Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Nucleon]

This is an offshoot of the Thor/Supes threat, that I thought was worth a thread of its own.

 

Do you give your characters abusive amounts of DEX?

 

Nucleon saw many abuses of this good, good investment. "Thors" with 27-30 DEX, Power Armors that makes you more agile than when you're naked and the likes.

 

There are substitutes to a caricatural DEX; Lightning Reflexes, Combat Skills levels and some skills like Acrobatics and Breakfall may be what a character have to appear agile.

 

In our campaigns, CSLs (and PSLs) have preseance over DEX. 6-8 levels of CSLs are common, reaching as high as 20 for the 3-pts martial art CSL. One of my players, Mr. Chin, is a normal who is the Pro From Dover in Martial Arts. He has a 20 DEX (Maximum human), SPD 4 (ditto) and 20 levels of CSLs, Lighting reflexes and Combat manoeuver. I don't remember him being touched when he didn't want to (but for Area attacks and BOECVs).

 

Now if he had a 40 DEX instead of 20, he would have a CV of 13, in comparison with its actual 7+20. No match.

 

Here is some scales from your Friendly Cosmic Nucleon;

 

Spiderman; Now that's agile; A DEX of 30-36 seems okay.

Beast (X-Men fame); 27-32 DEX

Black Panther; 24-27 DEX

Cap American; 21-23 DEX. And a truckload of CSLs

Thor; DEX 17-18. He has other ressources.

Iron Man; Dex 14-15, in or out of armor.

Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.

 

What about thee, Mortals?

[Nuadha]

I won it. Hands down. One of my characters has a 33 Dex. That's his main ability. He also has several combat levels with his sword. He never misses.

[Marchwarden]

Marchwarden has a 38 DEX. Pretty much everything else I design kicks in at 23 unless I'm playing a dedicated mentalist.

 

Highest DEX I've ever seen was on an NPC villain/anti-hero named Solstice. He was a 450-point character (high power) whose "powers" were having a 60 STR, 60 DEX, 60 CON, flight and a wee bit of damage resistance. He was also rather young, and basically a decent guy; his Psych Lims would have been appropriate for a hero, except that "Loyal to his Friends (Common, Total)" gets problematic when your friends are a pack of criminals with a variety of mental issues and substance abuse problems.

 

Frustrating to the heroes, since it's obvious that the kid's not bad at heart, but is obviously in with the wrong crowd. But, as he says:

 

"You don't understand. They need me."

[Derek Hiemforth]

DEX is the most useful and cost-effective item you can purchase. I highly recommend buying it up as high as your character conception (and GM) will allow.

 

6 points of DEX costs 18 Character Points. For your 18 point investment, you get:

• +0.6 SPD (6 points)
  
• +2 OCV (2 CSLs with All Combat, Can't be used for DCV (-1/2); 11 points)
  
• +2 DCV (2 CSLs with DCV; 10 points)
  
• +6 Lightning Reflexes with All Actions (9 points)
  
• +1 with All Agility Skills (5 points)

41 points worth of stuff for 18 points. Not too shabby.

 

Of course, this is just number-crunching and game mechanickhood. It shouldn't take precedence over character concept and campaign guidelines.

[Hermit]

Well, one man's abusive is another's norm and vice versa.

 

As for myself, I prefer to kind of balance it out, but our standard dex seems to fall from the 20 to 28 range, leaning towards the lower end mostly. Archetypes do matter, most Bricks and Mentalists tend towards the lower side, and Martial Artists and Speedsters on the upper. Again, that's only a tendency.

 

I think the highest we ever got for a PC was a 35 dex and that was a high powered campaign.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Hermit

Well, one man's abusive is another's norm and vice versa.

 

As for myself, I prefer to kind of balance it out, but our standard dex seems to fall from the 20 to 28 range, leaning towards the lower end mostly. Archetypes do matter, most Bricks and Mentalists tend towards the lower side, and Martial Artists and Speedsters on the upper. Again, that's only a tendency.

 

I think the highest we ever got for a PC was a 35 dex and that was a high powered campaign.

