off the ground. I think we can safely say that Cap would be stronger than this guy.

[Morningstar]

Everyone also has to remember we are talking about "normal in a COMIC BOOK universe. Even the gadgeteer science geek looks like an Olympic athlete and an underwear model rolled into one. Normal people die falling down stairs and during baseball spring training drills. Do I even have to bring up the womien??

[Shaun Hendricks]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Interesting...

 

Originally posted by Starlord

Ah. See, being in the Champions forum I always assume that we're referring to the Supers genre.

 

You have more faith in forum threads than I do sir...

 

I never encountered any major problems playing without limits in all my years playing HERO in the supers genre. However, at lower point totals I COMPLETELY agree with you. While I have far less experience playing Fantasy HERO, we did find that strict AP, CV, PD, ED, etc., limits had to be set. My experience is the system starts breaking down around the 200 point and under level. Of course, maybe others had different problems.

 

This is very true, the problem is exascerbated at the lower levels. Having said that, it's why I don't mind 'Agents' even up around the 400-500 point mark. This is about James Bond level of skill. In the end, what we've really accomplished by tossing out point maximums is an end to the 'silly disads' and 'limitations for limitations sake' just to bring point costs down. The characters build faster, play better and everyone seems more flexible to charater manipulation due to plot constraints. It makes it feel more like an authored story as well as having many of the trappings of movies/TV perceptions. (You also can enforce the disads a bit harsher and more regularly since the players aren't as worried about overall point balance and that the disads are there because conception has put them there. It also gives me the choice as a GM to give them disads during the campaign if they are using a "Hero Bonus" and not have to give them an ability to counter the added disad cost, thus I don't feel guilty! )

 

I'm toying with the idea of creating a SUPER AGENT VILLIAN that can do just about anything because he's built on unlimited points (that's his ability) yet because his CV's, Skills and 'powers' are down with the players, he's still fightable and can be engaged by the players without them feeling like they are going after Mechanon!

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

So you can't assign the levels with shield to DCV vs range attacks unless you're throwing the shield that phase. And if you're throwing the shield, you don't get the maneuver bonuses for martial strike. [/b]

 

The 4 CSLs with the Shield (if you remember the character I posted) are the 5 pts-type, Gary. They are for use with the Shield Multipower. Which makes your point moot.

 

You seem all numbers and no spirit, Milenial Master. Once again, not a GM trait. That's the impression that Nucleon gets.

 

Everybody can find rules and counter-rules that suits his/her current argument. In these case, common sense must rule. If the fact that Blocking and Deflecting does not seem the same move for you for exemple, you should take some distance from the book, and try to make the part of things. Some times the official rules apply, sometime the optional ones are preferable, all in the same campaign.

 

Comes a time where the book must stop thinking for you.

 

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

A man named Paul Anderson had a back lift of 6,270 pounds in 1957.

 

I don't know if this qualifies as lifting in Champions terms, but it's a real life person who got over 3 tons off the ground. I think we can safely say that Cap would be stronger than this guy.

 

Interesting. Let's say it qualifies. Here is how I see it.

 

6270 lbs is 2850 kg. It takes a STR of 32-33 to move that.

 

Now, is it believable that Paul Anderson "pushed" (as per the HERO rules) to do that? Is that acceptable?

 

That would give him a 22-23 STR. The strongest man in the world. That seems okay for Cap.

 

What do you think?

 

 

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

The opinion of a person who constantly refers to himself in third person and others as 'mortal' isn't very impressive to me either.

 

...and I'd think for the 'all-powerful' being you claim to be you'd know that:

 

A. I've been an active and meaningful participant in this thread

B. Gary is correct about the rules

C. It's 'excellent' with a 'c', not exellent.

 

Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby.

 

And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better.

 

Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt.

 

"Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh?

 

Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language. So have a care, mortal.

[Stargazer]

it seems, starlord, that u didnt catch Nucleon's way of writing...

wich is basicaly in character...

 

who cares if he speaks of himslef in the 3rd person or calls others mortals??

it just for theatrical...

and pointing out gramatical errors the way u did to Nukleon is something i find insulting... when u dont know where someone comes from u shouldnt say anything and take it as a typo...

i would very much like to see u post in Nucleon's mother tongue... and see how perfect u write.....and if utake someone's profile that seriously..u defnetly a long vacation.....

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

I need you to come over and teach my group something.

They don't work as a team. There opinoins of the other characters are...low. They think it is funny when some gets punked around. And they all try to out do everyone else(more or less).

That is sad. I've played in similar campaigns myself; where the players treat it almost as a wargame or character-design competition rather than as role-playing.

