Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Morningstar]

Stargazer& Nucleon,

 

When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this?

 

NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy??

 

Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE!

 

They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN.

 

As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!)

 

I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us!

 

I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

[Stargazer]

Morning star..u seem to forget the main about batman..and cap to a lesser extent (but just a hair worth) is there brain...

batman doesnt rely solely on his physical attributes..he rely mostly on his brain and expeirience.... when u say nighthawk and ironclad couldnt have higer dex and spd then bats..why not?? a whole lot of super heroes are way faster and more dexterous then bats...BUT!! batman relies on his intellect to beat a powered hero (were not talking common thugs here i hope..)

even tho bat is at peak human..( sorry didnt thatthe rule where u can increase ur stats pass max human was in the book always it was a house rule..im still unfamiliar with the 5th edition...) he has beat up much more powerful adversaries then himself...again relying on his extraordinary intelect...so he dont need a "super-human" dex (ive put that in quote cause not everyone sees the stats the same way...)

and of course is huge experience( CSL)

 

as for cap..same thing...the man is a master strategist...where brute strenght and high dex dont work his mind does the job...altho more of a brawler (in style) then batman, he uses is mind to beat a foe stronger then him...he doesnt need super high dex and spd...just good old fashion experience and tactics....

 

and true that both batman and captain america are worth alot more then 350...but they dont just have stats... lotsa skills perks, fringe benefits etc.....

 

but again this is just my humble opinion....

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Stargazer& Nucleon,

 

When you say things like Cap should have a 5 speed and Batman a 4 Speed, are you completely ignoring the over 100 characters that Hero Games has already provided for us? If you are simply saving that in "your universe" none of these characters would have the DEX and SPD scores they have, well fine, but The same people who created this game, and who's boards we are discussing this in, completely disagree with you! PLEASE ANSWER THIS!!! Would you but BATMAN in to the Champions universe with a 4 SPD and 20 DEX when dozens of trained normals have higher scores than this?

 

NIGHTHAWK of the Champions has a 25 DEX and 6 SPD and he is only a 350 point character! So Batman is slower than this guy??

 

Their brick IRONCLAD has a 20 DEX and 5 SPD. So the 350 point brick is faster and just as agile as BATMAN??? INSANE!

 

They have OBVIOUSLY established that it is ok for trained normals to have dexterity scores in the mid 20's and SPD scores to be at least 5 or 6 for this type of character, not to mention a top of the line very experienced, best of the best type like BATMAN.

 

As far as Captain America goes, are you ignoring that his CONCEPT and ORIGIN have ALWAYS been that he is a Strong, fast and tough as it is humanly possible to be! I commented before that those pesky guys at Champions(yes that game again) made TELIOS the perfect man fit that profile. They gave him 30 stats across the board except INT since he created the ability himself. Logically that makse me think Cap would hit these scores plus combat levels.(He is not a 350 point character!)

 

I think everyone understands that you think DEX scores are too high and levels are underused. But I think when most of us uses the example characters created by the same people who made the game, as a basis for our own characters that is quite valid. And then we naturally stat Iconic top of the line Marvel and DC characters high in that range, it makes sense to us!

 

I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way. Someone out there give me some affirmation!

 

Yes, excellent points. I have said this repeatedly in the past.

 

Look,

 

Person A wants to make a DEX 11 Spidey. Fine.

 

Person B wants to make a DEX 50 Juggernaut. Fine.

 

Person A plays one way, Person B plays another way. Fine.

 

That argument is neverending and, frankly, noone is REALLY wrong.

 

HOWEVER, in order to argue them logically and present them in an open forum as realistic, you have to have some kind of overall baseline to go from.

 

That baseline HAS to be the 100+ characters given us by the gamemakers. I see no other plausible solution.

 

I think everyone can assume, for example, that Nighthawk is a clone of Batman (for all intents and purposes). Well, more specifically, Batman-lite.

 

It is just not acceptable to me to make Batman himself weaker, slower, and clumsier than Nighthawk. I say again... gamewise the Superheroic genre ignores NCM for a reason.

 

There are no normal humans and 30 is maximum human potential in the Superheroic genre. Base your arguments off that.

[Gary]

For me, it's a matter that a 20 dex 4 spd Cap just won't be effective in game terms and a group setting.