 

This is generally how I did it as well. Also, if the concept seemed more in line with high DEX, less CSLs thats how it was done.

 

We never played with any limits other than total points, and never had a problem with DEX race, because we as players (and our GM) thought it was important we each had our own schtick.

[lemming]

Haven't been involved in an actual DEX war. I've had characters from 8 Dex to 53 Dex. (The 53/12 was in a game with a 72/14 so I wouldn't call it an actuall war...)

 

Current games, nope. Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by lemming

Current games, nope. Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

 

:eek:

[Monolith]

I always base my Marvel conversions off of the old MSH game.

 

Amazing: 11-12 base CV

Incredible: 10 base CV

Remarkable: 8-9 base CV

Excellent: 7 base CV

Good: 5-6 base CV

Typical: 3-4 base CV

[Silbeg]

Abusive DEX?

 

In my campaign, there is a character, Impulse, who is a 53 DEX (though only 4 SPD, still haven't figured that one out).

 

He is, far and beyond, the most dextrous character I have seen, and has pushed a few other characters to increase their own (to the 28-33 zone).

 

Now, his concept is that he has trancendental reaction speeds, which explains the high DEX (and other powers as well), but he has been a most frustrating character to deal with in game. Granted, he has been intentionally gimped by his player so that he wouldn't be overly broken. He is the consumate agent-buster, with his multiple move-by attacks, but has had only mixed results otherwise.

 

He is also a character that tends to do more damage to himself than his opponents do to him.

 

Silbeg.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Monolith

I always base my Marvel conversions off of the old MSH game.

 

Amazing: 11-12 base CV

Incredible: 10 base CV

Remarkable: 8-9 base CV

Excellent: 7 base CV

Good: 5-6 base CV

Typical: 3-4 base CV

 

Good man! Good man!

 

There is no "abuse of Dex." There's nothing wrong with having high Dex scores until it turns into a player vs player war. That sort of thing isn't limited to Dex, either. I've seen players say "Oh gee, Bob has a 15D6 Energy Blast. Now I've got to raise my EB to 16D6 to stay ahead of him." That's a problem, regardless of what stat you're dealing with.

 

I've always thought that CSLs and Lightning Reflexes were meant to complement your Dex. There's no reason to waste points on Lightning Reflexes and CSLs when the only thing you're trying to do is mimic having a higher Dex. To me, it makes as much sense as vegetarians who eat tofu burgers that are supposed to taste like meat, and then take dietary supplements that give them all the vitamins that they miss by not eating meat. Ultimately, they end up saying "eating meat is wrong!" To me, that's the same argument I get from the low Dex crowd. "A high Dex is wrong!"

 

Pass me the steak and my 38 Dex, please.

[Fedifensor]

DEX costs

 

5th edition HERO had one big failing. The sacred cows of characteristic costs weren't touched, which means DEX (and to a lesser extent, STR) is the most cost-effective buy in the game.

 

Upping the cost to 4 (or even, dare I say it, 5) points per point of DEX would bring this monster under control, and encourage people to buy levels instead.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: DEX costs

 

Originally posted by Fedifensor

5th edition HERO had one big failing. The sacred cows of characteristic costs weren't touched, which means DEX (and to a lesser extent, STR) is the most cost-effective buy in the game.

 

Upping the cost to 4 (or even, dare I say it, 5) points per point of DEX would bring this monster under control, and encourage people to buy levels instead.

 

But this assumes far too much. For one, it assumes that Dex skill levels are worth 5 points per +1. I don't think they are. It assumes that Lightning Reflexes is priced correctly. I don't think it is. It assumes that CSLs are just OCV/DCV related. They aren't. It also assumes that Dex should cost the same as the sum of its parts. It shouldn't.

 

Combat levels have far greater versatility than people use them for. Just because your average Champions gamer doesn't think to put his levels into damage doesn't mean that Dex is overpriced (by the way, Dex doesn't add to damage, but CSLs can--therefore, Dex isn't just a cheaper form of CSL).