 

I think one of the reasons our group works so well is because we are all friends above and beyond Champions. We go to movies and backyard barbeques with each other even if we're not role-playing. And because we like each other, we want to make sure we're not stepping on anyone's toes. It also doesn't hurt that we all like each other's characters. There is not a single character in our group that I can't say "That's a cool character" and mean it. I would happily play any other hero on our team.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

The 4 CSLs with the Shield (if you remember the character I posted) are the 5 pts-type, Gary. They are for use with the Shield Multipower. Which makes your point moot.

 

You seem all numbers and no spirit, Milenial Master. Once again, not a GM trait. That's the impression that Nucleon gets.

 

Everybody can find rules and counter-rules that suits his/her current argument. In these case, common sense must rule. If the fact that Blocking and Deflecting does not seem the same move for you for exemple, you should take some distance from the book, and try to make the part of things. Some times the official rules apply, sometime the optional ones are preferable, all in the same campaign.

 

Comes a time where the book must stop thinking for you.

 

 

At 5 pts per CSL, they lose their biggest advantage over dex which is cheapness. +3 Dex for 6 net pts after factoring the spd savings is much superior.

 

You were the one deciding that CSLs for some reason were more cost effective than dex. They aren't, unless you house rule them with more capabilities than they really have. I'm sorry you seem to be taking offense that I use the rules as written to support me. We have to have a basis and point of reference when discussing this stuff, and the written rules seems like a good place for me.

 

Philosophically, there are problems with allowing combined missile deflection/block.

 

1) Your characters 3 pt levels with MA still can't be used with deflection. Check the FAQ.

 

2) There are many possible special effects for deflection that don't translate to block. For example, a person who sets up a warp field that teleports the ranged attack harmlessly, or a person who catches the projectile. You would have to go on a case by case basis for which special effects allow the combined block/deflection, and which ones don't.

 

3) Even if you allow (2), you get a fundamental fairness issue. Why should Cap be allowed the combined maneuver while the person with the gloves of snaring isn't? They're paying the same points for the effect, but Cap gets a huge additional capability that the other guy isn't getting.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Interesting. Let's say it qualifies. Here is how I see it.

 

6270 lbs is 2850 kg. It takes a STR of 32-33 to move that.

 

Now, is it believable that Paul Anderson "pushed" (as per the HERO rules) to do that? Is that acceptable?

 

That would give him a 22-23 STR. The strongest man in the world. That seems okay for Cap.

 

What do you think?

 

First, Cap would be stronger than Paul Anderson. That brings him to 25 or so right away if not more. Second, it's quite possible that Anderson "pushed" for less than 10 full points. Heroic level people can push less than Superheroic level people. He may have plausibly pushed for only 5 pts instead.

[Nucleon]

I really hate to do that, but I put this as a mean to get off Cap's case. Here is a ±250 Cap, fresh out of the lab and equiped with a round, mysterious shield (prior to that, during training, he had the "other shield" and a pistol).

 

It looks terrible I know, but you get the idea.

 

Cost Char Value

10 STR 20

30 DEX 20

20 CON 20

12 BODY 16

8 INT 18

20 EGO 20

10 PRE 20

3 COM 16

4 PD 8

0 ED 4

10 SPD 4

0 REC 8

0 END 40

0 STUN 36

 

Cost Powers and Stuff

10,5 Armor 7 PD/ED, 14- act, OIF scale shirt

8 Running +4" (10" total)

17 L-Support; E-Breathe, Safe in int, Heat/Cold/Rads, Immune to all E. Diseases

20 Shield Multipower 40 pts, OAF Shield

U2 Missile Deflection, All R. Attacks, Us.at Range, OAF

U1,7 E-Blast 8d6 vs PD, Lim. Range, OAF

U1,9 HTH Attack +3d6 (7d6 tot), all AP, ½ END HTH, OAF

U1,9 Armor 10 PD/ED, Hardened OAF

13 Generic M-Arts, us/w. Shield; Martial Block, Dodge and Strike

9 CSL; +3 w. Generic M-Arts

8 CSL; +2 w. All Combat, OAF shield

3 1 Level w. Acrobatics, Breakfall and Climbing, related by athletism. (at 14-)

27 Skills; 7 skills at 13-, plus Ps; Illustrator at 14-

 

Eventually, Cap will evoluate into what we know him for. Taking 550 pts as an objective, Cap would gain;

 

86 STR, DEX & CON 23, PD & ED 10, SPD 5, END & STUN 50. All bought at NCM cost, and expensive as hell. Its the concept here, fellas.