 

The character with lots of cheap 3 pt CSL's is optimized in game terms to deal with one single pure martial arts opponent, or a single brick opponent with no large objects around.

 

In a 1 on 1 fight, you don't need both OCV and DCV. You merely need to set your levels to counter your opponents, so the cheap 3 pointers are just as good as the more expensive levels or dex.

 

However, you get crushed in a group fight since you need both OCV and DCV at the same time. And especially, you need DCV that can be used vs ranged attacks.

 

And that is the weakness with 3 pt levels, their lack of versatility and lack of ability to be used against ranged attacks. Dex is far superior.

 

The 4 speed Cap is also going to be spending most of any fight blocking or dodging, and thus won't actually be able to take out any opponents and won't be terribly useful to a superteam. After all, if you abort twice per turn, you only have 2 effective actions while everybody else gets their normal allotment.

[Rick]

The only way a 20 dex 4 spd Cap won't be effective is if you scale your spd and dex towards the high end. In a game where spidey is a 26 dex 5-6 spd, a 20 Dex 4spd cap Will kick all kinds of ass. He'd, W/enough levels wipe the floor W/agents and because of his high CV's and other skill levels he'd give everyone else a damn good fight as well.

[Stargazer]

i was never talking about those 3pts csl...im talking the whole combat CSL....which can be use for both ocv dcv and dc(altho not sure for the dc part...)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

 

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

If one thing Nucleon is gonna say is true, you truly are pugnacious, Milenial Master Gary. Nucleon Tips His Cosmic Crown to you.

 

Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

 

Truth is, rarely these icons are as optimized as you generic Champion characters. That's what makes their charm.

 

What I want for Cap is combat effectiveness. I do not want it as a DEX by-product, I want it now.

 

It's like coming home with golf bag, bird cage, and a bulldozer while saying "Wow, 50% off! Look at all the money I just saved!" when all you wanted was a hammer. Not only did you didn't need all those bells and whistles but you're also out of concept if you play a Batman-type, or a guy in power suit (I don't care what's been done before; this is pure rethoric).

 

(Sight)A DEX augmented by 15 costs 45. Let's say you buy back the SPD and buy 3 to 5 CSLs with the currency saved, because you want to play a combat master. So you bought for max 10 CVs. Good.

 

Or you can buy 9 to 15 CSLs, giving you a bonus CV of max 15. +50%. You're better in combat. So you're not as agile as if you could spit in your own arse; not as much proactive, DEX-skilled or even polyvalent, but you do kick-a-boot in what you do. Plus, you can choose to do more damage at the expense of some CVs. Good versus brick like foes, who are typically lower in CV (I wont open that door). That's not munchkinism, that's not exaggeration, you are simply playing a character who is more Trained than Naturaly Agile. You control more that way. You got decisions to make. The game gets more strategic (End of sight).

 

In fact, high and a bit off DEX score I find useful when creating powerful ennemies to throw in versus the PCs, moreso if the later outnumbers the formers. That way they're fast, and have reasonable CVs to hit and be hit as well. Plus, they're more easy to manage, OCV/DVC speaking.

 

Mmmmh. The Stars did take on a curious Conjoncture. Nucleon Has Too Long Spoken, mortals. He shall find Solace in your Indulgence.

[Morningstar]

Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

 

BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give me a stroke! Are Starlord and I the only ones that actually use the 100+ characters created by the Champions makers as benchmarks and examples?? Some of these are such obvious take offs of existing comic characters it is very hard to ignore! Of all of these the slowest, clumsiest, least points one I have seen has a 4 SPD. Who is insane enough to plug in a Captain America that is the bottom of the barrel in combat actions per round?

 

Pick up CC&C and look at the back table. Of 90 characters here are the SPD's: 10=4, 47=5, 23=6, 4=7, 6=8. Of these 90 characters only 10 have less than a 20 DEX You would put Cap in that bottom 10 in combat manuevers per round?

 

SCORPIA: little Irish girl grows up, joins the IRA, becomes a terrorist, she has a 24 DEX and 5 SPD.

 

WARPATH:American Indian girl grows up on a reservation shooting arrows until she is really good. 25 DEX 5 SPD

 

Captain America 20DEX 4 SPD????? OUT OF YOUR MINDS!