 

Lightning Reflexes were a Steve Long invention back in Dark Champions, but it's something that every Champs player I know created on his own, before ever seeing Dark Champs. I myself created Lightning Reflexes (but I think I just called it "Increased Initiative") before running across a used copy of DC. Everyone and their dog who created LR did it by limiting Dex. The real complaint I had with the official version is that I thought it was overpriced.

 

Dex shouldn't cost as much as the sum of its parts. Quite simply, it's always been the case in Champions that when you limit a power to get a specific effect (like Lightning Reflexes), you err on the side of too expensive. Does Not Affect Figured Characteristics is only -1/2, despite the fact that only Dex fits that cost scheme. Every other stat (Str, Body) should be a -1 or so, and Con loses just about all of its effectiveness, so the limitation there should be even higher. But again, you err on the side of too expensive. As a result, adding together the costs of Dex's components gives you a higher cost than Dex is worth. It's like stealing a car and selling off the parts. They're worth more than the car is whole.

[Blue]

I meet with my players today to wrap up our Vampire game. Theoretically we will set up a date to gather and start the Champions campaign (and probably build characters since a few are game-slackers or just unfamiliar with the rules).

 

In a perfect world, they will set their DEX around 20-23, but I have allowed them to go as high as 35 as long as the character is balanced. I hope they are amenable.

 

In the DEX abuse column, put the one villain I made in my old campaign who had a 40 DEX. She was a "Tigra" type, and was pretty much all Dex, Speed, claws and sex appeal. She also had the campaign's highest COM. I plan to make less outrageous villains this time... at least to start with.

[Haerandir]

The higest DEX on any PC I've ever played was 33, and he was a speedster/martial artist. So, I figure that's not unreasonable. My martial artists generally clock in at 28, my bricks anywhere from 10-18 (I played a 20 DEX brick once, but he was a 'martial brick'). All of my other characters are generally in the 14-23 range.

 

The simple fact is that it's hard for me to resist the siren song of DEX, especially DEX 23, because Derek's right. It's incredibly efficient in terms of what it buys you. But, I think there are valid arguments for keeping DEX low as a general principle. There is nothing wrong with having a high DEX, if your concept requires it. But, whenever you play a character with a DEX of 28 or more, you risk encouraging someone else (another player, the GM, the author of the next Enemies book) to make a character with a high DEX. That person may do so out of a sense of competition, or needing to keep up with the 'new DEX standard' or simply because they think it's acceptable, without considering that it's part of your concept and may not be part of theirs. This is the 'DEX war' or 'DEX inflation' you hear about. And I find that it constrains my ability to build the characters I want to build.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that having a CV of 8, or 9, or 13, is not inherently advantageous. The advantage lies in having a higher CV than your opponents. If the average CV among the opponents you expect to face is 6, then a CV of 8 gives you a +2 to-hit advantage. In a CV 7 environment, you need a 9 to get the same advantage. In a CV 11 environment, you need the 13. So, if your character concept includes 'unusually high combat skill', a high DEX average forces you to invest more of your character in DEX, which in turn encourages the next guy to buy a higher DEX. If you take the trend to it's logical conclusion, you'll see a bunch of PC's running around with 342 points invested in DEX, and the remaining 8 points devoted to whatever makes their character 'special'.

 

Obviously, I'm exaggerating. But the underlying truth is the same: DEX inflation means fewer points to spend on your actual character concept. Personally, I'd rather devote my points to making my character interesting and unique than to making another cookie-cutter DEX 28, SPD 6 superhero. Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with a DEX 28, SPD 6 character, just that if I can get the effect I want with a DEX 23, SPD 5 character, I've saved myself 20 points to spend on something else. When I have a character concept that is difficult to build, I often find myself economizing on DEX. Not because DEX isn't good, not because it doesn't hurt to lower it, but because it is so expensive that you can often eke out a lot of 'flavor' abilities for a relatively small reduction in combat effectiveness. And I can always comfort myself by claiming that I'm doing my part to combat DEX inflation.

 

If you want my advice, base your DEX purchase on a combination of factors:

 

-The most efficient value for the SPD and skill roll you desire.