15,8 A +20 boost on the shield Multipower, described as mastery over its possibilities. It would translate as; -Reflection possibilities, -AP on the E-Blast, -10d6 AP total HTH, -7" of Kb Resistance linked to the Armor slot, plus a new slot; 50% Dam Red vs P- and D-dam, all resistant.

8 Completing the generic M-Arts w. Offensive Strike and Throw, taken relatively early.

10 10 pts worth of Mental Defense, described as Sense of Duty.

5 5 pts worth of Lack of Weaknesses.

21 +7 CSLs with Generic M-arts (10 total)

25 +5 CSLs with Shield Multipower

20 +2 Overall Levels

8 +2 CSLs with all Combat, OAF shield, described as Shield Mastery too. (4 total)

6 4 PSL with the E-Blast (for that bouncing off effect)

3 Another Level with A, B, C. (athletism)

32 A luxury; 2 CSLs w. All combat, usable at range on 8 others (only), Incantations. A team with Cap becomes better (Or should he just Aid DEX...)

60 Exhaustive Skills and Perks, including Defense Manoeuver II. Easily a 50 more (for a total of 600 pts) if such things as contacts, motorbike and Avenger Perks are considered

 

This is in no superagile or superstrong mutant but a tactician and defense expert, who should hold his own against any form of threat. A top normal in a world of superheroes, a relic.

 

He is by no way an invincible character, simply because Cap is not. But he is no pushover, as you can see.

 

I now know that I maybe of the minority here who thinks normals do have a place in a Super world. Well that's allright. The whole point of this exercise is to prove that high DEX is not the only way.

 

I shall not talk of Cap against in this thread.

 

(And Gary, I know you disagree, but please indulge me with that wish.)

[Stargazer]

can we talk about batman instead??? just kidding:D

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I shall not talk of Cap against in this thread.

 

(And Gary, I know you disagree, but please indulge me with that wish.)

 

Did you want a critique of the character? If you don't, I'll be happy to drop the thread.

[Nucleon]

Okay, this is still about Cap, but gary posted these before I posted my Cap here, so I Nucleon should respond politely.

 

Originally posted by Gary

At 5 pts per CSL, they lose their biggest advantage over dex which is cheapness. +3 Dex for 6 net pts after factoring the spd savings is much superior.

I think even your Cap should have 5-pts CSLs, or any other CSL for that matter. They must exists for some reason.

 

You were the one deciding that CSLs for some reason were more cost effective than dex. They aren't, unless you house rule them with more capabilities than they really have. I'm sorry you seem to be taking offense that I use the rules as written to support me. We have to have a basis and point of reference when discussing this stuff, and the written rules seems like a good place for me.

 

1) Your characters 3 pt levels with MA still can't be used with deflection. Check the FAQ.

 

Don't be sorry, its alright. Check on page 265, top of the page; I can use these lvls to deflect, as long as they are put in OCV. No FAQ need here.

 

There are many possible special effects for deflection that don't translate to block. For example, a person who sets up a warp field that teleports the ranged attack harmlessly, or a person who catches the projectile. You would have to go on a case by case basis for which special effects allow the combined block/deflection, and which ones don't.

 

I doubt your guy in the first exemple also blocks a fist with the same Warp Field. But he may be, you know, if he bought some M-Arts That include a block) "usable w. Warp Field". The person who catches the projectile is closer in this way to my Cap; I would allow it in his case.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Heroic level people can push less than Superheroic level people. He may have plausibly pushed for only 5 pts instead.

 

That's an interesting point of view, but I prefer mine.

 

As I said, you can find rules to do your thing.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Did you want a critique of the character? If you don't, I'll be happy to drop the thread.

 

Well Gary, it's obvious that each one of us stands by his gun. I doubt I will influence you, as I doubt you will influence me. We're both content with the Status Quo, let's leave it at that.

 

You can critique my character, of course (you already did that with the blueprint I posted before), but I won't respond to defend or justify it, even if I find the critique interesting.

 

I guess we will have to agree on one thing about Cap; We Disagree.

 

Nucleon can live with that.

 

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Stargazer

can we talk about batman instead???

Why bother? Cap is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Batman is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Daredevil is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Fortunately we do get some variance. Nightwing is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD and Ironfist is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD.

 

The whole point of using an extended characteristic range is so that you can show true variances in the characters (Cap can have a 30 STR, Batman a 25 STR, and Daredevil a 20, for example). If I wanted all the characters to have virtually the same meaningless stats and to go at the exact same time I would just play D&D.