[Nucleon]

Ah well. Here again.

 

Originally posted by Gary

For me, it's a matter that a 20 dex 4 spd Cap just won't be effective in game terms and a group setting. (...) you get crushed in a group fight since you need both OCV and DCV at the same time. And especially, you need DCV that can be used vs ranged attacks.

 

And that is the weakness with 3 pt levels, their lack of versatility and lack of ability to be used against ranged attacks. Dex is far superior.

 

Blocking and Deflecting with the shield in the same action makes plenty of sense to me. Obviously not for you, eh?

 

The 4 speed Cap is also going to be spending most of any fight blocking or dodging, and thus won't actually be able to take out any opponents and won't be terribly useful to a superteam. After all, if you abort twice per turn, you only have 2 effective actions while everybody else gets their normal allotment.

 

If you aborted twice per turn in a group setting like you said, and succeed, you just saved your teamates 2 potentatially lethal attacks. A relatively low DEX of 20 also alloys you to cancel soon after you've attacked. And when you do attack, you hit, and often you hurt.

 

That's team effectiveness enough for me.

 

A 4 SPD Cap is no disgrace. Nor is Batman.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give me a stroke! Are Starlord and I the only ones that actually use the 100+ characters created by the Champions makers as benchmarks and examples?? Some of these are such obvious take offs of existing comic characters it is very hard to ignore! Of all of these the slowest, clumsiest, least points one I have seen has a 4 SPD. Who is insane enough to plug in a Captain America that is the bottom of the barrel in combat actions per round?

 

Captain America 20DEX 4 SPD????? OUT OF YOUR MINDS! [/b]

 

Why didn't I put Cap at DEX 30 and SPD 6?

 

BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T BE FREAKING CAP!! You guys are going to give Nucleon a stroke!

 

I Really don't care about who the Champion-U characters are supposed to be. If I ever use them, I'll probably alter them if they're not of my liking, but chances are I'll make my own. There's no "Cap" in my campaign, but there are lots of dex 6-11, SPD 3-4 that my players have painfully learned to loathe and fear.

 

Don't you have no normals in your games?

 

If there was such a thing as Cap, he would start at 250 with nearly all-top NCM (STR-DEX-CON 20, SPD 4) and he would maybe upgrade to a 28 STR, 23 DEX, 25 CON and SPD 5, all paid double over NCM, for ± 450-500 pts overall over the years. There.

 

And you know what? He would kick arse.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

The only way a 20 dex 4 spd Cap won't be effective is if you scale your spd and dex towards the high end. In a game where spidey is a 26 dex 5-6 spd, a 20 Dex 4spd cap Will kick all kinds of ass. He'd, W/enough levels wipe the floor W/agents and because of his high CV's and other skill levels he'd give everyone else a damn good fight as well.

 

You'd have to scale every single published character down if you had a 26 dex 5 spd Spidey or a 20 dex 4 spd Cap.

 

And then you'd have a major problem when the 14 Dex 3 Spd agents with 1-2 skill levels start hitting Cap with regularity. In the comics, Cap takes on dozens of AIM or Hydra agents with regularity. He couldn't with a 20 dex 4 spd.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

If one thing Nucleon is gonna say is true, you truly are pugnacious, Milenial Master Gary. Nucleon Tips His Cosmic Crown to you.

 

Why not give "Cap" a 60 STR as well? Think about it; for each 5 pts of STR, you get 1 pt of PD, 1pts of REC, 2.5 pts of STUN, 1 DC of damage and 1" of leaping. That's 10.5 pts for 5. "Cap" would sure be more effective with a 60 STR! Super-serum you see.

 

Truth is, rarely these icons are as optimized as you generic Champion characters. That's what makes their charm.

 

Conception. Since Champions has stated that 30 is absolute peak potential human max, that's what Cap should have.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

What I want for Cap is combat effectiveness. I do not want it as a DEX by-product, I want it now.

 

It's like coming home with golf bag, bird cage, and a bulldozer while saying "Wow, 50% off! Look at all the money I just saved!" when all you wanted was a hammer. Not only did you didn't need all those bells and whistles but you're also out of concept if you play a Batman-type, or a guy in power suit (I don't care what's been done before; this is pure rethoric).