-The CV value that will give you the advantage you want over your expected opponents (or the disadvantage you're willing to accept).

-The lowest value that will allow you to execute your character concept.

-The highest value that you can squeeze in after you've spent your other points on everything else you want. ('Cause it really is that good.)

 

Another thing to consider is the possibility of buying other skills & powers to reflect your character's 'agile' or 'dextrous' concept. Now, obviously, you don't want to go overboard here. If you want high CV, high SPD, high skill rolls and a high initiative value, then DEX is what you want. However, if you only want one of those things, to differentiate your character from everyone else, or to fit your concept, then you can often get that one thing cheaper than you could by investing another 15 points in DEX. This is the one case in which buying skill levels or Lightning Reflexes is more efficient than raw DEX. And, frankly, I think it makes for a more entertaining character. I'd much rather play a DEX 18 character with an unusually high Acrobatics roll than a DEX 28 character, if I thought the DEX 18 character wouldn't embarrass himself by being unable to hit my GM's CV 9 VIPER agents.

[levi]

Originally posted by lemming

...Though a couple of the characters are in an INT war. kinda odd, I've never seen three digit INT.

 

My group has started a PRE war. My WWII Super-soldier guy had a 35 PRE for the longest time, then other characters started entering that PRE neighborhood (30 - 40) so I am thinking of spending my next 15 XP on PRE to bring him up to 50 and reestablish him as THE most commanding presence in our games...lol

[Force]

"The advantage lies in having a higher CV than your opponents."

 

You have half of the story right.

 

It's also the fact you usually get to act first or go 'on delay'.

 

Both effects COMBINED is what makes dex THE bang for the buck for basic combat skill.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Haerandir

So, if your character concept includes 'unusually high combat skill', a high DEX average forces you to invest more of your character in DEX, which in turn encourages the next guy to buy a higher DEX.

 

Only if his character concept is "unusually high combat skill" as well.

 

If you take the trend to it's logical conclusion, you'll see a bunch of PC's running around with 342 points invested in DEX, and the remaining 8 points devoted to whatever makes their character 'special'.

 

Nope. Eventually you reach a point where buying Dex hinders you buying other important things, like Str and Energy Blast. I've found that in a 250 point game, you only want to go up to about a 26 Dex or so, because beyond that you get diminishing returns. Each point that you spent on Dex, the other guy spent on PD (or some other important thing). It's a balance, and anyone who goes overboard on Dex isn't balanced, and thus they are weak. WEAK!!!

[Emerald Mask]

Here is some scales from your Friendly Cosmic Nucleon;

 

Spiderman; Now that's agile; A DEX of 30-36 seems okay.

Beast (X-Men fame); 27-32 DEX

Black Panther; 24-27 DEX

Cap American; 21-23 DEX. And a truckload of CSLs

Thor; DEX 17-18. He has other ressources.

Iron Man; Dex 14-15, in or out of armor.

Hulk; DEX 11-12. The Green Behemoth likes to be touched; He's got an Area-affecting clap/stomp to get rid of these pesky speedsters.

Excellent I for one am tired of the dex wars- players need to stick witha concept and not worry about who goes first . I started one campaign and every player wanted to start at 27 dex. So they could have an edge, slow ponderous 4 spd brick 6 spedd martial arrtist , 7 speed movement master etc.

[Catacomb]

Depending on your campaign levels Wolverin is only going to be about two points lower than Spidey, and Nightcrawler is on Pete's level as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

I've seen a Dex war, yes. High-powered 4e game (260 point characters with 18d6 max attacks:eek: ), and one 'speedster' had a 44 DEX (campaign max was 45). I put speedster in quotes because his combat move was only 10" (noncombat was another story). The war was started because, on every segment he acted (SPD 7), the GM would call out the Segment Number, and the player would say, every time,

"I get to go first, because I have a 44 Dex."

 

Thus prompting someone else to create a Dex 45 flier for the express purpose of saying 'Wanna bet?'.