 

(Sight)A DEX augmented by 15 costs 45. Let's say you buy back the SPD and buy 3 to 5 CSLs with the currency saved, because you want to play a combat master. So you bought for max 10 CVs. Good.

 

Or you can buy 9 to 15 CSLs, giving you a bonus CV of max 15. +50%. You're better in combat. So you're not as agile as if you could spit in your own arse; not as much proactive, DEX-skilled or even polyvalent, but you do kick-a-boot in what you do. Plus, you can choose to do more damage at the expense of some CVs. Good versus brick like foes, who are typically lower in CV (I wont open that door). That's not munchkinism, that's not exaggeration, you are simply playing a character who is more Trained than Naturaly Agile. You control more that way. You got decisions to make. The game gets more strategic (End of sight).

 

Those 3 pt levels with MA cannot be used vs ranged attacks! Those swarms of Hydra agents would mop the floor with a Cap with only 3 pt levels. If you start buying 5 or 8 pt levels, you'll lose any cost savings at all. Dex is a far better simulator of Cap in the comics since none of those agents ever hit him. And he definitely acts more than 33% more often than one agent. A low dex Cap is not supported by the comics that I read.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

In fact, high and a bit off DEX score I find useful when creating powerful ennemies to throw in versus the PCs, moreso if the later outnumbers the formers. That way they're fast, and have reasonable CVs to hit and be hit as well. Plus, they're more easy to manage, OCV/DVC speaking.

 

Mmmmh. The Stars did take on a curious Conjoncture. Nucleon Has Too Long Spoken, mortals. He shall find Solace in your Indulgence.

 

High dex scores are useful for everyone.

[Gary]

Re: Ah well. Here again.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Blocking and Deflecting with the shield in the same action makes plenty of sense to me. Obviously not for you, eh?

 

We have to have a baseline for any discussion. I'm simply using the rules as published for my baseline. I'm not interested in house rules because then either of us could make anything up that we want.

 

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

If you aborted twice per turn in a group setting like you said, and succeed, you just saved your teamates 2 potentatially lethal attacks. A relatively low DEX of 20 also alloys you to cancel soon after you've attacked. And when you do attack, you hit, and often you hurt.

 

That's team effectiveness enough for me.

 

A 4 SPD Cap is no disgrace. Nor is Batman.

 

Doesn't fit the comics. Cap in the comics does take out opponents with regularity. He's not merely the team defensive guy.

[Rick]

There in lies the trick everyone gets scaled to the appropriate level. Yes if a score of hydra agents W/3 speeds and 13 dexs attacked him, cap could W/the proper levels kick their asses. Hey in my world cap is a 23 dex 5 spd maybe a 6 spd on the high end. Hero is a scalable system, that's one of the beauties of it, we can both write up cap differently and they'd work properly in our own worlds.

 

We aren't saying that cap can't be a 30 dex we're saying he doesn't have to be.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Stargazer

i was never talking about those 3pts csl...im talking the whole combat CSL....which can be use for both ocv dcv and dc(altho not sure for the dc part...)

 

8 pt skill levels are inefficient, even if they fit Cap's conception. An example of how the rules penalize certain conceptions.

[Rick]

Oh yeah as far as the hero published characters go...they don't define how I write up my games, as I believe is obvious.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Rick

There in lies the trick everyone gets scaled to the appropriate level. Yes if a score of hydra agents W/3 speeds and 13 dexs attacked him, cap could W/the proper levels kick their asses. Hey in my world cap is a 23 dex 5 spd maybe a 6 spd on the high end. Hero is a scalable system, that's one of the beauties of it, we can both write up cap differently and they'd work properly in our own worlds.

 

We aren't saying that cap can't be a 30 dex we're saying he doesn't have to be.

 

Sure, if you buy enough 8 pt CSLs with the 23 dex 5 spd Cap, you'll get the same net result. However, Cap in the comics has exhibited both High OCV and High DCV at the same time, has initiative over virtually everybody else, and has amazing dex skill rolls. You can buy lots of 8 pt CSLs, lots of lightning reflexes, and 5 pt skill levels for dex based skills. Or you can do the easy thing and buy dex.

[Morningstar]

Nucleon & Rick,

You have to understand that telepathy is a power in the game, none of us actually possess it. No one knows your house rules and the fact that you dont use any of the champions characters in your game except you. What we ALL have is access to the books champions publishes so that is an easy forum for discussion or debate.

 

As far as you saying a 30 DEX 6 SPD not being Cap. I have given many examples of why that is appropriate for (again) the game that we all have access to.

 

As for your question "don't you have normals in your game"?

 

Yes, SCORPIA, WARPATH,NIGHTHAWK are all normals with expert training. They are not superhuman.The game is filled with them. Again do you see we are using the game as published? When you decide to rewrite every character in the game, it makes our common ground for discussion disappear.

 

For whoever said"I've been reading Cap for 25 years and he has no more than a 23 dex max"..You must be using house rules too, or you think becoming an IRA terrorist, or growing up on an indian reservation can give you superhuman speed and agility.

[Nucleon]

Re: Re: Ah well. Here again.

 

Originally posted by Gary

We have to have a baseline for any discussion. I'm simply using the rules as published for my baseline. I'm not interested in house rules because then either of us could make anything up that we want.

 

Oh please. This is no house rule, but optional rule. You yourself have bring the FAQ answer about it a few post back.

 

Plus, it makes plenty of senses.

 

Doesn't fit the comics. Cap in the comics does take out opponents with regularity. He's not merely the team defensive guy.

 

Obviously, you're no Avenger reader. In Ultimates (I loathe that "parallel universe") you're maybe right about him, but in the regular series, Cap's no big gun; he is a tactician.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

As for your question "don't you have normals in your game"?

 

Yes, SCORPIA, WARPATH,NIGHTHAWK are all normals with expert training. They are not superhuman.The game is filled with them. Again do you see we are using the game as published? When you decide to rewrite every character in the game, it makes our common ground for discussion disappear.

 

I wouldn't say that Champion's published characters are common ground for relativity.

 

NCMs and the STR table are.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Those 3 pt levels with MA cannot be used vs ranged attacks! Those swarms of Hydra agents would mop the floor with a Cap with only 3 pt levels. If you start buying 5 or 8 pt levels, you'll lose any cost savings at all. Dex is a far better simulator of Cap in the comics since none of those agents ever hit him. And he definitely acts more than 33% more often than one agent. A low dex Cap is not supported by the comics that I read.

 

A DEX 20-23 Cap with superhuman training is plenty enough to take on Hydra agents. Works well with sweep.

 

Even considering how rough a time you got with block/Deflect, Martial Dodge can be used against ranged attacks.

 

But I wouldn't have too if I'd take on this Hydra horde with Cap. A DCV 15-16 and OCV 14-15 should be plenty enough.

 

(As long, of course, as those Hydra agents are not STR 30, DEX 27 and SPD 6 "normals".)

[Pattern Ghost]

Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents...

 

Here's the deal:

 

Cap has:

 

One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe

One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe

A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels

 

If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX.

 

He also has:

 

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield

A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based.

The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down.

The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

 

That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place.

 

Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.

 

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

 

Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort.

 

From page 57:

 

Beyond Competent is Legendary. Few humans reach this lofty plateau; generally speaking, ordinary people never obtain it. Only truly exceptional individuals -- heroes and superheroes -- have Legendary Characteristics. The upper limit of Legendary is the upper limit of normal human attainment.

 

Let's parse that, shall we?

 

Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement.

 

"Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau.

 

"heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there.

 

"Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional.

 

"...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell.

 

The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero.

 

If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5.

 

Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Yeah, and all Cap fights are hordes of Hydra agents...

 

Here's the deal:

 

Cap has:

 

One of the best initiatives in the Marvel Universe

One of the highest CVs in the Marvel Universe

A boatload of DEX-Based skills at high levels

 

If I got a character sheet with a bunch of DEX-Fudges like Lightning Reflexes, CSLs, and Levels with DEX Skills, I'd hand it back and tell the player just to buy the stupid DEX.

 

He also has:

 

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield

A huge habit of using that shield against superhuman attacks, including ranged and strength based.

The ability to run through vast hordes of agents, and take them down.