 

As far as Wolverine goes, I'd put him a full CV behind Spider-Man, maybe two. About on par with Captain America, Dex-wise, but not as many CSLs. Despite his bluster, he's not as good as Cap in a fight. I think last time I modelled them, Spidey was a 33, Cap a 29, and Wolverine a 26 Dex.

[Gary]

Re: Re: DEX costs

 

Originally posted by Champsguy

But this assumes far too much. For one, it assumes that Dex skill levels are worth 5 points per +1. I don't think they are. It assumes that Lightning Reflexes is priced correctly. I don't think it is. It assumes that CSLs are just OCV/DCV related. They aren't. It also assumes that Dex should cost the same as the sum of its parts. It shouldn't.

 

Combat levels have far greater versatility than people use them for. Just because your average Champions gamer doesn't think to put his levels into damage doesn't mean that Dex is overpriced (by the way, Dex doesn't add to damage, but CSLs can--therefore, Dex isn't just a cheaper form of CSL).

 

Lightning Reflexes were a Steve Long invention back in Dark Champions, but it's something that every Champs player I know created on his own, before ever seeing Dark Champs. I myself created Lightning Reflexes (but I think I just called it "Increased Initiative") before running across a used copy of DC. Everyone and their dog who created LR did it by limiting Dex. The real complaint I had with the official version is that I thought it was overpriced.

 

Dex shouldn't cost as much as the sum of its parts. Quite simply, it's always been the case in Champions that when you limit a power to get a specific effect (like Lightning Reflexes), you err on the side of too expensive. Does Not Affect Figured Characteristics is only -1/2, despite the fact that only Dex fits that cost scheme. Every other stat (Str, Body) should be a -1 or so, and Con loses just about all of its effectiveness, so the limitation there should be even higher. But again, you err on the side of too expensive. As a result, adding together the costs of Dex's components gives you a higher cost than Dex is worth. It's like stealing a car and selling off the parts. They're worth more than the car is whole.

 

No matter how you slice it though, +6 dex gets you a lot more than 18 pts of effectiveness, maybe not 41, but definitely over 18.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Nope. Eventually you reach a point where buying Dex hinders you buying other important things, like Str and Energy Blast. I've found that in a 250 point game, you only want to go up to about a 26 Dex or so, because beyond that you get diminishing returns. Each point that you spent on Dex, the other guy spent on PD (or some other important thing). It's a balance, and anyone who goes overboard on Dex isn't balanced, and thus they are weak. WEAK!!!

 

It depends on the average dex of the campaign. Dex is about the most cost effective thing you can purchase, until you get about 3-4 CV above the campaign average. If the average dex is 26, then purchasing your dex to 35 is quite effective. The diminishing returns aspect only comes into effect after that 3-4 CV difference, since going from 15- to hit to 16- to hit doesn't add that much. Conversely, dropping the other guy's to hit from 6- to 5- doesn't add too much either. However, going from 11- to 12- adds a lot.

[Mutant for Hire]

Just remember that AoE attacks are your friend if you're losing the DEX arms race. And for GMs, the whole point to a Hunted is that the villain in question is going to start adapting powers and tactics designed to deal with characters they can't hit.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Gary

It depends on the average dex of the campaign. Dex is about the most cost effective thing you can purchase, until you get about 3-4 CV above the campaign average. If the average dex is 26, then purchasing your dex to 35 is quite effective. The diminishing returns aspect only comes into effect after that 3-4 CV difference, since going from 15- to hit to 16- to hit doesn't add that much. Conversely, dropping the other guy's to hit from 6- to 5- doesn't add too much either. However, going from 11- to 12- adds a lot.

I agree. Several of the characters in my campaign have DEXs in the high teens to low 20s. We have a 29 DEX MA, a 33 DEX MA, and my own 38 DEX MA (And I don't ever expect to have her run into a higher DEX MA; by concept she is the most agile human on Earth.) A true Speedster might have a higher DEX to simulate his blinding speed and reflexes. Actually I think the DEXs in our campaign are just a little bit higher than they ought to be, but then our team isn't the new kids on the block either. We're the big leagues, the JLA/Avengers of our universe. So we should be a comfortable cut above normals and "average" characters.