The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

 

That's SPEED, folks. If he has a 4 Speed, he'll run out of actions to abort to WAY too soon, and NEVER go on the offense. He cannot sweep agents who aren't standing adjacent to each other. He could sweep and move, though. A SPD of 6 is totally reasonable, and a heck of a lot easier to read on a sheet, and to adjudicate than a buttload of special attacks and PSLs cluttering up the place.

 

Cap's performance is best modelled by a high DEX and at LEAST a 6 SPD. The "concept is king" argument doesn't wash when it gets in the way of gameplay.

 

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

 

Also, if you want to use the NCM discussion and tables as a basis of argument, try reading the Champions Genre book and seeing what it has to say on the subject. I'll save you the effort.

 

From page 57:

 

 

 

Let's parse that, shall we?

 

Upper limits of Legendary are 30 for primaries and DEF 15, SPD 6-7, REC 11-13, END and STUN 60, and higher than NCM movement.

 

"Few humans reach this lofty plateau.." Stever Rogers was given a drug and radiation therapy specifically to reach this plateau. He is the freaking poster child for this plateau.

 

"heroes and superheroes" I think Cap qualifies there.

 

"Only truly exceptional individuals..." Again, he's the poster child for truly exceptional.

 

"...is the upper limit of normal human attainment." CONCEPT CONCEPT CONCEPT.... that IS Cap's concept, in the nutshell.

 

The NCM = 20 and SPD 4 argument is a moot point dealing with Cap or any other superhero.

 

If you're bored and want to throw away WAY more points than you net from taking NCM when building him, that's fine, but he's not capped at 20/4, or even 23/5.

 

Now, if you want to build a low-speed Cap, there is a whole sidebar on lowering the NCM threshold, and since Cap exceeds that threshold to the maximum attainable by normals -- the maximum a normal can buy over NCM -- you'd want to adjust that NCM threshold. Cap is the benchmark, though, and if you impose NCM on him, he's going to end up buying over in any event. There's threshold, then there's max you can buy over, which is Cap-land.

 

I think that about sums it up. Brilliant.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

He also has:

 

Mediocre defenses without blocking/deflecting with his shield (...)

The ability to make an offensive attack a panel after doing a bunch of deflections.

CSLs, and a humble enough DEX so he can cancel almost immediatly after an attck..

 

If you think the NCM rules are what to go by instead of the NPCs, I suggest you read them, b/c taking NCM is an OPTION. You don't have to take the disadvantage. What would be the point in taking NCM for 20 pts of Disads if you're going to spend over 20 pts buying abilities (STR, some DEX, and CON were noted earlier as buy ups) over NCM anyway? NCM should either be a campaign rule or not be used, and has no real place in a supers game.

NCMs are a disavantage in my campaign. NOT a rule. How would I roleplay someone who's proud of his humanity and is looked by the masses as "just a man, like one of us" if I buy a SPD 6 like if it was a new shirt?

 

Here is an interesting bit.

 

In Avenger no 170 (The Korvak Saga, where Cap's no slouch), Cap is training, and is sweating lifting a 500 lbs barbel bar. While doing so, he tells Beast "...I don't have any special powers like the rest of you".

 

500 lbs is roughly 227 kg. It takes a STR of 15 to lift 200 kg, and 18 to lift 300 kg. The Guiness book of world records says that 302.5 kg is the heaviest mass lifted off the ground by a man.

 

Doesn't Cap supposed to be the pinacle of human performance? Can he lift 1200 kg (STR 28), or even 600 kg (STR 23)?

 

Same thing for DEX or SPD for that matter.

 

I think you guys have somewhat lost perspective. It seems to me like your heroes belong more to the 90s Image stuff, drawn by Liefield. They could vanquish these icons of yours such as Cap on any given day. But would they sell?

 

Without concept, no, of course.

 

Abdicate, mortals!

[Gary]

Re: Re: Re: Ah well. Here again.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Oh please. This is no house rule, but optional rule. You yourself have bring the FAQ answer about it a few post back.

 

Plus, it makes plenty of senses.

 

An optional rule is a house rule. In the official rules, a Cap with just CSLs won't work.

 

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Obviously, you're no Avenger reader. In Ultimates (I loathe that "parallel universe") you're maybe right about him, but in the regular series, Cap's no big gun; he is a tactician.

 

He also takes down his share of opponents. He does not just sit around aborting phase after phase.